Is there *really* an audible difference between different DACs?

[MonkeyDance]

I tried various combinations of the RNHP, Schitt Vali 2, Topping D50, and Schitt Modi Multibit. Basically my only take away is that the RNHP sounds better than the Vali 2. The DACs were interchangeable for me. The Schitt boxes look really nice but the potentiometer on the Vali 2 feels very crappy compared to the on eon the RNHP. Also the Modi Multibit takes 20 seconds to boot up...where as the D50 turns on pretty much instantly.

So my thinking at this time is to either forgo the DAC completely or get a cheaper one.

 

[klyrish]

I am curious to see if I can notice a difference. Apparently the Multibit performed very badly compared to the Modi 3. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-battle-of-schiit-audio-dacs.5487/page-1
I have the Multibit coming today and will see if I can hear a difference against the Topping.

I don't put any stock into measurements. I honestly couldn't care less about them because while the Mimby might measure poorly, it SOUNDS incredible and at the end of the day, a DAC is supposed to make music sound good/great. If it does, then does anything else really matter?

 

[florence]

Much appreciate your reply! I look forward to sitting down and listening to the two albums you've mentioned through two different DACs and HE-400 / HD800 (I desperately need to find some value in HD800 or I'll have to let them go, since so far I have not been able to understand all the hype around these mediocre sounding headphones).

You should schedule an appointment with an ENT doctor, seriously.

 

[Monsterzero]

I've just been reading this thread on R-2R DAC from Soekris, the thread is very insightful (at least to me).

The HD800,perhaps moreso than any other dynamic headphone(along with the new Verite closed) really magnifies any weak link in your chain.
R2R DACs really match up with the HD 800 quite well IMO. The warm nature of the R2R DACs compliment the HD800 well.

Im selling one in the classifieds. PM me if youre interested in getting a great DAC for your HD800.

 

[robo24]

For my newbie ears, I feel like I get brain burn in with different DACs and amps, such that they all sound “normal” to me after a while and I have trouble telling any huge difference as compared to when I first got them. When I first got a Mojo there was clearly something different about it, which I can only describe as a jingling keys sound, in a good way. I liked it enough that I moved onto a Hugo2 and noticed the same effect, with a much wider soundstage. After months, I just can’t hear that jingling anymore. I’d also hear maracas and cabasas very distinctly which would be in their own spot in the soundstage, in all kinds of music, which never really stood out prior to having audiophile equipment. That doesn’t happen anymore either. Fortunately I do hear pretty obvious differences in headphones (otherwise there would be no point in collecting them). Part of this i’m sure is that I’ve never had any music education at all. When we were supposed to get recorders and learn about music and instruments in 3rd grade, my teacher was annoyed with the class and cancelled it, which was really awful in retrospect. Musical terms to me seem like advanced math or physics which are mysterious to me. Perhaps that ignorance contributes to my inability to detect and/or describe differences. I also think we’ve evolved brains so that “new” elements initially stand out, but then diminish as they’re determined not to be dangerous or negatively impactful. As an untrained, casual listener, i’m just settling on enjoying that I have good equipment and enjoying the music. Thus, I’lll likely scale back my collection of DACs and amps and focus on headphones.

 

[buke9]

For my newbie ears, I feel like I get brain burn in with different DACs and amps, such that they all sound “normal” to me after a while and I have trouble telling any huge difference as compared to when I first got them. When I first got a Mojo there was clearly something different about it, which I can only describe as a jingling keys sound, in a good way. I liked it enough that I moved onto a Hugo2 and noticed the same effect, with a much wider soundstage. After months, I just can’t hear that jingling anymore. I’d also hear maracas and cabasas very distinctly which would be in their own spot in the soundstage, in all kinds of music, which never really stood out prior to having audiophile equipment. That doesn’t happen anymore either. Fortunately I do hear pretty obvious differences in headphones (otherwise there would be no point in collecting them). Part of this i’m sure is that I’ve never had any music education at all. When we were supposed to get recorders and learn about music and instruments in 3rd grade, my teacher was annoyed with the class and cancelled it, which was really awful in retrospect. Musical terms to me seem like advanced math or physics which are mysterious to me. Perhaps that ignorance contributes to my inability to detect and/or describe differences. I also think we’ve evolved brains so that “new” elements initially stand out, but then diminish as they’re determined not to be dangerous or negatively impactful. As an untrained, casual listener, i’m just settling on enjoying that I have good equipment and enjoying the music. Thus, I’lll likely scale back my collection of DACs and amps and focus on headphones.

Either you have cables dying or you have hearing problems as a dac should not change to that extent.

 

[klyrish]

Either you have cables dying or you have hearing problems as a dac should not change to that extent.

I don't think the DAC is changing so much as robo24 is just getting used to the new stuff that higher quality equipment has exposed and it's gone from being new/exciting to just being part of the music. It's happened to me every time I've upgraded or just changed gear. Suddenly, something I've never heard before is very present and obvious and it sticks out like crazy because it's a song I've heard hundreds of times before but suddenly there's this totally new element exposed.

After a while, you get used to it and expect it so what was "new" is now just part of the song again.

 

[buke9]

I don't think the DAC is changing so much as robo24 is just getting used to the new stuff that higher quality equipment has exposed and it's gone from being new/exciting to just being part of the music. It's happened to me every time I've upgraded or just changed gear. Suddenly, something I've never heard before is very present and obvious and it sticks out like crazy because it's a song I've heard hundreds of times before but suddenly there's this totally new element exposed.

After a while, you get used to it and expect it so what was "new" is now just part of the song again.

That’s all well and good but I don’t think I’ve heard something and then it went away. That is one of the ways I determine if one piece of equipment is a bit better than another if I hear that thing in one and don’t hear it in another plus a few other things but if you hear it you should always hear it .

 

[robo24]

Either you have cables dying or you have hearing problems as a dac should not change to that extent.

Of course at no point did I suggest that the DACs were changing in any way.

I was responding to the OP and sharing my personal observations. There is no reason to think that small changes in stimuli (different DACs) would be any different than a new taste, a slight change to a view, etc., in that the brain adapts to the difference eventually as a new normal and that may account for some people’s inability to tell much difference in DACs. An analogy would be my experience of gardening and viewing my garden from a distance. I typically view dozens of elements (plants, flowers, size, new growth) at a time but when I stick something new in it, when I view it from a distance for a time that new thing will stand out until another new thing does. Over time the previously new plant stops standing out unless I specifically focus on it. I imagine if I had music education and/or training I would be able to do critical listening and have the ability to still distinguish minor changes in DACs I’ve grown accustomed to by focusing on them and concentrating on identifying those subtle differences. Or maybe I wouldn’t. There is obviously inter and intra difference in people’s hearing ability, brain processing of sound, and what does or doesn’t stand out sound wise as there would be for visual, taste, or other stimulation of senses.

 

[buke9]

Of course at no point did I suggest that the DACs were changing in any way.

I was responding to the OP and sharing my personal observations. There is no reason to think that small changes in stimuli (different DACs) would be any different than a new taste, a slight change to a view, etc., in that the brain adapts to the difference eventually as a new normal and that may account for some people’s inability to tell much difference in DACs. An analogy would be my experience of gardening and viewing my garden from a distance. I typically view dozens of elements (plants, flowers, size, new growth) at a time but when I stick something new in it, when I view it from a distance for a time that new thing will stand out until another new thing does. Over time the previously new plant stops standing out unless I specifically focus on it. I imagine if I had music education and/or training I would be able to do critical listening and have the ability to still distinguish minor changes in DACs I’ve grown accustomed to by focusing on them and concentrating on identifying those subtle differences. Or maybe I wouldn’t. There is obviously inter and intra difference in people’s hearing ability, brain processing of sound, and what does or doesn’t stand out sound wise as there would be for visual, taste, or other stimulation of senses.

No problem just thought you were the OP. Still I understand what the brain can do and can effect preferences but should not effect what you hear as you should still hear the jingle of the keys but after a while not prefer it but it should still be there just saying.

 

[klyrish]

That’s all well and good but I don’t think I’ve heard something and then it went away. That is one of the ways I determine if one piece of equipment is a bit better than another if I hear that thing in one and don’t hear it in another plus a few other things but if you hear it you should always hear it .

No one said anything about it "going away."

 

[Alexium]

The HD800,perhaps moreso than any other dynamic headphone(along with the new Verite closed) really magnifies any weak link in your chain.
R2R DACs really match up with the HD 800 quite well IMO. The warm nature of the R2R DACs compliment the HD800 well.

That's what I was expecting when I got them, but I did not expect HD800 to have such an uneven frequency response. They're overly bright in several ranges, not at all monitor-sounding. I'm unable to perceive them as more detailed than HE-400, all the things I can hear in HD800 I can hear in HE-400 and vice versa. They just sound wrong due to several accentuated tones.

By the way, can't this uneven frequency response be contributing to HD800 being perceived as detailed headphones? Louder sounds often sound better to us (until you realize they're the same, just louder), and if the headphones make louder the range that usually contains lots of details (e. g. upper mid / lower treble), won't this be heard as better resolution when compared to more even-sounding model, just because the details are easier to hear?

P. S. Thanks for the offer on R-2R, I'd be curious to listen to one, but the price is way above my league. Also, the idea of compensating headphone imperfection with symmetric DAC imperfection doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Monsterzero]

That's what I was expecting when I got them, but I did not expect HD800 to have such an uneven frequency response. They're overly bright in several ranges, not at all monitor-sounding. I'm unable to perceive them as more detailed than HE-400, all the things I can hear in HD800 I can hear in HE-400 and vice versa. They just sound wrong due to several accentuated tones.

By the way, can't this uneven frequency response be contributing to HD800 being perceived as detailed headphones? Louder sounds often sound better to us (until you realize they're the same, just louder), and if the headphones make louder the range that usually contains lots of details (e. g. upper mid / lower treble), won't this be heard as better resolution when compared to more even-sounding model, just because the details are easier to hear?

P. S. Thanks for the offer on R-2R, I'd be curious to listen to one, but the price is way above my league. Also, the idea of compensating headphone imperfection with symmetric DAC imperfection doesn't sit right with me.

I wont comment on the DAC being symmetrically imperfect. However,R2R DACs are generally warmer sounding vs. D/S DACs. some love them.some dont. That warmness helps the HD800,as does a good OTL amp.
All that being said,you can pour all sorts of perfume on a pig,but at the end of the day,its still a pig. It sounds like the HD800 simply isnt for you.
I personally have never owned the HD800,but have heard it several times. It just sounds like you prefer a different sound than theyre able to offer you.
I suggest you cut your losses,sell it off and get a headphone that sounds good to your ears and system.

 

[Alexium]

R2R DACs are generally warmer sounding vs. D/S DACs.

I understand that it's a subjective description with no well-defined meaning, but doesn't "warm" usually mean a certain shape of frequency response?

 

[castleofargh]

DACs tend to measure well and a good deal better than the rest of the playback chain. which suggests that if there are audible differences, they should be very small and never come close to the influence that choosing a headphone or a nice album can have on our experience of music. just the way we place a headphone on our head will have more impact on the FR than replacing one DAC by another one. as for distortions, even average DACs will tend to be clean maybe 40dB below the distortions created by the headphone. we're talking magnitudes where not only the DAC's distos will almost always will be masked by the music, but even the headphone's distortions will often be loud enough to be a psychoacoustic masker of the DAC's distos. it doesn't matter if someone declares that he doesn't believe in measurements, when there are 1000 bananas in a room, finding the extra banana is going to be harder than when there is only that one banana in the room.

on the other hand we have known long before DAC were even invented that humans suck bad at getting accurate impressions from casual music listening. almost nobody here is conducting a proper listening test when checking 2 DACs. even making sure the 2 devices output the same voltage so we don't end up with a genius claiming to hear night and day differences between DACs because one is clearly louder than the other, is typically not controlled by audiophiles before they come up with their confident impressions...

now adding those 2 ideas together does not prove or disprove that some DACs will make a night and day difference in our music experience compared to some other DACs or that they will sound any different at all. but IMO it gives a very reasonable argument for not trusting fellow audiophiles talking confidently about the sound of their DACs. crappy listening methods may somehow work for headphones because of how huge the differences will be, so getting those even a little wrong will still tend to lend us in the right general idea of impression. but crappy listening methods to judge devices as accurate and stable as DACs, that just won't cut it.

I understand that it's a subjective description with no well-defined meaning, but doesn't "warm" usually mean a certain shape of frequency response?

audible or not, there is a kind of trend where R2R DACs roll off the trebles more than delta sigma DACs. so it can be a frequency response thing. it's not a rule or anything, but people in the market for discrete DACs are often seeking the full "I don't understand digital audio but I want to make big decisions about how it's done" package. including no oversampling, as little "ringing" as possible from the filter, and other similar ideas that look completely reasonable and even preferable, so long as you wrongly consider digital audio as if it is not digital. anyway, whatever the motivations are behind those DACs, they do often tend to have a softer low pass filter that will start attenuating the signal well within the audible range nowadays, more competent designers will just oversample the signal and solve the filter problem entirely, but oversampling just doesn't sit right with everybody so there will still be a market for doing it wrong. and as delta sigma without oversampling can't really exist, it logically results in those NOS stuff with crappy filters, surviving among the R2R designs.