[klyrish]

In whose favor?

In my opinion, the RDAC/Amethyst. I find the Schiit sound to be processed and harsh after hearing these two DACs. Yes, the RDAC is still an OS DAC but it sounds much closer to the Amethyst (NOS DAC) than the Gungnir. The sound is smoother and more laid back. While you could argue the Gungnir is more detailed and resolving, I find I'm hearing better layer/instrument separation with the RDAC/Amethyst with background layers that get lost in the Gungnir's more forward presentation being suddenly noticeable. So they might be less detailed/resolving, but I'm hearing more due to the presentation of both DACs vs. the Gungnir, plus more lifelike drums and vocals, and a more musical sound all around. I'd been getting headaches from the Gungnir -> Ragnarok and I can only assume it's due to what I now perceive has harsher treble. The RDAC is a bit rolled at both ends and the Amethyst is just smoother. I've had no headaches since switching to those two and music just sounds so much more enjoyable.

Schiit = analytical
RDAC/Amethyst = musical/enjoyable

 

[Alexium]

Thanks for the detailed reply! And while we're at it, I would also love to know which music you're listening into that lets you judge the DACs this way. Which tracks / albums do you recommend to try and listen for these subtleties?

 

[klyrish]

Thanks for the detailed reply! And while we're at it, I would also love to know which music you're listening into that lets you judge the DACs this way. Which tracks / albums do you recommend to try and listen for these subtleties?

Right, I keep forgetting I don't have a signature.

I use the HD6XX as my primary headphones (Ether 2 are coming Monday) and I use a 20-band parametric EQ in Roon to give me a nice V-shaped signature (my preferred). Amp is the ZDT Jr. and I'm shooting to upgrade to a Kenzie Encore soon (waiting on a bunch of stuff to sell on Reddit right now to fund it). I listen primarily to metal/hardcore and a lot of NIN.

My reference track is "Somewhat Damaged" by NIN due to a) it being awesome and b) the structure. It starts as a 4-chord progression on a slightly-out-of-tune acoustic guitar and more and more layers come throughout the song. When I first got the RDAC last weekend, I plugged it in to get it warming up and after 24 hour or so, gave it a listen and was so blown away I knew immediately I was never going back to the Gungnir. The sound is much warmer and, I feel, more organic than the Gungnir. There's a weight to drums especially that's missing from the Gungnir. But the biggest thing was how incredibly clear the RDAC was compared to the Gungnir. When things start to get loud in Somewhat Damaged, some of the softer background layers are totally lost and/or turn into a wall of congestion on the Gungnir. With the RDAC, I crap you not: I can pick out any of the layers I know are going on at any given time and hear it while still hearing everything else going on as well. There's a percussive loop of what I'm assuming is a violin bow rubbing on something to give a papery texture. It's soft and just a background noise but still part of the song. Once the main bass synth riff comes in, I can only hear the violin bow layer when the bass synth takes its second-long breaks. On the RDAC, I can hear it the entire time. That's just one example from a 2 hour album chock full of crazy, layered details. It's been such an experience listening through the RDAC and Amethyst.

Listening to Neck Deep's album Life's Not Out to Get You, there are so many layered and background vocals I've never heard before that are suddenly so present and obvious. Not to mention little guitar riffs going on in the background that are totally lost in the mix on the Gungnir because the main riffs are front and center.

The Amethyst was very similar in all regards to the RDAC with the differences between it and the RDAC being mostly that the the Amethyst has slightly more recessed vocals but has much better bass and treble extension.

I'm not badmouthing Schiit and I hope that's not the impression I'm giving. They make incredible products and I was extremely happy with every single one of them that I've owned over the last few years. I just didn't know things sounded so differently through other DACs and upon hearing the RDAC and Amethyst, I realized that Schiit DACs just do not do well reproducing the music I listen to.

This current chain, RDAC/Amethyst -> ZDT Jr. -> HD6XX is the best music has ever sounded to me. When I turn the amp up loud, I honestly feel like I'm in the room with the band while they're playing, experiencing the music. On the Schiit stack, I never felt closer than being in the studio, listening to the mixes over monitors, analyzing the music.

 

[Alexium]

Much appreciate your reply! I look forward to sitting down and listening to the two albums you've mentioned through two different DACs and HE-400 / HD800 (I desperately need to find some value in HD800 or I'll have to let them go, since so far I have not been able to understand all the hype around these mediocre sounding headphones).

 

[buke9]

Much appreciate your reply! I look forward to sitting down and listening to the two albums you've mentioned through two different DACs and HE-400 / HD800 (I desperately need to find some value in HD800 or I'll have to let them go, since so far I have not been able to understand all the hype around these mediocre sounding headphones).

While you can do what you want have to say the HD-800’s are one of the best headphones you can get. You feel differently not a problem for me just they are. Do what you want.

 

[MonkeyDance]

This is such an interesting topic. I have been trying to see if I can tell the difference between a separate DAC (Topping d50 and Audioquest DragonFly Red) and plugging in directly to my iMac...I am using Sennheiser HD650s and I can't tell a difference.

I think...maybe the D50 might sound the best, but it is a memory at best and if it is better its 1-5% better. If the test were blind I would probably pick a different one each time. I am really tempted to forgo the DAC all together...it seems like a waste of money. I am going to try a Schitt Modi Multibit just to see if I can't notice an improvement.

Maybe the Cirrus chip in the iMac is plenty good enough.

 

[klyrish]

This is such an interesting topic. I have been trying to see if I can tell the difference between a separate DAC (Topping d50 and Audioquest DragonFly Red) and plugging in directly to my iMac...I am using Sennheiser HD650s and I can't tell a difference.

I think...maybe the D50 might sound the best, but it is a memory at best and if it is better its 1-5% better. If the test were blind I would probably pick a different one each time. I am really tempted to forgo the DAC all together...it seems like a waste of money. I am going to try a Schitt Modi Multibit just to see if I can't notice an improvement.

Maybe the Cirrus chip in the iMac is plenty good enough.

To be fair, though, those are both DACs in the same price range and both use ESS chips. Slightly different models, but you're basically comparing the same DAC to itself and I'd guess that's why you're not hearing much, if any difference at all. I think you'll notice a huge difference between the ESS delta-sigma presentation and the Modi Multibit presentation. I was shocked how much detail and separation I was hearing when I first got my Mimby. I had the Fulla 2 first (uses an AKM 4490 d/s chip) and then tried the Chord Mojo but did not like it. The Mimby blew me away.

There are definitely differences between the Mimby and Gumby as well, just not to the extent I was expecting giving the 5x increase in price for the Gumby. More detail, better presentation, bass slams harder, but otherwise, the Mimby does probably 80-85% of what the Gumby does.

Going from oversampling DACs to non-oversampling was also an enormous shift. I really like the Amethyst and am extremely curious about how the Onyx sounds (it has double the number of DACTwo modules in it) but I'm not sure it'll be worth $2600. I really hate there's not a rental service that allows you to try out audio equipment for up to a month to really get a feel for it before you spend money on it.

 

[Alexium]

I admit I've never heard a multibit DAC, nor, I think, a non-OS DAC (not sure about that dual mono AD1955 that's been borrowed to me as I think the OS can be turned off).
P. S. The datasheet says AD1955 is a "multibit delat-sigma DAC". If I'm reading it correctly, "multi" means from 2 to 8 bits depending on the sampling rate.

 

[MonkeyDance]

To be fair, though, those are both DACs in the same price range and both use ESS chips. Slightly different models, but you're basically comparing the same DAC to itself and I'd guess that's why you're not hearing much, if any difference at all. I think you'll notice a huge difference between the ESS delta-sigma presentation and the Modi Multibit presentation. I was shocked how much detail and separation I was hearing when I first got my Mimby. I had the Fulla 2 first (uses an AKM 4490 d/s chip) and then tried the Chord Mojo but did not like it. The Mimby blew me away.

There are definitely differences between the Mimby and Gumby as well, just not to the extent I was expecting giving the 5x increase in price for the Gumby. More detail, better presentation, bass slams harder, but otherwise, the Mimby does probably 80-85% of what the Gumby does.

Going from oversampling DACs to non-oversampling was also an enormous shift. I really like the Amethyst and am extremely curious about how the Onyx sounds (it has double the number of DACTwo modules in it) but I'm not sure it'll be worth $2600. I really hate there's not a rental service that allows you to try out audio equipment for up to a month to really get a feel for it before you spend money on it.

I am curious to see if I can notice a difference. Apparently the Multibit performed very badly compared to the Modi 3. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-battle-of-schiit-audio-dacs.5487/page-1
I have the Multibit coming today and will see if I can hear a difference against the Topping.

 

[theveterans]

R2R aka Multibit will always inherently measure worse than D/S DACs. It's just the nature of DAC implementation. I own both Schiit Bifrost 2 (R2R on a chip) and Chord Mojo (D/S) but my preference is the Schiit sound for speakers and Chord for headphones/IEMs. One subjective difference between most D/S and Schiit R2R (R2R can sound different in many ways depending on the manufacturer and their implementation (NOS, software OS, Tube buffer, etc.)) is the imaging and the inflection of the instruments and inflection on some vocals. However, those differences are extremely subtle and require extensive listening to both to notice the difference.

I am curious to see if I can notice a difference. Apparently the Multibit performed very badly compared to the Modi 3. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...eview-battle-of-schiit-audio-dacs.5487/page-1
I have the Multibit coming today and will see if I can hear a difference against the Topping.

 

[Alexium]

I've just been reading this thread on R-2R DAC from Soekris, the thread is very insightful (at least to me).

 

[PointyFox]

I've done blind testing with different people and it's pretty funny. They'll often say the same DAC sounds much better or worse than itself when they think I'm switching DACs but I'm not. Overall, they could pick out which DAC was the most expensive of two about 47% of the time.
I can't tell myself either. I did a test though where I didn't volume match and almost everyone said the louder DAC was better, but when I matched them they couldn't tell. I think this is often the case with expensive DACs because they tend to put out more voltage than cheaper ones, maybe for this reason.

 

[theveterans]

I've done blind testing with different people and it's pretty funny. They'll often say the same DAC sounds much better or worse than itself when they think I'm switching DACs but I'm not. Overall, they could pick out which DAC was the most expensive of two about 47% of the time.
I can't tell myself either. I did a test though where I didn't volume match and almost everyone said the louder DAC was better, but when I matched them they couldn't tell. I think this is often the case with expensive DACs because they tend to put out more voltage than cheaper ones, maybe for this reason.

Once volume matched to <0.1 dB across the entire audible spectrum, it would be extremely hard to tell a difference between an incredibly expensive DAC and say a Topping DAC. Certainly the case with Mojo and Schiit Bifrost 2 where the difference was so small and that’s already sighted listening. Double blind A/Bx would definitely result to randomness thus DACs sound the same once volume matched

 

[Alexium]

I've only once had a listening session when I thought I can finally tell a difference between two DACs. I was very excited. It was very hard to me to pinpoint what the difference was, but eventually I did it. Turns out, I switched L and R outputs on one of the two DACs I've been comparing.
And yeah, volume is a big factor, up until some threshold a louder playback will appear as having higher quality, at lest to me it does.

 

[PointyFox]

I've only once had a listening session when I thought I can finally tell a difference between two DACs. I was very excited. It was very hard to me to pinpoint what the difference was, but eventually I did it. Turns out, I switched L and R outputs on of the two DACs I've been comparing.
And yeah, volume is a big factor, up until some threshold a louder playback will appear as having higher quality, at lest to me it does.

lol I did that once and I was like "Is this a different recording??...oh".