[Roller]

It's interesting how you completely disregard what different audio environments bring to gaming, like how different the sound of walking on metal is from walking on wood, which is only a small example.
 
For you soundstage is all that matter, regardless of what provides you such change. Noted. The purpose of offloading tasks to hardware is that the software runs smoother, and I'm not talking about performance by numbers.
 
The issues you have is because you keep on pushing surround virtualization software features that are lacking in so many aspects it's not even worth mentioning. But you like them, and that's all that matters, for you.
 
Clearly, you know nothing of what OpenAL is and can provide, and for that I won't argue further as you refuse to understand or research over the matter. And about your EAX inquiry, refer to my first paragraph.
 
LOL, you really should stop looking at the word EAX, as it's not the point in case. OpenAL on the other hand, is.
 
Maybe Surrounder+ should be called "soundstage software expansion for a hardware bugged resampler on a card with misleading specs". A/B tests? I most certainly have, on both different models of first generation Audigy cards and Audigy 2 cards, and FYI, it's noticeable and not in a small manner. mp3 VBR V2/V0, mpc Q9, ogg Q9.5 and FLAC files all showed my point, where there is a more polluted audio when content isn't fed specifically to the only format that's passable on Audigy cards. BTW, I thought that at this point, you would have higher standards for digital audio to make fair comparisons.
 
But please, get something like a STX and knock yourself out, or find your Audigy 2 ZS card with kX drivers to be the best thing ever made for all time, as long as you can only play back one single output format, meaning a specific bit depth and sample rate, without quite detrimental effects on audio *rolleyes*

 

[Gustoo]

But how many new games uses OpenAL? I've read that it's very few, though I know many of new games uses FMOD. http://www.fmod.org/
Same with EAX, almost no game take advantage of it today. Not that I'm really that interested in it anyway, I rather have less hit on SQ than reverb times a million...
Also it's good with competition, so that Creative is not the only card out there to get, since OpenAL is an Creative thing.
 
@Roller
You wrote; " It's interesting how you completely disregard what different audio environments bring to gaming, like how different the sound of walking on metal is from walking on wood, which is only a small example. "
I agree that this is also important, for more immersion in games, but what do you mean by it? Is it something that only comes with OpenAL, or perhaps that features like that is somehow more noticeable with a x-fi card? I'm not following exactly....
 
I'm with RPGWiZaRD here,  I also believe the problem is that these different simulations of surround sound will work differently for every person's ears. Which is where HRTF comes in play, and that is why I put a great interest in MyEars, since it let's you calibrate your own HRTF and use that in games.
I mean sure you can buy this: http://smyth-research.com/technology.html if you have the money. But since most gamers won't, one have to look elsewhere for a good 'bang for your buck' solution.
I mean, HRTF has to be one of the most important things to get right for a good positional audio..
Ok, you can be a lucky one who has a generic HRTF. Dolby Headphones uses something like that, a generic one, so if you lucky it will sound correct, otherwise not so good.
So in this way, having your HRTF calibrated should be really beneficial.

 

[Roller]

Gustoo, there are both AAA and indie games using OpenAL, mainly through the fact that it's an effortless audio renderer that doesn't get in the way of the rest of the game, unlike FMOD and XAudio.
 
Environmental audio effects are used by EAX, which works by accessing those effects through the DSP chip, but considering that OpenAL made those same effects available (up to a certain level, meaning the more refined environment modulations are still Creative exclusive) without the user needing to change anything in the system, which is why OpenAL is the best audio renderer currently available. Curiously, there is a non Creative bound environment effects solution also available on OpenAL, which could be used by other manufacturers' products, but up to this point, the competition has yet to provide any product with proper hardware support for it.
Think of a FPS game where you're trying to pinpoint an enemy, and through realistic use of reverb and different material sound feedback, you are able to know where that enemy is without seeing him, you can hear him entering a door due to his footsteps making a different sound, and if he stays at the door shooting, for instance, you'll be able to discern that. And again, this is just a small example.
Do keep in mind that proper reverb implementation makes it meld so well with the game audio that it will mainly help immersion, rather than detract from an natural audio presentation.
 
About games that use OpenAL, there is a rather small list here: http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/Games.aspx
Keep in mind that there are several games missing from that list, both older and newer, such as Bioshock 2, Dirt 2 and 3, Mass Effect 1 and 2, Battlefield Bad Company 2, World of Warcraft, GRID, Kane & Lynch: Dead Men, Osmos, Warzone 2100, etc.
 
And yes, MyEars does sound interesting indeed, and certainly a far more accessible solution compared to Smyth's SVR But am I mistaken or it hasn't been launched just yet? Also, I'm hoping that it can provide HRTF changes while maintaining the same SQ, which is something that doesn't happen on either software surround solutions available.

 

[tom2011]

if you like audigy 2
its personal taste
 
if sell your titanium hd make a comprasion between it and xonar

 

[Scytus]

Quote:

Gustoo, there are both AAA and indie games using OpenAL, mainly through the fact that it's an effortless audio renderer that doesn't get in the way of the rest of the game, unlike FMOD and XAudio.
 
Environmental audio effects are used by EAX, which works by accessing those effects through the DSP chip, but considering that OpenAL made those same effects available (up to a certain level, meaning the more refined environment modulations are still Creative exclusive) without the user needing to change anything in the system, which is why OpenAL is the best audio renderer currently available. Curiously, there is a non Creative bound environment effects solution also available on OpenAL, which could be used by other manufacturers' products, but up to this point, the competition has yet to provide any product with proper hardware support for it.
Think of a FPS game where you're trying to pinpoint an enemy, and through realistic use of reverb and different material sound feedback, you are able to know where that enemy is without seeing him, you can hear him entering a door due to his footsteps making a different sound, and if he stays at the door shooting, for instance, you'll be able to discern that. And again, this is just a small example.
Do keep in mind that proper reverb implementation makes it meld so well with the game audio that it will mainly help immersion, rather than detract from an natural audio presentation.
 
About games that use OpenAL, there is a rather small list here: http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/Games.aspx
Keep in mind that there are several games missing from that list, both older and newer, such as Bioshock 2, Dirt 2 and 3, Mass Effect 1 and 2, Battlefield Bad Company 2, World of Warcraft, GRID, Kane & Lynch: Dead Men, Osmos, Warzone 2100, etc.
 
And yes, MyEars does sound interesting indeed, and certainly a far more accessible solution compared to Smyth's SVR But am I mistaken or it hasn't been launched just yet? Also, I'm hoping that it can provide HRTF changes while maintaining the same SQ, which is something that doesn't happen on either software surround solutions available.

 
Gustoo brings up a good point, OpenAL & EAX have to be supported in order to be fully taken advantage of, so there will be without a doubt several games most people own that wouldn't take advantage of those features; even some of the newer games.
 
Is there a feature that doesn't have to be supported, that the Titanium HD can provide (other than CMSS-3D) that would benefit gamers more than what the STX would? The only reason I'm leaning towards the STX is that it simulates surround sound w/ DH without the quality impact of CMSS-3D. DH seems to actually be well-received in terms of gaming, as there's MLE's giant thread of many users that take advantage of the tech.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Gustoo brings up a good point, OpenAL & EAX have to be supported in order to be fully taken advantage of, so there will be without a doubt several games most people own that wouldn't take advantage of those features; even some of the newer games.
 
Is there a feature that doesn't have to be supported, that the Titanium HD can provide (other than CMSS-3D) that would benefit gamers more than what the STX would? The only reason I'm leaning towards the STX is that it simulates surround sound w/ DH without the quality impact of CMSS-3D. DH seems to actually be well-received in terms of gaming, as there's MLE's giant thread of many users that take advantage of the tech.

Full OpenAL hardware acceleration is already enough to warrant getting a Titanium HD over a STX, and when you throw the third generation X-Fi DSP chip alied with full EAX support, that just crushes STX as a gaming card. What doesn't the STX has? Proper OpenAL support, EAX support above version 2, its emulation software (GX) that's meant to make the card more compatible with games is very lacking and still glitchy, and overall it's a card geared towards music, movies as well due to the codecs and really has gaming as an afterthought, which seems to plague the whole Xonar series, which leads me to relegate it to movie duty, which is where I feel it excels, but I'm no longer talking about the STX anyway, but the addon card compatible card they have which is interesting for the purpose it was built
 
EDIT: I forgot to mention that X-Fi cards have two nifty little features called MacroFX and Elevation Filter, and those are only found on X-Fi cards since they're provided by the DSP chip. MacroFX gives a better perception of depth and positioning as objects approach the user, while Elevation Filter allows for easier distance and height pinpointing. I couldn't find a separate page for the Elevation Filter, but there's a rather simple (and incomplete IMO) example of what MacroFX provides: http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/technology/eax_advanced_hd/instructions5.html?TB_iframe=true&height=460&width=774&modal=true
Oh, some users have reported that different games perform differently with MacroFX and Elevation Filter settings, but for the most part, I feel they work optimally when enabled by default.

 

[Scytus]

 
Quote:

Full OpenAL hardware acceleration is already enough to warrant getting a Titanium HD over a STX, and when you throw the third generation X-Fi DSP chip alied with full EAX support, that just crushes STX as a gaming card. What doesn't the STX has? Proper OpenAL support, EAX support above version 2, its emulation software (GX) that's meant to make the card more compatible with games is very lacking and still glitchy, and overall it's a card geared towards music, movies as well due to the codecs and really has gaming as an afterthought, which seems to plague the whole Xonar series, which leads me to relegate it to movie duty, which is where I feel it excels, but I'm no longer talking about the STX anyway, but the addon card compatible card they have which is interesting for the purpose it was built
 
EDIT: I forgot to mention that X-Fi cards have two nifty little features called MacroFX and Elevation Filter, and those are only found on X-Fi cards since they're provided by the DSP chip. MacroFX gives a better perception of depth and positioning as objects approach the user, while Elevation Filter allows for easier distance and height pinpointing. I couldn't find a separate page for the Elevation Filter, but there's a rather simple (and incomplete IMO) example of what MacroFX provides: http://www.creative.com/soundblaster/technology/eax_advanced_hd/instructions5.html?TB_iframe=true&height=460&width=774&modal=true
Oh, some users have reported that different games perform differently with MacroFX and Elevation Filter settings, but for the most part, I feel they work optimally when enabled by default.

I've also just read that CMSS-3D can sound strikingly similar to DH if the reverb setting is enabled as well, is there any truth to this?

 

[Roller]

Quote:

 

I've also just read that CMSS-3D can sound strikingly similar to DH if the reverb setting is enabled as well, is there any truth to this?
 

Hum, that's actually the first time I've heard about it, but considering that CMSS3D and EAX effects can both have their intensity adjusted, it wouldn't be much of a suprise if a certain combo of CMSS3D intensity/mode and EAX intensity/preset would reproduce a similar effect that DH with its 3 settings allows.

 

[Scytus]

Quote:

Hum, that's actually the first time I've heard about it, but considering that CMSS3D and EAX effects can both have their intensity adjusted, it wouldn't be much of a suprise if a certain combo of CMSS3D intensity/mode and EAX intensity/preset would reproduce a similar effect that DH with its 3 settings allows.

Alright I'll look into it some more. Personally, I'm trying to see if the TItanium HD, without the effects that need to be supported(MacroFX and Elevation Filter?), like OpenAL/EAX, would be the better choice, than something like the D2X which supports DH (DH, again being a favored tech here). I do also find it odd that the Titanium HD supports Dolby Digital and DTS, but not DH.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Alright I'll look into it some more. Personally, I'm trying to see if the TItanium HD, without the effects that need to be supported, like OpenAL/EAX, would be the better choice, than something like the D2X which supports DH (DH, again being a favored tech here). I do also find it odd that the Titanium HD supports Dolby Digital and DTS, but not DH.

Better choice for what? Gaming? Even with OpenAL and EAX purposely disabled, there is still the whole X-Fi DSP chip backing it up. And just because there is a thread by MLE regarding DH (a thread that I often recommend users to read, mind you

), that doesn't make DH any better, but that enters the realm of preferences.
Why would Creative cards have DH if they already have CMSS3D? It would be like a car having two radios

Dolby Digital and DTS are de facto standards, DH isn't.
 
But tell me, what exactly are your listening habits, gear, and all that jazz?

 

[Scytus]

Quote:

Better choice for what? Gaming? Even with OpenAL and EAX purposely disabled, there is still the whole X-Fi DSP chip backing it up. And just because there is a thread by MLE regarding DH (a thread that I often recommend users to read, mind you

), that doesn't make DH any better, but that enters the realm of preferences.
Why would Creative cards have DH if they already have CMSS3D? It would be like a car having two radios

Dolby Digital and DTS are de facto standards, DH isn't.
 
But tell me, what exactly are your listening habits, gear, and all that jazz?

Oh, well I was speaking primarily in terms of gaming, I would've turned off all simulation effects when listening to music. I personally haven't experienced either surround simulation technologies, but the general consensus does seem to be that DH, while not as expansive as CMSS, comes in with little-to-no SQ hit. Whereas CMSS, while superior to DH, sucks the SQ soul out. Knowing that, I would much rather have Dolby Headphone over CMSS-3D, as it does seem to be the ideal choice in terms of positioning (again not counting OpenAL or EAX, I don't want to have to rely on a feature for developers to decide whether they want to make use of it)
 
In terms of gear, I'm still trying to put it all together honestly, I'm considering the T1 (later possibly upgrading to a combination of T1 & D7000 for SP gaming) with either the D2X or Titanium HD as a soundcard. I'm still researching amps/dacs, but for a time I was considering the Valhalla/Bifrost, until I read the Valhalla's soundstage wasn't that great. I've tried the following headphones: Ultrasone Pro 550, HFI-580, Pro900, ED8, Beyerdynamic DT770, T1, Audeze LCD-2, AKG K701, Sennheiser HD600/650. To my surprise, I didn't like the LCD-2, not the ED8, Pro900, HD600 & HD650.
 
My listening habits constantly change, there's classical, electronic, alternative rock, etc.. or even just of the beautiful works by some composers I like C:
 

 

[Roller]

Actually, I find both DH and CMSS3D to be very intrusive, and they both change audio from their original characteristics to an artificial flavor that just isn't pleasant at all to my ears. By default, they are different from each other, but both cause more than insignificant SQ changes, which is why I love to increase ever so slightly sound depth through minute room simulation settings, anything more than that is already degrading sound. And basically, the contextual difference between Creative and Asus is that Asus lacks virtually all gaming features and its audio manipulation features limit themselves to on/off switches or simple 1-2-3 settings, depending on the options we're talking about, while Creative has all gaming features, including OpenAL and EAX, and most its features can be adjusted with a much finer control, not relying on simple switches. BTW, you seem to be forgetting that no one forces you to choose between CMSS3D and DH, there are other software alternatives out there.
 
Well, with the currently available source quality, you are free to look for solid amping solutions, specially considering you're planning on getting headphones that do benefit quite a bit from adequate amps. It seems you plan on going the SS route when it comes to amps, which in theory could yield better results on the D7000, rather than the T1. I'm merely saying this due to you have a wide range of music you enjoy listening to. Also, are you planning on doing competitive gaming or immersive/enjoyable gaming?

 

[Scytus]

Quote:

Actually, I find both DH and CMSS3D to be very intrusive, and they both change audio from their original characteristics to an artificial flavor that just isn't pleasant at all to my ears. By default, they are different from each other, but both cause more than insignificant SQ changes, which is why I love to increase ever so slightly sound depth through minute room simulation settings, anything more than that is already degrading sound. And basically, the contextual difference between Creative and Asus is that Asus lacks virtually all gaming features and its audio manipulation features limit themselves to on/off switches or simple 1-2-3 settings, depending on the options we're talking about, while Creative has all gaming features, including OpenAL and EAX, and most its features can be adjusted with a much finer control, not relying on simple switches. BTW, you seem to be forgetting that no one forces you to choose between CMSS3D and DH, there are other software alternatives out there.
 
Well, with the currently available source quality, you are free to look for solid amping solutions, specially considering you're planning on getting headphones that do benefit quite a bit from adequate amps. It seems you plan on going the SS route when it comes to amps, which in theory could yield better results on the D7000, rather than the T1. I'm merely saying this due to you have a wide range of music you enjoy listening to. Also, are you planning on doing competitive gaming or immersive/enjoyable gaming?

Other software alternatives? I know I can recreate the DH effect in Foobar as RPGWiZaRD pointed out, but if there's ways to make it an effect in games, I am completely oblivious. If it's possible to run DH off the Titanium HD in games via external software, I'm definitely in as that's the only reason I was considering the D2X.
 
As far as amping goes... that's just an area I'm lost in, T1's seem to favor tubes. I think possibly the M-Stage would have a positive effect on the D7000 & T1, but what DAC to match it with? (I can be OCD about amps & dacs matching)

 

[Roller]

Quote:

Other software alternatives? I know I can recreate the DH effect in Foobar as RPGWiZaRD pointed out, but if there's ways to make it an effect in games, I am completely oblivious. If it's possible to run DH off the Titanium HD in games via external software, I'm definitely in as that's the only reason I was considering the D2X.
 
As far as amping goes... that's just an area I'm lost in, T1's seem to favor tubes. I think possibly the M-Stage would have a positive effect on the D7000 & T1, but what DAC to match it with? (I can be OCD about amps & dacs matching)

Like I said before, try to forget DH, CMSS3D, etc, they make sound less natural and bring little to no benefits on gaming, and none to music, with perhaps slight improvements on movies, which I'm still not convinced at all. I should note that even on movies, the only area I find it possible to have any use for such features, I find that watching a whole movie makes for a very fatiguing experience, while if you just enable one low intensity reverb setting, you get increased sense of space while avoiding the exhausting DH/CMSS3D effect.
 
If you're curious about similar sound tweaking that can be used on the system output, take a look at SRS HD Audio Lab: http://www.srslabs.com/store/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=38
Do note I don't recommend it for critical listening whatsoever, but if you don't mind fiddling around, it could end up being something interesting.
 
The DAC is on the Titanium HD, then you just put a solid amp between the DAC and your headphones and you're all set And for the overall setup with D7000, a SS amp might give a more balanced sound, though I'm not so sure about the T1.

 

[Scytus]

Quote:

Like I said before, try to forget DH, CMSS3D, etc, they make sound less natural and bring little to no benefits on gaming, and none to music, with perhaps slight improvements on movies, which I'm still not convinced at all. I should note that even on movies, the only area I find it possible to have any use for such features, I find that watching a whole movie makes for a very fatiguing experience, while if you just enable one low intensity reverb setting, you get increased sense of space while avoiding the exhausting DH/CMSS3D effect.
 
If you're curious about similar sound tweaking that can be used on the system output, take a look at SRS HD Audio Lab: http://www.srslabs.com/store/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=38
Do note I don't recommend it for critical listening whatsoever, but if you don't mind fiddling around, it could end up being something interesting.
 
The DAC is on the Titanium HD, then you just put a solid amp between the DAC and your headphones and you're all set And for the overall setup with D7000, a SS amp might give a more balanced sound, though I'm not so sure about the T1.

Yes but I was considering getting an external DAC of my own and using the optical-outs.