[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think that Boilingfrog has suffered far more.

I'm not trying to diminish Boilingfrogs losses but what I meant is Ken could potentially lose far more financially than Boilingfrog or Jena and have his business hurt far more than Jena as well.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're now talking about posting reviews on HF

No, I'm not. But it is nevertheless applicable to both scenarios.

Quote:

This one review pretty much killed all the companies NA sales for a couple of years at least and almost put them out of business altogether.

Get your hand off it. That would assume that every single one of this company's intended market read that review, and applied it to their entire product line. I find that VERY hard to believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Again, I heard them as sounding wonderful, they are R10s after all.

This is EXACTLY the problem I'm talking about. It seems quite clear to me that you were listening to the name of the headphones, rather than the headphones themselves.

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is stuff like this that makes reviews almost worthless.

bingo--we have a winner!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM /img/forum/go_quote.gif So because reviewers can't risk losing manufacturers ads, you have no problem with them ONLY writing positive reviews?

a problem with it? i am so numb to it, it doesn't phase me anymore. this is the unadulterated crude and unflattering reality, which we are certainly painting with an exceedingly broad and wide brush.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PITTM /img/forum/go_quote.gif This kind of attitude being exposed seems like it should lead to the end of credible, professional audio reviews, which is certainly a bad thing.

no tude, but hopeful more people open their eyes to this element or at least thinking about it when reading any review. different perspective--it is a very good thing, if readers are skeptical and take these audio reviews with a big grain of salt.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Get your hand off it. That would assume that every single one of this company's intended market read that review, and applied it to their entire product line. I find that VERY hard to believe.

Believe what you like, I actually worked for the company a couple of years after the fact so I know what the situation was when I started. Fact is they were a small company that were trying to get their feet under them and after that review it was almost impossible for them to find dealers and get a foothold in NA. This is well before the internet had such dominance in our lives so magazines like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound were the main resources for the audiophile community. Those magazines still have a significant voice to influence the community but I don't think it's anything like it was.

Again, I'm not trying to say the idea of reviewers/magazines sending back gear is necessarily right, heck I don't even know for sure that it's actually done, I've just heard allusions to it. I do think it would be right in certain situations but I also think for the most part a professional reviewer should be able to determine the positive and negatives about a piece and present them in an unbiased fashion. Is this truly possible? I don't know, to be honest I don't read many professional reviews anymore as my main audio interest is now headphones and none of the major magazines seem to take headphones seriously so most of the reviews I read are here on HF or other headphone related sites. I did have a subscription to Stereophile for a couple of years recently and for the most part I didn't see the reviews as being over the top glowing but any negativity was fairly tempered as well. Or maybe I've just become numb to it.

As 909 says readers should be skeptical and take what they read with a grain of salt.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefy /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is EXACTLY the problem I'm talking about. It seems quite clear to me that you were listening to the name of the headphones, rather than the headphones themselves.

I've sat back for hundreds of posts in this thread, but I can't ignore this. You've gotta be freaking kidding me? You must be a politician, to be able to do such a superb job at spinning what Ken just said. I have to applaud you, I've never seen it done so well, and so transparently. Regardless of the fact that you are completely wrong about Ken.

I sat back and watched people speculate about whether the R10 were bad when he listened or not, and knowing that Ken and I have listened to the same thing and had the same impression, I wasn't worried because with what I know about Ken I believe they sounded good if he says they did.

There is no way to prove they were bad when he listened. So, instead you managed to completely change the issue from "were they good or bad before the review" to "Ken is too easily swayed by the brand to hear correctly". I say that is a crock of excrement. YOU CREATED A PRETTY LITTLE SAYING about "listening to the brand/model and not the headphone", and some people will read it with some grain of truth that never existed. And the straw-man argument distracts from the real issue, so instead of dealing with whether JL or SW is telling the truth, or some blend of the truth, the thread now goes off on a different witch-hunting tangent.

I think an apology is due to Ken.

 

[AC1]

No offense to Ken, but you guys think just because he is in the audio biz, he knows what "good" or even "right" sound is. Sure it depends on preference as well which makes it even more complicated.

I'll tell you guys a head-fi story to illustrate why I don't trust anyones ears other than my own...
I bought a pair of HP-2s from a pretty established member at the time. It ended up having a blown driver with the top end in one side diminished. Sent it back to him, and he said it was fine. He didn't hear any problems with it! Well we argued over reimbursement of shipping and he posted on head-fi about the issue where he I was a reliable buyer, but he did not believe there was a problem (he returned the money fine just not shipping, so I doubt he was scamming me to go through all that trouble).

The kicker is later on he sold it to another member which I ended up meeting at a head-fi meet, and the guy that bought it also said there was a blown driver.

The seller of course said there was no problems (though by this second time it's just scamming since two people now had this problem).

This guy had decent gear too and a speaker rig. But come on, if you can't hear a blown driver, why even bother with a high end stereo system.

 

[wower]

I would like speak up for ALO. I have no association with them nor have I ever even bought anything from them. This is coming only from me. I hope people don't penalize ALO for using Jena Labs wire. (Though from a purely practically standpoint it might be a better idea to find a new supplier.) I guess personally, I can draw a clear distinction between the work of Jena Lab's modders and an inanimate wire (which probably never hurt anyone). Some will feel differently and that is totally cool. I would just never trust jena lab to touch, let alone mod, an irreplaceable object for me. Again, it just speaks to Jena Lab's need to have covered this whole thing above board. They could have said, we have a tech, he made a mistake, now he only mods.. I donno - those little lamps in old sony receivers - and the community would have cheered and like... thrown a parade for how great their customer service is. Instead we get this whole line about doing (major repair) work they didn't tell anyone about. It's very suspect. So from me to Ken, you have no worries with me man.

 

[PITTM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 909 /img/forum/go_quote.gif .

I guess are are more on the same page than i thought. Sorry I misunderstood.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've sat back for hundreds of posts in this thread, but I can't ignore this. You've gotta be freaking kidding me? You must be a politician, to be able to do such a superb job at spinning what Ken just said. I have to applaud you, I've never seen it done so well, and so transparently.

Not a politician no, but a 'professional arguer' nonetheless - I'm a postdoctoral research scientist

Quote:

Regardless of the fact that you are completely wrong about Ken. I sat back and watched people speculate about whether the R10 were bad when he listened or not, and knowing that Ken and I have listened to the same thing and had the same impression, I wasn't worried because with what I know about Ken I believe they sounded good if he says they did.

Maybe I am wrong about Ken, maybe I'm not. But as hard as it is over the internet, let me assure you that I have no vested interest one way or the other, and no preconceived notions. I have no affiliation with Jena, Ken, or APS, or Boilingfrog.

All I've done is read a long thread, do what I'm trained to do in terms of digesting and comprehending a large quantity of conflicting information, and come to a conclusion. I believe that Ken gave a glowing review to a 'broken' headphone, and that he didn't notice it because he wasn't being objective.

Don't get me wrong - if this is indeed the case, I do NOT believe that Ken did it out of any malice or deliberate misconception, and I apologise if it came across that way. I believe that it is purely a function of how people in this hobby tend to carry themselves; the massively subjective nature of sound means that we set up 'rules' in our own minds.

Ken thought the R10 should sound good, so it did sound good. It is there in his own words, plain as the light of day.

Quote:

I think an apology is due to Ken.

Until any further information comes to light, no apology will be forthcoming. Just my interpretation of the facts. I'm very sorry if you feel that this is an attack against Ken - it is very obvious that the real 'villain' of this story is JL.

 

[zotjen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beefy /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is EXACTLY the problem I'm talking about. It seems quite clear to me that you were listening to the name of the headphones, rather than the headphones themselves.

Well then isn't it possible that maybe, just maybe, Boilingfrog was expecting too much from the R10s based on their reputation.

 

[jude]

I think this thread has now run its course, as well as veered off it.