[ocelot2500]

Hi all,
 
I am sure this has been asked before, but how does the C5 pair with the HE-400s? 

 

[dnun8086]

Thanks Miceblue much appreciated that's going to be my main set up so just an increase in sound quality will do just fine. Especially  instrument separation helps with the congested feel of the iphone 4s output. Anyone got any major complaints with the c5d ?? Must recommend Neco V4 headphone amp found on ebay brilliant guy awesome amp bit of op amp rolling optional :-D   

 

[miceblue]

Thanks Miceblue much appreciated that's going to be my main set up so just an increase in sound quality will do just fine. Especially  instrument separation helps with the congested feel of the iphone 4s output. Anyone got any major complaints with the c5d ?? Must recommend Neco V4 headphone amp found on ebay brilliant guy awesome amp bit of op amp rolling optional :-D   

It's not a complaint so much as a different sound from what I'm used to, but I still think the C5 has a wider soundstage from memory. I'll have to do more comparisons when I get the time, and when I have the room to bring all of this gear with me, hahaha. I usually used the C5, and now C5D while mobile listening and the C5D does sound more layered with a deeper soundstage but the C5 having a wider one.

I guess the only complaint per se I have about the C5D is that the bass switch is a bit counter-intuitive. The off position is the same as the C5, but the maximum bass boost is in the middle, and the mid-bass boost is at the other end of the switch. The other complaint I have but it's probably only related to the black C5D is the finish. I still like the chalkboard-like texture of the red C5's body compared to the smooth one of the black C5D since it was easier for me to grip.

I still find it really neat that the C5D can be charged from an iDevice when using the Camera Connection Kit.

 

[luisdent]

  Has anyone tried the c5d using the amp and dac with the phonak 232 ?? Want to take the plunge but i know synergy can mess things up. I loved the c5 with the phonak using the line out on the iphone but i hear different things about the c5d. Any impressions cheers. 

 
My pfe112 sounds the same from the c5d as it does from the c5.  I don't have the 232 anymore, but with the results from all of my earphones I'd say it will sound identical to the 232/c5 together, unless of course the c5d dac improves the iphone model you have.  I haven't heard every iphone, but I've read they are not all created equally in terms of sound.  But I can't say anything for sure without having heard them all.
 

luisdent: So you found the headphone out of the iPod Touch 5G to sound identical to that of the iPod Touch 5G connected to the C5D? That's weird... Doesn't this mean one of two things? 1) The iPod Touch 5G, C5D and Samsung Galaxy S4 Snapdragon all use the same DAC. Or 2) Different DACs passed a certain point of quality make no noticeable difference.

Or am I missing something?

Sorry if I seem to keep going on about this, it's just that I did a lot of research into different portable DAC/amps and read comparisons where people mentioned differences in soundstage and imaging etc. only to discover there apparently is no difference in DACs, only amps, either because your headphones require one or because the amp colours the sound.

 
Yes the ipod touch 5g headphone output sounds identical to the ipod touch 5d using the c5d dac.  As for the using the same dac, I don't know if they all share the same dac, but I wouldn't expect them to necessarily have the same dac because they sound the same.  I do believe a dac will reach the point of diminishing returns in audibility.  So I guess you could say a dac past a certain point won't make any further audible improvement.  However, I believe audibility of details can be limited by your earphones to some extent.  Therefore, depending on the earphones or headphones you have one dac might have more apparent improvements than when comparing that same dac to another earphone/headphone.  Same goes for speakers.  Keep in mind this thing can power some speakers.  I've tested the c5 with my alesis studio monitor speakers with good results.  So the same thing goes for that, in that certain speakers might prove to show more differences than others.
 
Alas, I haven't heard every headphone or speaker, so I can't say whether the c5d would improve "this or that" vs. something like an ipod dac.  Same goes for the amp.  What I can tell you is what I've tested all last night.
 
Here was my testing methodology overview, what I tested and the results.
 
First, I volume matched the ipod headphone output to the macbook-to-c5d output.  I used the macbook and ipod for two reasons.  First, in previous tests I've proven the fuze and zipclip to be indiscernible from the ipod touch 5g in my listening tests.  Therefore, if the pod is identical to the c5d I don't really need to compare it any further to the fuze other than a few basic listening tests just to rule out anything odd from the pairing.  With that being said, if the c5d is any better or worse than the ipod, I have a measuring stick to go by when comparing it to other devices that I'm familiar with.
 
Second, the macbook and ipod are both easier to navigate through music with.  Both using the same lossless files again.  This time I did a much more extensive listening comparison.  Bear with me, because i'm going to go into details of what I listened to and why.  But first, I had both audio devices connected with the exact same 3.5 cables with the exact same length.  I performed the tests mostly with the etymotic er4s earphones with other earphones here and there just for the heck of it.  But the er4s have the highest impedance and are the most demanding of the earphones that I have, as well as being one of the most high quality sounding pair that I have, so I focused on those for the bulk of the listening test.
 
I did a blind test using my ab switch (made from the beautiful c5 case).  For each song I first matched the playback to be literally identical (very time consuming, but worth it in my opinion).  This allows me to switch the switch instantly and not hear any playback difference in timing.  After syncing the songs the cables were connected to the switch without my knowledge.  I never knew which device was connected to which input of the switch at any time.  The cables were ran behind the table and back up again, so I couldn't (not would I anyway) follow them to see where they led.  I then put the switch in my lap and at that point inserted my earphones to start the comparison.
 
I switched the switch lever back and forth as I felt necessary.  The songs were set to repeat, and in some instances I listened to the songs more than once.  I tried to use a combination of listening times.  I would start with a few seconds on each switch position and then compare the other.  Then I would listen to a good portion of the song to try and get a "feel" for the sound and then switch it and compare.  Then a few times I listened to the whole song and then switched and listened to the whole song again.  A few times I would switch the switch level very rapidly (a few times a second at least) to see if I could detect and changes that way.  Finally, whether I thought I could hear a difference or not, I forced myself to choose whichever switch position sounded best and then pause the laptop to determine which device I was listening to.  Then I'd repeat the whole process again on the next song.  Those are the basics.  If you have any questions on my testing methodology just let me know.
 
I chose the following songs for the reasons indicated for each below.  I only did 15 songs, as this is extremely time consuming.  Here were the songs, details of what I listened for and results as to which I "thought" sounded better (remember, I forced myself to chose whether I though I could really hear a noticeable difference or not).  Please note that each song is from the best possible mastered version of the CD available (i'm too particular about my CD mastering quality):
 
moody blues - the day begins (mobile fidelity)
Smooth strings and a lot of depth in the recording, listened for the 'body', warmth and realism of the strings and bowing details and clarity of each instrument overall and how well things stood out in the 'thickness' of orchestra.

blackfield - my gift of silence
Thick mix of rock instruments and orchestra, listened for spaciousness and separation, bass and treble balance overall.  Tried to detect if either had more harshness or sibilance.

bt  - suddenly
Excellent intro dynamics.  Listened for bass tightness and weight, overall depth and mixing clarity.  This song can be fatiguing under the wrong conditions, listened for any difference there.

chick corea - spain
Great recording ambience.  Listened for the naturalness of the tape noise and depth of ambience as well as the micro details of each instrument.

david benoit - freedom at midnight
Amazing recording.  Listened to the very good dynamic range to detect any difference, the overall mixing and frequency balance and the tight togetherness of the instruments.

craig david - fill me in
Good stereo effects.  Listened for the overall left/right audio effects used and the distinction of hard panned instruments.

dan fogelberg - part of the plan
Good acoustic test.  Listened for naturalness of guitars and strumming, presence of the percussion and how well low mixed instruments could be heard. 

fourplay - moonjogger
Amazing recording.  Listened for the bass guitar string details, brightness of percussion and overall feel and mix.

alan parsons project - time
Amazing recording.  Listened for the smoothness and depth of strings and the tightness of the drums as well as vocal harshness.

bt - angels on my broken windowsill
Great dynamics and clarity.  Listened for depth between instruments and the dynamic stop-dead effects at parts as well as sharp detailed instrument accuracy.

dave grusin - mountain dance
Good mix.  Listened for acoustic realism, bass presence (good bass quality, but relatively low in mix compared to some songs) and noise profile.

christopher cross - sailing
Excellent mix.  Listened for the distinction of all the percussive "dings" and "tings" and the rightness and details of the bass specifically.

david arnold - cancelled leave
Excellent depth and soundstage.  Listened for the depth and the smooth string details and overall cohesiveness of the orchestra.

dream theater - Scene Two: I. Overture 1928
Thick mix.  Somewhat dynamically compressed track.  Listened for the ability to hear instruments in the dense mix, guitar body and kick drum tightness.

jeremy soule - far horizons
Beautiful.  Listened for the depth and realism of the instruments (not even sure they're all real, ha), the warmth and thickness of the strings and the soundstage and noise/silence at quiet passages.
 
 
Winner Summary:  C5D 53% iPod Touch 5G 47%
 

#	Winner	Song Name
1	c5d	moody blues - the day begins
2	ipod	blackfield - my gift of slience
3	ipod	bt  - suddenly
4	ipod	chick corea - spain
5	c5d	david benoit - freedom at midnight
6	c5d	craig david - fill me in
7	ipod	dan fogelberg - part of the plan
8	c5d	fourplay - moonjogger
9	ipod	alan parsons project - time
9	c5d	bt - angels on my broken windowsill
10	c5d	dave grusin - mountain dance
11	ipod	christopher cross - sailing
12	ipod	david arnold - cancelled leave
13	c5d	dream theater - Scene Two: I. Overture 1928
14	c5d	jeremy soule - far horizons
15	c5d	fourplay - free range

 
I have to stress that I was alternating between doing both very critical listening and a relaxing "take it all in" sort of listening. These results show almost perfectly that I couldn't discern between the two devices.  Statistically, there is no evidence of me having any clue which I was listening to.
 
Subjectively, as I was doing the test, there were times I thought I could hear more micro details here or there, but after a few switches of the lever I usually determined I wasn't really hearing any difference and that i was probably "trying" to hear a difference.  But in almost every case I had to force myself to choose, because I couldn't actually hear any difference.  I was actually surprised at just how perfectly identical they sounded compared to each other when I had the timing perfect and could seamlessly switch between the two.
 
So in conclusion, I don't there there is any audible improvement from the dac itself over the ipod touch 5g dac.  But let me reiterate that not all ipods use the same dac or amp and have differing reviews out there on the audio quality.  I've never been disappointed by the ipods I've had, but I have run into volume problems (not loud enough).  This is one area the c5 or c5d are awesome.  They provide PLENTY of power compared to an ipod.  So they can give you much needed power for more hungry phones.  Also, the c5d isn't just made for ipods.  So this is only a valid comparison in that case.  There are plenty of phones that are NOT as good as an ipod.  And in that case, since I've shown the c5d to sound identical to the ipod touch 5g, you can know that you will have excellent sound quality with ANY phone you can use the c5d with.  That's awesome.  Add to that any computer or tablet that is compatible.  Excellent again.
 
I connected it to my ipad mini and ipad retina and it worked seamlessly just by plugging it in.  The laptop was just as easy, but with the one additional step of selecting the c5d in the sound preferences.  That's it.  Done.  Reference quality engaged.  
 
For me, the c5d would be for that purpose.  My friend has a very cheap laptop from walmart that does not have a good sound chipset.  I can know that bringing over the c5d will get awesome sound from his laptop.  That is just a great peace of mind if you like to always have great sound on every device you have.  So, I consider this a good result.  I think the ipod touch 5g has reached a point of diminishing returns.  The c5d has also met this level of quality and sits atop the portable list of devices that I would truly call reference.  But remember that even though I consider the ipod touch 5g reference, that is under certain conditions, such as powering average sensitivity earphones.  Plug it into more demanding phones or speakers and it simply wouldn't even have the output, not to mention you'd be running it at max volume which increases a lot of negative sound specs.  The c5d has a lot more power and thus is more capable in general.
 
I'll stop running on here and just conclude by saying that the c5d has proven to sound excellent and all of the features and usability of the c5d are some of the best I've seen (all-in one portable dac, multi-pint bass bost, excellent specs, awesome volume control and channel balance, powerful, small, etc. etc.).
 
If I were to recommend the c5d (I highly do) it would be under these circumstances:
your device...
- is too quiet
- has too much hiss or noise
- doesn't have perfect frequency response (rolled of bass or treble)
- doesn't have great stereo width
- suffers from processing noises (chirps and whirs during song loading for instance)
- has poor channel balance at any given volume
 
or you...
- like to travel and use unknown devices at any given time
- want to downsize your amp and know you're getting reference quality
- want a great bass boost option
- want finer volume control steps
- just want a sexy amp/dac combo
 
There are probably more reasons, but those would be my main reasons I think one should go and grab a c5d.

 

[zombywoof]

Sorry if I missed something in your very thorough explanation, luisdent.  It appears that you used the analog headphone out on the iPod to connect to the C5D.  Is this correct?

 

[luisdent]

Sorry if I missed something in your very thorough explanation, luisdent.  It appears that you used the analog headphone out on the iPod to connect to the C5D.  Is this correct?

No. i was using the macbook via usb to the c5d to take advantage of the dac. i compared that to the ipod touch 5g headohone output. i've compared the ipod headphone output connected to the c5 in the past, but that wasn't my goal with this session...

 

[zombywoof]

Thanks!

 

[jseaber]

I just traveled to work while using the C5D with my iPhone 4S and Camera Connection Kit. If you can manage to get a good configuration with these, the C5D adds a nice increase in sound quality over the iPhone 4S.

Good configuration as in:

• making sure the Camera Connection Kit actually stays in place in the iPhone since it is really, really easy to just "slip off," and especially in your pocket considering it adds another inch or two to the length of the setup.
• managing the USB-miniUSB cable since all of the cables I have are ~3 feet in length....it's not fun to wrap/coil those up either.

With the C5D, the instrument separation becomes better and the soundstage actually has some depth. Compared to the C5D, the iPhone 4S's headphone out sounds very flat in soundstage, lacks instrument separation, and has a wooly-sounding bass response. I was stupid enough to not bring a line-out dock connector with me, so I can't say how the amp part of the C5D compares to that of the iPhone 4S's, but I would imagine it being very similar to the C5. That being said, I'll have to make some comparisons about the iPhone 4S + C5D amp against the iPhone 4S + C5D DAC/amp combos.

 
I have to agree with (1), when using a 30-pin dock of the older iPhone 4/4S. The Lightning connector for iPhone 5/5S is far less cumbersome to use: 
 

 

[FlySweep]

I purchased this one (but I found it in (a now sold out) black) quite some time back and it works with my iPhone 4 w/o a problem.

 

[Zenthelld]

-Loads of useful and interesting information-

Thank you so much for the time and effort you've put into your comparisons : )

I can't imagine that Apple, Snapdragon and JDS all use the exact same DAC, so I think you're probably right that once you get to a certain point DACs don't have much more they can do, and/or the headphones have to improve to hear a difference.

I plan on buying the SoundMAGIC HP100s again, to see if they can detect a difference and also to fairly compare them to the M4U1s.

On another subject: Does everyone else find the C5D drains their battery quite quickly? The other night I listened to music for about an hour after having charged my phone to 100%, and when I checked afterwards it had dropped down 25%

 

[bunnyfluffy]

Can anyone comment on the usability of the C5D with a galaxy S4?

 

[luisdent]

 

-Loads of useful and interesting information-

Thank you so much for the time and effort you've put into your comparisons : )

I can't imagine that Apple, Snapdragon and JDS all use the exact same DAC, so I think you're probably right that once you get to a certain point DACs don't have much more they can do, and/or the headphones have to improve to hear a difference.

I plan on buying the SoundMAGIC HP100s again, to see if they can detect a difference and also to fairly compare them to the M4U1s.

On another subject: Does everyone else find the C5D drains their battery quite quickly? The other night I listened to music for about an hour after having charged my phone to 100%, and when I checked afterwards it had dropped down 25%

 
I thought it was draining my ipod battery the first time I used it, but then I realized I had been browsing and switching so many songs it was probably the screen brightness and everything else. ha.  The next night I used the ipod and just listened to music without playing with it and it seems to last a lot longer.  Can't comment on your phone though.  Does the c5d draw power from the phone?  I though it ran off its battery?  Does the usb connection simply cause the phone to use more energy to transfer the digital data?  

 

[Zenthelld]

Can anyone comment on the usability of the C5D with a galaxy S4?

I use mine with the S4 i9505. It works via the USB Audio Recorder and USB Audio Player apps, but not with any other music player apps. I'm using Android 4.3 all stock. I don't know if the i9500 model works differently.

luisdent: Hmm, perhaps that was my issue as well. I'll try again later and see how it goes.

 

[bunnyfluffy]

I use mine with the S4 i9505. It works via the USB Audio Recorder and USB Audio Player apps, but not with any other music player apps. I'm using Android 4.3 all stock. I don't know if the i9500 model works differently.

 
Thanks! Do you find this setup easy to use and not clunky? Does the app work well? 
 
Would you recommend that other S4 users purchase the C5D?

 

[Zenthelld]

Thanks! Do you find this setup easy to use and not clunky? Does the app work well? 

Would you recommend that other S4 users purchase the C5D?

It is a little clunky, you need big pockets and a right-angled mini-jack for your headphones (as you'll likely want the USB end of your phone and the C5D pointing upwards in your pocket). The OTG cable that JDS Labs provide, while good quality, is a little cumbersome to use as it's straight, so may stick out of your pocket a bit. As for the weight, I'd say it doubles the weight of your S4. It's not heavy, but you obviously feel the difference.

The app is bare-bones but good enough. You can make playlists, shuffle, repeat 1 and repeat all. The interface isn't too ugly, either.

Would I recommend it? Depends. Are you only planning on using it for your S4? And more importantly, which headphones do you use?

Out of interest, do you have the i9500 or i9505 S4?