Is the DAP dead?????

[Redcarmoose]

I wasn’t going to make a post of this style but then thought it can help the thread. Below is a list of posts this week from the 1A/1Z Sony DAP Thread here at Head-Fi. The motivation on my effort here in this post is to try and delineate the very fast and effective advances in DAP technology which is making these small portable devices much better than even big desktop applications even a few years ago. The DAC technology and amplifier technology is on another level with new FPGA ideas newly integrated into portable audio. That’s why these new devices are different than what you can do with a phone and different sounding that what you can buy from FiiO. Below we see the flagship Sony DMP-Z1 which stands as a reference and possibly a role model for how this technology will be miniaturized at a future date. Both the Sony 1Z and DMP-Z1 have been created by the same team and share many of the same inventions. This post is only to show that DAP technology is not ending but moving forward at an alarming rate providing us with sound quality that makes 2013 seem like the dark ages.


Reference Below
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Post #31066

I've read the document on the signatute of @Sonywalkmanuser , pretty interesting read of the S-MASTER, the anti-jitter precision in attoseconds, wow, that is even lower than these femto clocks... and the desktop version of S-Master has high voltage (or current) FETs in the output secrion, making the desktop amp capable of outputting 75W per channel for powering speakers.


I think sony can implement a mobile version of these Switching FETs to put more piwer in a walkman f.e 1W or 800mW





Post #31052

I do not know about the next Walkman....it isn’t totally impossible for S-Master to incorporate Low bit converter....only that the current S-Master HX is only Multi-bit. Who know what the next generation could bring ?


I can not speculate on those capacitors either. But if the trends from previous Walkman and Sony stay the same, then we could expect a lot of quality PML caps to dedicate toward music signal purity, Poscaps and electrolytic as well.


However, who knows when the next generation S-Master May come







Post #31057


I don't know what kind of secret sauce Sony added to the DSEE HX AI on the ZX507, I have already tried so many other mobile-based upsampling Iisted here:

Hibiki IOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hibiki2f/id887091351

Korg Audiogate: https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/iaudiogate/

Neutron Music Player: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.neutroncode.mp&hl=en

TEAC HR player: http://audio.teac.com/product/hr_audio_player_for_ios/


The new Sony up-sampling algorithm is the first one that makes me want to upsample every of my music! All the other up-sampling Apps all have issues with blurriness or sounds overly sharpened. Although Korg and Hibiki is pretty decent.


I cannot imagine how DSEE-HX AI will sound on the WM1Z if that's possbile to be added in. Though I don't think it is possible as the DSEE-HX AI already consumes so much processing power of the ZX507(battery reduced by 30%-35% with DSP), the CPU on the WM1Z probably won't be able to do the AI processing.




Post #31047

AK4499EQ is a Delta-Sigma DAC. Walkman is always S-Master. If it isn’t S-Master, it isn’t a Walkman









Post #31021


I did not have Dave with MScaler. It was from a PC as a source. DSEE-HX is almost an up scaling feature that was detailed as bringing any files into High-resolutions. I never enjoyed it as much before, but now I do with DMP Z1.

Main differences is the soundstage presentation in XYZ expansiveness. Dave is more like Dome shaped presentation where the vertical plane is not as spherical as DMP. The timbres from Dave is dense and also somewhat warmth, but very different than DMP Z1. Dave sounds more like Digital where as DMP sounds more like Analog. The Dave was behind in Fluidity, density resolutions, textures details, and most importantly grainy. The DMP has utmost density resolutions, fluidity, textures details but buttery smooth, very fluid and liquid. The only thing I would pick on the DMP Z1 is the Warmth signature, but even so, every pitch, tempo, Chorus are all precisely and uniquely retrieved and reproduced for each different instruments and plays.


Yes, and error corrections, Jitter could come from Ceramic Capacitors. They cause Piezoelectric effects which we use on Crystal oscillators as a timing devices. These mechanical vibrations induce both electrical noises and physical noises into the signals, which cause the Signals to be contaminated or... carrying a lot of Error that should not have been. DMP Z1 is using all the Multi Layer Filmed Capacitors at the most important places of Audio signal paths to ensure of negating this effects.


beside that, the algorithms, the DSP techniques behind everything is also very important. The implementation is so vastly different that even within Sony itself, the DMP with DSD remastering to DSD64 is better than TA ZH1ES which does PCM to DSD128. Isn’t that crazy ? The way I see it, this is my observation between DMP which uses a lot of PmL caps as mentioned above and using AK4497EQ as a low bit processors instead of FPGA inside TA ZH1ES. As mentioned FPGA was never meant for dedicated audio processing.


you can read more about DMP Z1 and my impressions here

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/so...r-signature-series.23308/reviews#review-23083

 

[521994]

I wasn’t going to make a post of this style but then thought it can help the thread. Below is a list of posts this week from the 1A/1Z Sony DAP Thread here at Head-Fi. The motivation on my effort here in this post is to try and delineate the very fast and effective advances in DAP technology which is making these small portable devices much better than even big desktop applications even a few years ago. The DAC technology and amplifier technology is on another level with new FPGA ideas newly integrated into portable audio. That’s why these new devices are different than what you can do with a phone and different sounding that what you can buy from FiiO. Below we see the flagship Sony DMP-Z1 which stands as a reference and possibly a role model for how this technology will be miniaturized at a future date. Both the Sony 1Z and DMP-Z1 have been created by the same team and share many of the same inventions. This post is only to show that DAP technology is not ending but moving forward at an alarming rate providing us with sound quality that makes 2013 seem like the dark ages.


Reference Below
———————————————————————————————

Post #31066

I've read the document on the signatute of @Sonywalkmanuser , pretty interesting read of the S-MASTER, the anti-jitter precision in attoseconds, wow, that is even lower than these femto clocks... and the desktop version of S-Master has high voltage (or current) FETs in the output secrion, making the desktop amp capable of outputting 75W per channel for powering speakers.


I think sony can implement a mobile version of these Switching FETs to put more piwer in a walkman f.e 1W or 800mW





Post #31052

I do not know about the next Walkman....it isn’t totally impossible for S-Master to incorporate Low bit converter....only that the current S-Master HX is only Multi-bit. Who know what the next generation could bring ?


I can not speculate on those capacitors either. But if the trends from previous Walkman and Sony stay the same, then we could expect a lot of quality PML caps to dedicate toward music signal purity, Poscaps and electrolytic as well.


However, who knows when the next generation S-Master May come







Post #31057


I don't know what kind of secret sauce Sony added to the DSEE HX AI on the ZX507, I have already tried so many other mobile-based upsampling Iisted here:

Hibiki IOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/hibiki2f/id887091351

Korg Audiogate: https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/iaudiogate/

Neutron Music Player: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.neutroncode.mp&hl=en

TEAC HR player: http://audio.teac.com/product/hr_audio_player_for_ios/


The new Sony up-sampling algorithm is the first one that makes me want to upsample every of my music! All the other up-sampling Apps all have issues with blurriness or sounds overly sharpened. Although Korg and Hibiki is pretty decent.


I cannot imagine how DSEE-HX AI will sound on the WM1Z if that's possbile to be added in. Though I don't think it is possible as the DSEE-HX AI already consumes so much processing power of the ZX507(battery reduced by 30%-35% with DSP), the CPU on the WM1Z probably won't be able to do the AI processing.




Post #31047

AK4499EQ is a Delta-Sigma DAC. Walkman is always S-Master. If it isn’t S-Master, it isn’t a Walkman









Post #31021


I did not have Dave with MScaler. It was from a PC as a source. DSEE-HX is almost an up scaling feature that was detailed as bringing any files into High-resolutions. I never enjoyed it as much before, but now I do with DMP Z1.

Main differences is the soundstage presentation in XYZ expansiveness. Dave is more like Dome shaped presentation where the vertical plane is not as spherical as DMP. The timbres from Dave is dense and also somewhat warmth, but very different than DMP Z1. Dave sounds more like Digital where as DMP sounds more like Analog. The Dave was behind in Fluidity, density resolutions, textures details, and most importantly grainy. The DMP has utmost density resolutions, fluidity, textures details but buttery smooth, very fluid and liquid. The only thing I would pick on the DMP Z1 is the Warmth signature, but even so, every pitch, tempo, Chorus are all precisely and uniquely retrieved and reproduced for each different instruments and plays.


Yes, and error corrections, Jitter could come from Ceramic Capacitors. They cause Piezoelectric effects which we use on Crystal oscillators as a timing devices. These mechanical vibrations induce both electrical noises and physical noises into the signals, which cause the Signals to be contaminated or... carrying a lot of Error that should not have been. DMP Z1 is using all the Multi Layer Filmed Capacitors at the most important places of Audio signal paths to ensure of negating this effects.


beside that, the algorithms, the DSP techniques behind everything is also very important. The implementation is so vastly different that even within Sony itself, the DMP with DSD remastering to DSD64 is better than TA ZH1ES which does PCM to DSD128. Isn’t that crazy ? The way I see it, this is my observation between DMP which uses a lot of PmL caps as mentioned above and using AK4497EQ as a low bit processors instead of FPGA inside TA ZH1ES. As mentioned FPGA was never meant for dedicated audio processing.


you can read more about DMP Z1 and my impressions here

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/so...r-signature-series.23308/reviews#review-23083

The Sony flagship Walkman is an astonishing device but without streaming it is largely irrelevant. I am sure there is a market for it but niche

 

[Redcarmoose]

I suspect as CES2020 starts up, the days of simple daps are going limited. I suspect daps will have to adapt to a changing consumer, I personally would like the dap vendors to explore the small tablet form factor to offer a more interesting media consumption device, surf, video, audio, and still portable.

The problem is tablet devices are too noisy, what we are seeing is actually a simplification of this technology into what a pure audiophile would want. The technology is being developed and miniaturized to bring about pure sound quality. So Android is taken away, case material and construction is a priority. This trend with DAPs is actually to make sound quality most important. Only in this trajectory will you see a separation from what’s commonly available in the standard phone. As they continue to migrate away from what you can get with a phone the true value in just great music becomes the redeeming cause to buy one.

 

[Redcarmoose]

The Sony flagship Walkman is an astonishing device but without streaming it is largely irrelevant. I am sure there is a market for it but niche

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-sony-40th-anniversary-walkman-thread.909629/



https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-sony-nw-zx500.914486/

Note the newest Walkmans the zx500 and 40th Anniversary. They just came out this year. So Sony can offer streaming for that style of listening. Maybe someday Android will become audiophile? But at this point of course there are other audiophile DAP manufactures which offer it. The 1Z and 1A do not and they are unquestionably better sounding than the new releases. So it just depends on the user group. Some folks prefer not to stream music. Don’t know the trends or statistics. Non steaming could very well be a dinosaur in the DAP market?

 

[Redcarmoose]

The Sony flagship Walkman is an astonishing device but without streaming it is largely irrelevant. I am sure there is a market for it but niche

There is no Android that has 30 hour battery life. So maybe the small market is people who are fully focused on something they could take on a long flight and optimal sound quality. I’m not sure how largely irrelevant these devices are. Sony will most likely continue to offer DAPs without streaming catering to a specific audiophile market. We most likely will see a 1A MK2 and a 1Z MK2, as they have been a total success?

 

[521994]

There is no Android that has 30 hour battery life. So maybe the small market is people who are fully focused on something they could take on a long flight and optimal sound quality. I’m not sure how largely irrelevant these devices are. Sony will most likely continue to offer DAPs without streaming catering to a specific audiophile market. We most likely will see a 1A MK2 and a 1Z MK2, as they have been a total success?

Not sure if have been a success or not. About the specific audiophile market I get it I just don't think this market is big enough to sustain such a high end and expensive product.

 

[Redcarmoose]

There is no Android that has 30 hour battery life. So maybe the small market is people who are fully focused on something they could take on a long flight and optimal sound quality. I’m not sure how largely irrelevant these devices are. Sony will most likely continue to offer DAPs without streaming catering to a specific audiophile market. We most likely will see a 1A MK2 and a 1Z MK2, as they have been a total success?

Not sure if have been a success or not. About the specific audiophile market I get it I just don't think this market is big enough to sustain such a high end and expensive product.

Well that’s the thing. It was kind of a surprise to market a $1200 DAP and a $3200 DAP in 2016 when they came out. Then the DMP-Z1 came out last year around $9000. So they are statement products which hopefully will have technology trickle-down to more value priced stuff. It was a bold move to take, especially when they only play Bluetooth/DAC and play files. Where you have Android systems which do all kinds of stuff. Still go look how many 1A DAPs are in the “Post a picture of your portable” thread. We are the target market.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Not sure if have been a success or not. About the specific audiophile market I get it I just don't think this market is big enough to sustain such a high end and expensive product.

What expensive product? The 1Z yes, the DMP-Z1....yes.

But......

Sony 1A is almost mid-fi at $1200.

Mid-Fi for DAPS? This thread is about the DAP being alive or dead not about price? My posts show an evolution in technology progressing the DAP forward to a point fairly close to some desktop applications and surpassing other desktops in sound quality. If your comparing a DAP to a desktop then they really become a value at $1200. I actually don’t even use my desktop audio setup that much as sound is almost parallel?

 

[521994]

I actually compare the FiiO M11vs the iPhone with dragonfly. Regarding the cost of $1200 I don’t consider it at all. I mean it’s a monthly salary for many. So the discussion, at least from my side, it’s only between fiio and iPhone with cobalt.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I actually compare the FiiO M11vs the iPhone with dragonfly. Regarding the cost of $1200 I don’t consider it at all. I mean it’s a monthly salary for many. So the discussion, at least from my side, it’s only between fiio and iPhone with cobalt.

Good luck. Your test is absolutely a valid one, and at the (testing device) price point very pertinent. IMO And.........obviously a broader wider range of equipment makes the test more complete, but difficult to accomplish. Myself I use a 6th Generation IPod Touch all day long out and about town. When I’m home I’m using a DAP. So for much of my use outside even the regular DAP form is way too big. Though also as the years pass the IPod Touch sound quality experience and the DAP experience gets actually wider and wider apart. And it’s a funny conclusion for myself. The IPod is actually more non-colored and forward, where the DAPs offer a wider, more detailed experience, but at the same time it’s warmer and more laid-back. So to summarize, I’d almost conclude the DAPs had more distortion in the form of color? Though in the end there seems to be more detail due to the resolution and soundstage.

 

[notsimar]

Myself I use a 6th Generation IPod Touch all day long out and about town. When I’m home I’m using a DAP. So for much of my use outside even the regular DAP form is way too big.

A real life example of a user story that dap makers are failing to address. I too end up using my dap at home almost exclusively as I have no desire to carry another cumbersome device. I'd be more likely to carry a tablet that lets me consume audio and video than a dap.

 

[457139]

Hard to believe the miles you guys are getting out of this topic lol

 

[Redcarmoose]

Hard to believe the miles you guys are getting out of this topic lol

Well ya! And.....if I may address it? It was not long ago maybe 2009-2010 when DAPs didn’t really have a respectable place in the market. I was around and at Head-Fi people were piggybacking amps onto their iPod Classic Video players. And..:......it wasn’t a bad time either as far as sound quality. I remember Ray Samuels handing me one of his amplifier portable “stacks” connected to some rare Sennheiser full-size headphones and it was super quality. Then right around 2010 HiFiMan had these all and one DAPs? They were like the DAPs today only their firmware was buggy, and their interface was like a cheap cell-phone. But the idea of something portable with desktop power was intriguing. And.......by 2013 there was handfuls of DAPs, only again everyone had some style of firmware issue. The manufacturers never addressed the problems, but of course as audiophiles we tolerated the issues......like always. So fast forward six-seven more years and this is when DAPs have come of age. Few software issues, and they play all the files. Now some guy comes along and asks if the DAP is dead? Lol

https://www.headfonia.com/hifiman-hm-602-hi-fi-dap-perfected/

 

[noknok23]

I think dongles has never sounded this good, (look at E1DA 9038s, Meizu hifi pro, even apple(!) Is amazing)
It makes it not so obvious anymore to own an audiophile dap unless you aim for the $1K++ range or you hate smartphones.
That and the fact that most people do streaming nowadays.

 

[Redcarmoose]

A real life example of a user story that dap makers are failing to address. I too end up using my dap at home almost exclusively as I have no desire to carry another cumbersome device. I'd be more likely to carry a tablet that lets me consume audio and video than a dap.

The thing that’s scary is the DAP has the potential to rule Head-Fi. For myself I have started to gravitate towards IEMs. If you look at all of Head-Fi, people are moving towards IEMs in general.........now of course not everyone; but it’s a noticeable trend.

In hindsight I maybe don’t even need a desktop set-up. No full-size headphones at all. The DAP at home decodes streaming from a computer acting like a high quality DAC. It broadcasts and accepts Bluetooth, but if you go on vacation you can take it. Going to another room of the house......simply take the DAP. Laptop in another room......hooks up straight to the DAP as another system. Desktops don’t do this easy.

This is all right now in January of 2020, no additional technology development needed. The scary part is how close this same system set up could be used for full-size headphones if just a small extra amount of power could be generated by DAPs. There could be a foreseeable future when the desktop is obsolete......not the DAP.

Still I agree it’s not good taking big stuff around outside.