[Max Minimum]

   
You're right, my terminology may have been off. The Layla is definitely a warm sounding IEM. They aren't clinical, as in being biased toward the higher frequencies. However, they sound very lifeless to my ears. It's definitely a great earphone for picking up nuances and micro detail. Its soundstage is also immense, matching the Roxanne's. However, in terms of a musical and fun experience, I found the Layla less than stunning.

Ah, okay.  That's interesting.  That's how I felt about the NAD HP50 at first, but then I think brain-burn set in.  I find them pretty groovy now.  Is the sound a little soft maybe?  Every so often, I'll still hear a song with the NADs and think to myself, "well, the edges of everything seem well-defined, but those edges are round instead of sharp."

 

[MacedonianHero]

   
You're right, my terminology may have been off. The Layla is definitely a warm sounding IEM. They aren't clinical, as in being biased toward the higher frequencies. However, they sound very lifeless to my ears. It's definitely a great earphone for picking up nuances and micro detail. Its soundstage is also immense, matching the Roxanne's. However, in terms of a musical and fun experience, I found the Layla less than stunning.

 
Unless the bass was cranked up all the way, they Layla's are dead reference level on the minimum bass setting to my ears.

 

[M-13]

Describing Layla frequency response as anything other than neutral is just baffling to me personally. Terms like warm/laid back/bright/recessed don't really apply here. It's pretty much dead neutral (in a good way). There is supreme evenness/coherence and refinement. It presents all of the information effortlessly without emphasizing a single portion of it. It lacks coloration, and there is real breathtaking beauty hidden inside the calm.
 
I think a first time listener can be fooled into thinking it is boring or flat sounding, but once you get to know the Layla she is anything but those things. There is incredible beauty/refinement to the presentation. The sheer joy from the out-of-this-world coherence and utter-transparency gets me more involved in the music than phones tuned for fun or a "musical" tuning. Those colorations get old fast while Layla's tuning is timeless. Layla's transparency gets you closer to the source of the music, the studio where it was recorded or the concert it was recorded than any other phone I've experienced, to the point where I'm still in shock after over a month of ownership.
 
Layla's incredible coherence is baffling because it doesn't just sound like one driver, I've heard plenty of those, but it sound even more coherent than a single driver. The Layla made me a believer of the whole FreqPhase, Wave Guide technology mumble jumble. It wasn't just marketing BS. It somehow sounds more coherent, more whole than a single driver. One of those impossible things about the Layla.

 

[AUserName501]

Removed.

 

[dj nellie]

Not sure if this has been posted and discussed elsewhere, but I was looking around for videos about the Layla and Angie and found Jerry's talk at Google from about a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inno2Lj8H5g

The moderator and most of the audience questions were pretty bad, but I found a few things interesting from his talk:

1. Jerry didn't voluntarily leave (or sell his share in) Ultimate Ears - apparently, that was the decision of his venture capital investors.

2. It's hardest to get high frequency extension in IEMs, which might explain why that's the only frequency range which was given quad drivers on the Angie - maybe if cost has to be taken into account, then you'd rather lose the quad lows and quad mids rather than the quad highs.

3. Jerry doesn't think that the technology of high-end IEMs will trickle down to the budget range, because there are only 2 manufacturers which make certain key parts (he didn't specify which parts - maybe drivers?) and those manufacturers are keeping prices high.

4. He referenced demand in "Southeast Asia" several times as driving the high-end market, which is something to keep in mind when complaining about the price of his products - there are loads of dudes in places like Singapore, Jakarta and Hong Kong lining up to buy his stuff.

 

[Iron-Buddha]

I watched the same video.  It was interesting to get a brief summary of how the IEM market developed and Jerry Harvey's key involvement in a lot of it.    There is no doubt that he knows what he is doing when it comes to pushing the envelope.  When I listen to the Angie's, there is nothing in the sound that makes me go "Oh yeah, they dropped 2 mids, and 2 lows", so the tuning is done very well.

 

[goodvibes]

Not sure if this has been posted and discussed elsewhere, but I was looking around for videos about the Layla and Angie and found Jerry's talk at Google from about a year ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inno2Lj8H5g

The moderator and most of the audience questions were pretty bad, but I found a few things interesting from his talk:

1. Jerry didn't voluntarily leave (or sell his share in) Ultimate Ears - apparently, that was the decision of his venture capital investors.

2. It's hardest to get high frequency extension in IEMs, which might explain why that's the only frequency range which was given quad drivers on the Angie - maybe if cost has to be taken into account, then you'd rather lose the quad lows and quad mids rather than the quad highs.

3. Jerry doesn't think that the technology of high-end IEMs will trickle down to the budget range, because there are only 2 manufacturers which make certain key parts (he didn't specify which parts - maybe drivers?) and those manufacturers are keeping prices high.

4. He referenced demand in "Southeast Asia" several times as driving the high-end market, which is something to keep in mind when complaining about the price of his products - there are loads of dudes in places like Singapore, Jakarta and Hong Kong lining up to buy his stuff.

He had to make the Layla for this reason. Folks complain about pricing and I can never think of a good reason why. Market drives product and not the other way around. As long as he makes good things at lower prices, I'm good. Thank god he included the Angie with the same tech for us mere mortals. 

 If it was just about greed, he'd have held off the introduction of the Angie. 

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: goodvibes

 

  He had to make the Layla for this reason. Folks complain about pricing and I can never think of a good reason why. Market drives product and not the other way around. As long as he makes good things at lower prices, I'm good. Thank god he included the Angie with the same tech for us mere mortals. 

 If it was just about greed, he'd have held off the introduction of the Angie. 

 

 
By pricing so high JH Audio has pushed the bar for what other high end CIEM makers can charge for their flagship products. If you make a 12 or 14 driver CIEM then it will likely end up costing $2000 or higher now and it is unlikely the Layla will drop in price. So for the consumer it is not good. I have to wonder what the percentage of profit is on the Layla because I really don't want a situation where there is a higher percentage of profit on flagships than the cheaper models.
 
The lack of competition in high end balanced armatures is also bad. With headphones generally the maker such as Sennheiser will make their own drivers and be in control of the production of that driver. With balanced armatures this isn't the case and they are buying a product from Knowles who will want a profit margin and aren't as invested as JH Audio in making better balanced armatures because they don't have competition.

 

[Malevolent]

  Ah, okay.  That's interesting.  That's how I felt about the NAD HP50 at first, but then I think brain-burn set in.  I find them pretty groovy now.  Is the sound a little soft maybe?  Every so often, I'll still hear a song with the NADs and think to myself, "well, the edges of everything seem well-defined, but those edges are round instead of sharp."

 
Yes, I see what you mean. Whilst my experience has not been thoroughly positive, I am not going to write off the Layla just yet. I'll definitely give it another go sometime soon. This time, I'll go in without any (lofty) expectations.
 

 
Unless the bass was cranked up all the way, they Layla's are dead reference level on the minimum bass setting to my ears.

 
The Layla's bass level was at its lowest setting. In fact, I kept looking at the bass dial throughout my 40 mins audition, expecting to see it cranked up several notches. But no, they were always at its minimum.

 

[goodvibes]

 

Spoiler: Quote: goodvibes

 

 
By pricing so high JH Audio has pushed the bar for what other high end CIEM makers can charge for their flagship products. If you make a 12 or 14 driver CIEM then it will likely end up costing $2000 or higher now and it is unlikely the Layla will drop in price. So for the consumer it is not good. I have to wonder what the percentage of profit is on the Layla because I really don't want a situation where there is a higher percentage of profit on flagships than the cheaper models.
 
The lack of competition in high end balanced armatures is also bad. With headphones generally the maker such as Sennheiser will make their own drivers and be in control of the production of that driver. With balanced armatures this isn't the case and they are buying a product from Knowles who will want a profit margin and aren't as invested as JH Audio in making better balanced armatures because they don't have competition.

So? If the market isn't there, the product will wither. There is obviously a market for cost no object best you can make type products. He could have charged more and easily justified it compared to how much less you get per dollar elsewhere, even when considering that much of his competition manufactures in lower costs environments. What does it matter if another maker exceeds this pricing as long as things get better and more reasonable items are also available? I see no lack of good $50 iems because of the Layla nor is the jh5 any worse due to it. Not making it would be ignoring a market segment which would just be silly for where JHA is placed.

 

[AUserName501]

Spoiler: Quote: Malevolent

Originally Posted by Malevolent /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 
Yes, I see what you mean. Whilst my experience has not been thoroughly positive, I am not going to write off the Layla just yet. I'll definitely give it another go sometime soon. This time, I'll go in without any (lofty) expectations.
 
 
The Layla's bass level was at its lowest setting. In fact, I kept looking at the bass dial throughout my 40 mins audition, expecting to see it cranked up several notches. But no, they were always at its minimum.

 
A higher resistance in the variable resistor should reduce the bass more. When you rotate the screw you are lowering the resistance in the resistor for the bass drivers which changes their frequency response and makes them louder. I don't know if Layla, Roxanne and Angie use the same variable resistor.

 

[speedracer1]

   
Yes, I see what you mean. Whilst my experience has not been thoroughly positive, I am not going to write off the Layla just yet. I'll definitely give it another go sometime soon. This time, I'll go in without any (lofty) expectations.
 
 
The Layla's bass level was at its lowest setting. In fact, I kept looking at the bass dial throughout my 40 mins audition, expecting to see it cranked up several notches. But no, they were always at its minimum.

Malevolent,
 
What was the source equipment you were connected too at the time of listening?  Does the equipment have equalization enabled? If so did you try to modify the settings? Were you very familiar with the source recordings?  What tips were you using (foam, silicon)?  All these elements can effect your listening impression
 
-Speed

 

[MacedonianHero]

Malevolent,

What was the source equipment you were connected too at the time of listening?  Does the equipment have equalization enabled? If so did you try to modify the settings? Were you very familiar with the source recordings?  What tips were you using (foam, silicon)?  All these elements can effect your listening impression

-Speed

Exactly my thoughts too. With the bass set to minimum the Layla's are as dead neutral as I've heard. Any "less warm", they'd be on the cold/bright side of neutral.

My source amp/DAC is primarily the AK100II, but I've had similar results from my GD-X Mk2 / Metrum Hex.

 

[shotgunshane]

Dead neutral to what objective standard?  Since IEM measurements must be compensated for, are they neutral to diffuse field compensation standards? Olive-Welti compensation? Golden Ears modified compensation? Personally I find Olive-Welti's compensation a bit on the warm side of neutral but then I find diffuse field to be slightly shy in bass below 100hz.  GE's compensation target is just weird. I would love to see some raw and diffuse field measurements to compare to my UERM.
 
Anyway it appears I may get to audition the Layla this weekend.  Looking forward to it but by all accounts it seems as if Angie is more suited to my tastes, at least from the various impressions.

 

[Iron-Buddha]

 
So? If the market isn't there, the product will wither. There is obviously a market for cost no object best you can make type products. He could have charged more and easily justified it compared to how much less you get per dollar elsewhere, even when considering that much of his competition manufactures in lower costs environments. What does it matter if another maker exceeds this pricing as long as things get better and more reasonable items are also available? I see no lack of good $50 iems because of the Layla nor is jh5 any worse due to it. Not making it would be ignoring a market segment which would just be silly for where JHA is placed.

Agree.  After seeing the Layla in person, there is no doubt that a chunk of the price went into the aesthetics of the thing, because it is beautifully made.   The carrying case in photos looks ridiculous as well.  The cost of making all of that in the U.S. couldn't be cheap.  Add in distributor/retail mark-up (A&K and the retailer each need to take a cut) it doesn't surprise me that it is where it is even if most of the cost didn't go into improving sound quality, which we can all guess at but will never know.   I think you would have a hard time justifying the premium solely on sound quality, in my opinion.  But as a package, it is a luxury product (in spite of the "made for sound engineers" marketing) that has the performance to back up the asking price.  More problematic would be a premium product that was all hype fueled by blind greed.   I personally don't think this is the case here but I also chose not to buy it. 
 
There will always be a market for another company to offer similar sound quality in a more basic package at a lower price (if it can be done).   I'm not worried about consumer choice with all this competition in the market.