[evilking]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...There are mistakes on both sides, clearly.

What was KWS's mistake?

 

[deathklok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilking /img/forum/go_quote.gif What was KWS's mistake?

Considering the politeness of John Diles I've heard of before this incident, I'm suspecting he wasn't the easiest customer to satisfy during the whole experience. That's why seeing KWS's e-mails would be critical before offering more than minimal criticism of Diles'. For all we know KWS threatened him first (not suggesting he did, merely pointing out that we don't know if Diles' reaction was "warranted" though out of line, or just plain offensive).

And bundee, did I say that you shouldn't? I'm saying that some people are looking out for KWS, some for Livewires, but what nobody seems to be willing to accept is that any conclusion drawn by the forum stands at least a decent chance of being wrong because of the minimal solid facts available to us.

And I've seen the tracking number, heard it was provided by Livewires, but not seen any proof that it may not have been altered or tampered with (again, not suggesting that it was, merely pointing out that there's no way to know).

Again, this is all hampered by Livewires' silence on this issue, but that gives no excuse to "convict" without factual evidence.

This issue needs to be limited to the two parties involved until one or the other has deemed it sufficiently resolved to discuss. Discussion during a resolution, whether amicable or not, merely complicates the issue by allowing other opinions in on what should be a debate between two entities, not an entire internet forum.

Not to mention, as I said earlier, if John Diles really were the jerk some of you perceive him to be, this thread is in all likelihood grounds for a libel suit, especially if it remains uncontrolled by the mods. There is alot of namecalling here, and not alot of fact either way.

It is pointless for members to debate this, as we ultimately play no part in the solution. We can boycott, we can insult, we can do almost anything except force John Diles to refund the last of the money if he doesn't see fit, short of one of us committing a criminal offense, or proving that he is somehow outside the restrictions of his own agreement with the customer.

It would truthfully not surprise me, though, if once it can be verified that the package is indeed lost, that he would refund the total shipping cost as well, or at least the difference between EMS and uninsured post. Having dealt with similar issues over other shipped items in the past, that was almost always the resolution, although on occasion it took almost 6 months to indeed prove that the package was lost in transit. Again, I do not know John Diles, and I have not dealt with him whatsoever personally, but without a reason other than this apparent compounded miscommunication, I cannot assume that he is as awful as some of you have.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif Considering the politeness of John Diles I've heard of before this incident, I'm suspecting he wasn't the easiest customer to satisfy during the whole experience. That's why seeing KWS's e-mails would be critical before offering more than minimal criticism of Diles'. For all we know KWS threatened him first (not suggesting he did, merely pointing out that we don't know if Diles' reaction was "warranted" though out of line, or just plain offensive). And bundee, did I say that you shouldn't? I'm saying that some people are looking out for KWS, some for Livewires, but what nobody seems to be willing to accept is that any conclusion drawn by the forum stands at least a decent chance of being wrong because of the minimal solid facts available to us. And I've seen the tracking number, heard it was provided by Livewires, but not seen any proof that it may not have been altered or tampered with (again, not suggesting that it was, merely pointing out that there's no way to know). Again, this is all hampered by Livewires' silence on this issue, but that gives no excuse to "convict" without factual evidence. This issue needs to be limited to the two parties involved until one or the other has deemed it sufficiently resolved to discuss. Discussion during a resolution, whether amicable or not, merely complicates the issue by allowing other opinions in on what should be a debate between two entities, not an entire internet forum. Not to mention, as I said earlier, if John Diles really were the jerk some of you perceive him to be, this thread is in all likelihood grounds for a libel suit, especially if it remains uncontrolled by the mods. There is alot of namecalling here, and not alot of fact either way. It is pointless for members to debate this, as we ultimately play no part in the solution. We can boycott, we can insult, we can do almost anything except force John Diles to refund the last of the money if he doesn't see fit, short of one of us committing a criminal offense, or proving that he is somehow outside the restrictions of his own agreement with the customer. It would truthfully not surprise me, though, if once it can be verified that the package is indeed lost, that he would refund the total shipping cost as well, or at least the difference between EMS and uninsured post. Having dealt with similar issues over other shipped items in the past, that was almost always the resolution, although on occasion it took almost 6 months to indeed prove that the package was lost in transit. Again, I do not know John Diles, and I have not dealt with him whatsoever personally, but without a reason other than this apparent compounded miscommunication, I cannot assume that he is as awful as some of you have.

Don't you understand? Can you really not grasp what people are saying? I will put it VERY clearly for you.

1. Customer placed order.
2. Customer payed for better/insured shipping
3. Company ships using the CHEAPER, less reliable shipping method.(whether intentionally, or by accident)
4. Product lost in transit by the cheaper shipping company.
5. Company is responsible because they did not fulfill their implied contract obligations (which was to ship via the method payed for by the customer)


It is that simple. Whether or not the shipping mistake was an accident or not is not the point. The point is they did NOT provide the service that the customer purchased. Part of the transaction was the purchase of the shipping service. The company did not fulfill this part of the contract, which resulted in the product being lost.

KWS made no errors up until this point,(some said he has after, I disagree). Why should he lose out because of the errors on the company's behalf?

Even afterwards, the customer service was extremely inappropriate. This lack of care for their customers, and complete disrespect they have shown towards KWS leads me to believe the shipping "mistake" was done on purpose to increase profit.

If the product was shipping with the method chosen by KWS, both KWS and JD would know exactly where the package is, and what happened to it. And if it was lost, they would be insured. But since they failed to do so, the package cannot be found, and cannot be reimbursed by the USPS.

EDIT: Also, KWS has EVERY RIGHT to share his experience with any company he deals with( + or -) unless he agrees to a contract otherwise. BUT, the companies also have the right to respond to the claims made. So far, they have failed to do so, even though they are aware of the issue and this thread.

 

[pne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif [size=large]It is pointless for members to debate this, as we ultimately play no part in the solution. ...Discussion during a resolution, whether amicable or not, merely complicates the issue by allowing other opinions in on what should be a debate between two entities, not an entire internet forum. [/size]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... I'm suspecting he wasn't the easiest customer to satisfy during the whole experience. For all we know KWS threatened him first (not suggesting he did, merely pointing out that we don't know if Diles' reaction was "warranted" though out of line, or just plain offensive). And I've seen the tracking number, heard it was provided by Livewires, but not seen any proof that it may not have been altered or tampered with (again, not suggesting that it was, merely pointing out that there's no way to know).

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif [size=large]There is alot of namecalling here, and not alot of fact either way. [/size]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif And comparing a multi-member witch-hunt to the feedback forum is equally reasonable, you idiot. I've never been on a forum with so many self-righteous idiots in my life And you are one of the most condescending, self-righteous idiots I've seen on any message board anywhere.

for once you are correct.

 

[kg21]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now that's just funny. Where on earth did I say that? Quote, please.

"And KWS only came to head-fi to slander Livewires....not to contribute with anything positive or constructive, just to badmouth a company...."

"I have also stated earlier that the response was a bit rude, but we still do not know how OP has behaved himself leading up to that email...."

"Considering the politeness of John Diles I've heard of before this incident, I'm suspecting he wasn't the easiest customer to satisfy during the whole experience."

so yea imo its definitely implied you think the OP did something wrong/he is suspicious. But like I said you never directly attacked him I agreed with you on that point. And in your last post you said you haven't even dealt with livewires before, so I'm not sure why you are so confident that things would be different if we knew the whole truth. I'm not saying the whole story wouldn't help JD, im just saying how do you know it would? Atleast the other guy said he knew the whole story, although if he cares enough to post about it I don't see why he wouldn't care enough to post the whole thing.

I never said the world revolves around head-fi, but from his one response it's clear that JD saw this thread and is atleast angry over what happened even if he isn't bothered by negative posts on head-fi; it is also clear that he is not taking the highroad in this case which I thought would be one possibility until I saw that post.

 

[PhaedrusX]

deathklok,
you need to take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard.
you insist on sticking to the facts. LawnGnome above has spelled them out for you. that doesn't seem to stop you from throwing out your fair share of speculations, though.
also, why are you so against a public debate in a public forum, and how can you insist that this is between the two parties only?
john diles openly and publicly accused the op of defrauding his company. this was not done by private email, this was done in a thread in this forum. once this is done, it becomes fair game for public debate, imo.
at this point, the onus falls on mr. diles to back up his accusations with facts. if i publicly called you a liar and a thief, then disappeared without further comment, you might not be as understanding to me as you seem to be towards mr. diles.
you state that nobody knows the facts [in big bold letters so that us simple folk can understand], but then follow that up with an absurd statement saying that "it is clear to you" why diles hasn't responded.
really?
the inconsistencies and hypocrisy in your comments are astounding.
is this debate pointless?
you obviously think so, so why continue?
if others feel it is not pointless, why not let them continue?
nobody is forcing you to participate. if you don't like it, don't partake.
simple.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pne /img/forum/go_quote.gif for once you are correct.

Maybe you and deathklock need to learn about the power of social groups.

This thread has most likely the MOST power to persuade JD to refund the rest of the money.

Also, this thread is largely here to INFORM others.

 

[deathklok]

I've given up on this thread. It seems that reading comprehension is not a strong point for the majority of you people. You're still telling me that I'm defending Livewires and blaming KWS. I'm still telling you that I'm not blaming anyone, because I, like you, do not know everything that has transpired, and whatever conclusion I might eventually draw would have utterly zero consequence anyway in terms of rectifying whatever wrong may have occured.

LawnGnome, I'd love to see the indisputable proof of your bullets 3 and 4. And you may want to get a reality check if you think that nine pages of threats, insults, and what can easily be regarded as libel, will accomplish anything other than leaving an even worse taste in Diles' mouth (whether he has any reason to have one to begin with I cannot say). If we were to suppose that he is absolutely not at fault, how is this thread supposed to encourage anything? How do we know that KWS has been only partially refunded. How can you verify any of this information? I'd love to know, because everything I've seen is full of holes.

Claiming that this thread exists to inform is absurd. It informed 8.5 pages ago, unfortunately since then it's been non-stop arguing, insults, and pointless bickering, which serves literally no purpose. We all know what supposedly happened, nobody needs any convincing that those are the events in question. It does no good for there to be 8.5 pages of people insulting a person and a company.

And I'm still noticing that there has been no mention of TTVJ potential involvement here. The refund had to come though him, and clearly he was not exactly quick in issuing it from the date it was promised. It's becoming increasingly clear that this forum plays favorites.

 

[deathklok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg21 /img/forum/go_quote.gif "And KWS only came to head-fi to slander Livewires....not to contribute with anything positive or constructive, just to badmouth a company...." "I have also stated earlier that the response was a bit rude, but we still do not know how OP has behaved himself leading up to that email...." "Considering the politeness of John Diles I've heard of before this incident, I'm suspecting he wasn't the easiest customer to satisfy during the whole experience." so yea imo its definitely implied you think the OP did something wrong/he is suspicious. But like I said you never directly attacked him I agreed with you on that point. And in your last post you said you haven't even dealt with livewires before, so I'm not sure why you are so confident that things would be different if we knew the whole truth. I'm not saying the whole story wouldn't help JD, im just saying how do you know it would? Atleast the other guy said he knew the whole story, although if he cares enough to post about it I don't see why he wouldn't care enough to post the whole thing. I never said the world revolves around head-fi, but from his one response it's clear that JD saw this thread and is atleast angry over what happened even if he isn't bothered by negative posts on head-fi; it is also clear that he is not taking the highroad in this case which I thought would be one possibility until I saw that post.

Of course when you take things I say out of context, and use ellipses to reword them (I haven't yet found my post that the first quote is from), they're going to seem accusatory. The second sentence is a statement of fact. KWS has conveniently left out the records of his e-mails to Livewires, which seems a little fishy to me, as he's the one who appears to frequent this thread of the parties involved. Third quote is also a statement of fact, I've heard nothing but good things about them, and because I haven't had a physical monetary transaction doesn't mean I haven't spoken with them through e-mail. My next headphone purchase will probably be Livewires, unless it becomes evident that the company did indeed intentionally defraud KWS.

Nowhere did I say "that the whole story would help John Diles", I merely stated that we haven't heard it, and are making judgments based on a single account of an incident involving two parties.

And nowhere did I say anything about you believing that the world revolves around head-fi.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've given up on this thread. It seems that reading comprehension is not a strong point for the majority of you people. You're still telling me that I'm defending Livewires and blaming KWS. I'm still telling you that I'm not blaming anyone, because I, like you, do not know everything that has transpired, and whatever conclusion I might eventually draw would have utterly zero consequence anyway in terms of rectifying whatever wrong may have occured. LawnGnome, I'd love to see the indisputable proof of your bullets 3 and 4. And you may want to get a reality check if you think that nine pages of threats, insults, and what can easily be regarded as libel, will accomplish anything other than leaving an even worse taste in Diles' mouth (whether he has any reason to have one to begin with I cannot say). If we were to suppose that he is absolutely not at fault, how is this thread supposed to encourage anything? How do we know that KWS has been only partially refunded. How can you verify any of this information? I'd love to know, because everything I've seen is full of holes. Claiming that this thread exists to inform is absurd. It informed 8.5 pages ago, unfortunately since then it's been non-stop arguing, insults, and pointless bickering, which serves literally no purpose. We all know what supposedly happened, nobody needs any convincing that those are the events in question. It does no good for there to be 8.5 pages of people insulting a person and a company. And I'm still noticing that there has been no mention of TTVJ potential involvement here. The refund had to come though him, and clearly he was not exactly quick in issuing it from the date it was promised. It's becoming increasingly clear that this forum plays favorites.

There is no indisputable evidence for 4. Because they shipped USPS and not UPS (point three). So there is VERY limited, if any, tracking.


Also, do you not know how a business is run?

JD should see how this is looking bad PR for himself, and refund the rest to try to cut his losses. The longer he lets this go on, the more word will spread. Which is entirely his fault for not resolving this earlier.


Also, it should be noted 90% of the insults being thrown about. are being thrown by YOU.


EDIT: also, I would just like to point out for you. Decisions are made on AVAILABLE information. 100% is never known. JD has had ample opportunity to provide his side. But he has disappeared.

It isn't like KWS is saying this stuff without JD knowing. JD knows, but is ignoring.

 

[deathklok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is no indisputable evidence for 4. Because they shipped USPS and not UPS (point three). So there is VERY limited, if any, tracking. Also, do you not know how a business is run? JD should see how this is looking bad PR for himself, and refund the rest to try to cut his losses. The longer he lets this go on, the more word will spread. Which is entirely his fault for not resolving this earlier. Also, it should be noted 90% of the insults being thrown about. are being thrown by YOU. EDIT: also, I would just like to point out for you. Decisions are made on AVAILABLE information. 100% is never known. JD has had ample opportunity to provide his side. But he has disappeared. It isn't like KWS is saying this stuff without JD knowing. JD knows, but is ignoring.

Really? Ninety percent. That's interesting, I have no more than 10 posts in this thread, which takes 9 pages, and has ~20 posts per page. By your logic, every sentence I write must be nothing but insults. I'm actually quite certain that I've been very careful not to insult anyone. I'm quite certain that I am the only person who has been very careful not to take a side, for reasons which I have been over in, well, let's see, 90% of my posts, and will not repeat again.

More fact checking for you: EMS is handled in the United States by the USPS, and is known as Express Mail International. So, no matter how it would've been shipped, USPS would've been the handler.

But hey, I must be wrong, clearly you know more about international shipping and business than me, I only manage a bar, I only have to deal with 10-20 difficult (read: drunk) customers on a good day, several different vendors for wine and liquor, alot of which is interestingly shipped internationally. But gee, I guess you must still be the bigger expert than me.

 

[indigo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif O KWS has conveniently left out the records of his e-mails to Livewires, which seems a little fishy to me, as he's the one who appears to frequent this thread of the parties involved. .

Deathklok,

I am not sure if you are aware of this thread here:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...54#post3361254.

I have been following this case with interest since it started at the beginning of this month. Ivan (KWS) first posted his complaint on the main forum (which is in essence the first post in the members feedback thread), in which he asked for help.

The thread was then moved to the members feedback forum. AT the time, a lot of people who posted were skeptical as his complaint only showed his side of the case, although quite a few (myself included) were appalled at the initial response from John Diles. They requested his emails to Livewires/ TTVJ. He subsequently posted the emails (in complete- who knows? but he did so, nonetheless). If you take the time to read his emails, you can sense his frustration growing from the first to the final email.

This created a lively debate (not unlike this current thread, very much along the same lines- most felt that John Diles should not have written an email in such a tone, no matter what, however a few, came out in support of Diles,mentioning his otherwise excellent record).

The moderators then deleted all of the posts from those who had no direct contact with Livewires, as they felt that it should not have been in the members feedback forum.

Ivan then started this thread here- which if you go to the first post, was basically asking for advice, not even naming Livewires as the company. Someone else outed them, not KWS.

He then posted an update in which he happily thanked everyone who posted in support of him, as he got a partial refund, which he was happy with. I believed that the matter was therefore laid to rest.

John Diles then replied with his second famous example of excellent customer service. This was posted by him on the members feedback thread, and subsequently posted by an outraged head'fier here, leading us to where we are today.

As in any forum, there are people who stand on different sides of the coin. Unfortunately in this case, there have been one or two who, imho, have posted with the main intention of baiting, or at best, naively and immaturely, creating more conflict.

For me personally, what irked me was that in both emails, no accountability was taken, the issues were not dealt with and the tone in which the emails were written in was extremely offensive, to say the least. I expected more from an older gentleman, a business owner, and an educated man.

You are also right to point out that TTVJ may have some culpability in this, but he/ they has wisely opted to stay out of this, and that point became moot when John decided to show his command of diplomacy.

At the end of the day, no matter which way you look at it, if the phones were shipped insured, this debate would not exist. Both sides would be covered. But what is inexcusable to me is the tone and content of the emails sent by John Diles. I think that is the bone of contention for most of us.

I am not posting this to challenge or change your views. We can all agree to disagree without being personal. Have a good weekend.

 

[deathklok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Deathklok, I am not sure if you are aware of this thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...54#post3361254. I have been following this case with interest since it started at the beginning of this month. Ivan (KWS) first posted his complaint on the main forum (which is in essence the first post in the members feedback thread), in which he asked for help. The thread was then moved to the members feedback forum. AT the time, a lot of people who posted were skeptical as his complaint only showed his side of the case, although quite a few (myself included) were appalled at the initial response from John Diles. They requested his emails to Livewires/ TTVJ. He subsequently posted the emails (in complete- who knows? but he did so, nonetheless). If you take the time to read his emails, you can sense his frustration growing from the first to the final email. This created a lively debate (not unlike this current thread, very much along the same lines- most felt that John Diles should not have written an email in such a tone, no matter what, however a few, came out in support of Diles,mentioning his otherwise excellent record). The moderators then deleted all of the posts from those who had no direct contact with Livewires, as they felt that it should not have been in the members feedback forum. Ivan then started this thread here- which if you go to the first post, was basically asking for advice, not even naming Livewires as the company. Someone else outed them, not KWS. He then posted an update in which he happily thanked everyone who posted in support of him, as he got a partial refund, which he was happy with. I believed that the matter was therefore laid to rest. John Diles then replied with his second famous example of excellent customer service. This was posted by him on the members feedback thread, and subsequently posted by an outraged head'fier here, leading us to where we are today. As in any forum, there are people who stand on different sides of the coin. Unfortunately in this case, there have been one or two who, imho, have posted with the main intention of baiting, or at best, naively and immaturely, creating more conflict. For me personally, what irked me was that in both emails, no accountability was taken, the issues were not dealt with and the tone in which the emails were written in was extremely offensive, to say the least. I expected more from an older gentleman, a business owner, and an educated man. You are also right to point out that TTVJ may have some culpability in this, but he/ they has wisely opted to stay out of this, and that point became moot when John decided to show his command of diplomacy. At the end of the day, no matter which way you look at it, if the phones were shipped insured, this debate would not exist. Both sides would be covered. But what is inexcusable to me is the tone and content of the emails sent by John Diles. I think that is the bone of contention for most of us. I am not posting this to challenge or change your views. We can all agree to disagree without being personal. Have a good weekend.

And I do not disagree with you whatsoever. His tone was inappropriate, I have never disputed that, I am merely suggesting that there is still more at work here than we all know, and are likely to ever know. It doesn't seem to fully add up, unless Mr. Diles really is a severely unstable person. I've just learned that it is extremely rare for one party to be solely to blame in a dispute, and that is the extent of what I have suggested, despite my statements which have been twisted and taken out of context. I do, however, feel that the moderators have done a disservice to Ivan, and Livewires, by pruning which conversations on this issue are allowed to continue. It scatters the information available, and makes the whole issue look considerably shadier than it is.

EDIT: After reading Ivan's supplied e-mails (I have no doubt there are more, this kind of escalation seems highly unlikely over 4-5 e-mails, but I cannot deny that I might be wrong), he makes several accusatory statements which it seems that Mr. Diles handles very well. In the first e-mail he states "I doubt that my package is lost", which seems highly accusatory of Livewires, and Mr. Diles himself, not to mention TTVJ. Whether this was intentional or not, statements like these, which are in all of the e-mails, certainly do not help his case when trying to resolve an issue with a company. Unlike the other members on this forum, the only conclusion I can draw from this is alot of animosity over miscommunication.

 

[indigo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif And I do not disagree with you whatsoever. His tone was inappropriate, I am merely suggesting that there is still more at work here than we all know, and are likely to ever know. It doesn't seem to fully add up, unless Mr. Diles really is a severely unstable person. I've just learned that it is extremely rare for one party to be solely to blame in a dispute, and that is the extent of what I have suggested, despite my statements which have been twisted and taken out of context.

Sir, you are correct. There are always two sides to every story, and we, being observers at this stage can weigh in with our opinions but may/ will never know what fully transpired. We can only go by whatever "evidence" is presented and what our gut feel/ experiences tells us. I also agree that it is extremely rare for one party to be totally at fault and the other totally blameless (it does happen from time to time!), but then again there are varying degrees of fault.

What I am going to disagree with you, is to the stability of Mr. Diles, given what I've read in his emails and which, unlike your posts, cannot be twisted and taken out of context

Goodnight and may all your customers be paying customers, and all suppliers be consignment suppliers!

 

[JMT]

This thread has run it's course.