[kishorfarm]

  Thanks, I appreciate the reply.
Fortunately, as it happens to be, that there's a reseller of the Audio-gd gear where I live, so I'll try to listen to as much of it as I can before making a decision.

 
Please, tell us about your experience when you try it.

 

[Gloomy Moonie]

   
Please, tell us about your experience when you try it.

Sure thing

 

[Zack117]

I'm also eager to hear your impressions : )

 

[Gloomy Moonie]

  So... Finally got the chance to visit the local Audio-gd distributor, and listen to the Master 9, NFB-27, and both the NFB-11 and 15.
Had a lot of fun and positive impressions doing so, but before I dive into my rant review, I'd like to say that I am by no means an audiophile, so those of you who are would have to forgive any inaccuracies that you might notice. Despite that, I've made a point to be as objective and down to earth as I could, and with that said, here's what I've learned:
 
First I've listened to the more expensive Master 9 and the NFB-27, but I'll begin with the NFB-15 and 11 first, as those are the ones that I have the most to say about. What I should also note is that I've had no way of comparing them to either a smartphone (LG G3) nor a laptop for reference, which could've made the difference in the performance more apparent. But to get a little ahead of myself, I think I'll have enough opportunities to do that with my own unit. 
The NFB-11 was too bright with my K7XX, and lacked that joy factor everyone seem to talk about. The NFB-15 definitely wasn't as detailed, but was much more dynamic, so to speak. It really gave me the feeling that what I was hearing is a dedicated audio equipment, as opposed to the more analytical and bright NFB-11, which sounded dry in comparison. With the NFB-11 I constantly wanted to turn the volume knob higher, but couldn't because the highs were making my ears hurt.
The NFB-27 did not have that effect, despite being based on the same DAC chip, but I would be surprised if that wasn't the case, given the price. There was much more difference between the NFB-15 and 11 though, the 27 still had the Sabre's characteristic sound, only it sounded more refined and balanced, simply put.
Won't say much about the Master, as I think what I was hearing was more attributable to the DAC than the amp.
After that I've had the pleasure to listen to a russian Desireless "Voyage Voyage" cover on a turnable that he had, which probably made the strongest impression, that warm, analogue sound. Someday I am going to get myself one of these, for sure. The record had some crackling and skipping, but those were as crispy clear as the record itself, as it was played through the NFB-27 and Master 9. Those weren't audible through the speakers though.
I could summarize with saying that there wasn't any significant difference between the setups (aside from ear piercing highs), the rest would require a trained ear and A-B double blind testing, neither of which I had available. I can see how in combination with the law of diminishing return, all previously said makes this a very niche endeavour.
 
A few words about the headphones that I had at my disposal (Hifiman HE-400, Beyerdynamic DT880 (600 Ohm) - both balanced, AKG K7XX):
An interesting thing that I've noticed is the fact that comfort is significantly more impressionable than sound. The first headphones I've listened to the NFB-27 and the M9 through were the HE-400, and despite sounding as good as they did, the heft of those things didn't give me the chance to fully immerse myself into what I was hearing. To be fair, the total time that I had with them did not exceed 15 minutes, I guess this is something you get used to.
The second pair that I've listened to were the DT880 (600 Ohm), and they made me very pleasantly surprised with my K7XX. Maybe I missed something, but there was nothing even hinting to those having the resistance of 600 Ohm. If someone had put those on my head without telling me what they are I think I could've easily confuse them with the AKG K272 HD, as they sit almost exactly the same way on the head, clamping the ears with somewhat of a 'pillow' effect.Of course they're different sound-wise, but I do dare to say that they are closer to the 272 than the K7XX, in that they are more of a closed headphone than an open one, which reflects on the soundstage, making it intimate in comparison. 
When comparing the K7XX to the HE-400, there wasn't any breathtaking difference one would expect, given that those are not only different price brackets, but different technologies the headphones are built with. Of course the Hifimans had more resolution and perhaps more punch in the low-mid range, but the AKGs had a slighly spacier soundstage, and were much more comfortable to wear.
One more thing to note was that both the HE-400 and the DT880s sounded a tad bright with the NFB-27, not the K7XX though, for some odd reason. What I'm getting at is that there definitely is a pairing factor, when one DAC can sound dry and bright with one headphone, and dynamic and enjoyable with another (and vice-versa). I think by now you've already guessed, but I would be going with the NFB-15, as out of all of what I've heard it paired best with the K7XX. YMMV.
 
Audio: a couple of hi-res rock-guitar instrumentals, The Cure and that russian cover. It's a pity I hadn't listened to any classical music, it could've probably give the Sabre a better chance, and the headphones' separation ability more obvious, but to be realistic, rock/metal is what I mostly listen to anyways, so I guess it wasn't necessary.
 
P.S.: Thanks to the Audio-gd distributor, who was kind and patient enough to let me test and switch between the products several times .

 

[Zack117]

The NFB-11 was too bright with my K7XX, and lacked that joy factor everyone seem to talk about. The NFB-15 definitely wasn't as detailed, but was much more dynamic, so to speak. It really gave me the feeling that what I was hearing is a dedicated audio equipment, as opposed to the more analytical and bright NFB-11, which sounded dry in comparison. With the NFB-11 I constantly wanted to turn the volume knob higher, but couldn't because the highs were making my ears hurt.

Thank you very much for sharing your impressions. You did a very good job with describing your experiences with those devices.
 
I'm currently in the process of deciding between the NFB-15 and NFB-11 for my DT880 600Ohm and just like you, I also have a problem with bright, harsh sound. But I also like the sound to be as detailed and refined as possible because of the many different music genres I listen to. It's unfortunate that you didn't have a chance to try classical/orchestral music. Still, your impressions have already helped my out a lot.
 
Could you please write out your impressions about the difference between the NFB-15 and NFB-11 paired with the DT880 600Ohm?
I'm very curious on how these combinations sound in particular.

 

[Gloomy Moonie]

  Thank you very much for sharing your impressions. You did a very good job with describing your experiences with those devices.
 
I'm currently in the process of deciding between the NFB-15 and NFB-11 for my DT880 600Ohm and just like you, I also have a problem with bright, harsh sound. But I also like the sound to be as detailed and refined as possible because of the many different music genres I listen to. It's unfortunate that you didn't have a chance to try classical/orchestral music. Still, your impressions have already helped my out a lot.
 
Could you please write out your impressions about the difference between the NFB-15 and NFB-11 paired with the DT880 600Ohm?
I'm very curious on how these combinations sound in particular.

Thanks
 
Firstly, both the HE400 and the DT880 were rewired with a balanced connection, so I really had no chance to see how they sound with the NFB-11/15.
But from the vague memory I have from the brief listen I gave to the DT880, it was just a bit more bright than I would have liked, and that's with the NFB-27. If, as you've said, you intend to listen to a wide variety of genres, I personally would not go with a Sabre. It's not that I think Wolfson is a better DAC, for all it's worth, Kingwa himself told me a couple of times that the NFB-11 is both more detailed and dynamic than the 15, which goes against my observations and experience with the devices. But I don't think he's wrong, and here's why - not long ago after visiting the Audio-gd distributor, I've also visited the local hi-fi store, where I had the pleasure of listening to the HD800 through a setup that costs about twice the price of the headphones themselves. Naturally I took the K7XX with me for a comparison, and the most noticeable difference of all was the balance the HD800 had. They were even across the entire frequency range, while my K7XX displayed some brightness paired with the same equipment.
 
What I'm getting at is that I think that the more transparent the DAC is, the more flaws you will be able to notice with the other components of your setup, which is first and foremost the headphones. If yours cost $1k then it will be the other way around, but until then it's a compromise, where you have to look for a setup that matches your headphone, even if it means sacrificing detail. To corroborate my point, if you search around you'll notice that there seems to be a trend with the NFB-11, where people are saying that fatiguing to listen for longer periods of time, which is also what the Audio-gd guy said. I doubt that it's because of the product itself, rather than the headphones paired up with it. If yours have a brighter signature, then I'd personally steer away from anything that transparent. Even more so because both the HE-400 and the DT880 I've found to be brighter than the K7XX, and since the K7XX weren't all that pleasant sounding with the NFB-11, I can't imagine why the DT880 would. But then again, YMMV.
Another account of the importance of pairing would be the HDVD800, which while may not have the best DAC chip, is still optimized for the HD800. 
 
Having said all that, I cannot stress enough how minor those differences are. If you don't A-B test the NFB-11 & 15, I doubt that you'll really notice any decrease in detail, I know I didn't. Aside from the apparent musicality of the NFB-15, and the harshness of the NFB-11 there wasn't anything else I could say about them. As stated previously, one would need a trained ear and the appropriate environment to really notice those minute differences, and for me it isn't worth the hassle. If I had the means I would just get the aforementioned HD800, pair them up with the HDVD800 and be done with it, instead of having to spend countless amounts of time on reading reviews and comparisons. It's a part of the hobby, I know, but at some point it just begins to get over the top, which I'm sure you'll agree with. 
 
I'm not sure if you've seen my recent comment on the NFB-15 thread, but despite having reached the same conclusion you have in your comment, I think there is no going around compromises at such a price point. Really though the only significant ones I see would be that the NFB-15 is going to be discontinued when Audio-gd's WM8741 stock will run out, and the said horrible customer service. In my further discussion with Kingwa he said that "there is no other products will release soon on this price", which leaves us with the NFB-10 and 2, but both of them are already double the price of the 15. Idk, the case for the NFB-15 seems pretty compelling, especially since there is no apparent competition at this price point, at least not that I know of, and I've been pretty much begging to hear of alternatives. The only one that looks like a decent option is the Schiit combo, but it's very hard for me to believe that at such a size it can compete with either NFB-15 or 11. I'm not an electric engineer, but apart from power efficiency I doubt that there's anything else it can be superior at. Also goo.gl/6fjyZM, should speak for itself. But if you know of any other viable options, do let me know.
 
 
P.S.: It appears that the Audio-gd guy not only has a channel, but a video of the turntable, playing what I've listened to: youtu.be/aaRnjdwiSnA

 

[Zack117]

If I had the means I would just get the aforementioned HD800, pair them up with the HDVD800 and be done with it, instead of having to spend countless amounts of time on reading reviews and comparisons. It's a part of the hobby, I know, but at some point it just begins to get over the top, which I'm sure you'll agree with. 

You've really convinced me. Thank you very much.
Yes, I agree with you. Sure, there are people who see a hobby in the (re-)search itself and while that is absolutely legitimate, that's not me. Full time job does not allow a lot of hobbies and regarding audio technology, I just want to offer my ears the best experience possible with my current accessible means. Life's too short to not to do so
That's actually why I was aiming for something in the 1500-2000€ price range like for instance a Violectric V200+V800 in order to have something for the long term. But that's a LOT of money to me and getting/hearing other headphones models would probably make more sense before considering such an high grade setup. Also the question remains if I can hear the difference and if this differences would justify the price for me. It's unfortunate that there isn't a shop nearby in which I could test all those things out instead of exclusively rely on the internet. Trying out different headphones, amps and dac's. That would make many things much less time consuming.

  I'm not sure if you've seen my recent comment on the NFB-15 thread, but despite having reached the same conclusion you have in your comment, I think there is no going around compromises at such a price point. Really though the only significant ones I see would be that the NFB-15 is going to be discontinued when Audio-gd's WM8741 stock will run out, and the said horrible customer service. In my further discussion with Kingwa he said that "there is no other products will release soon on this price", which leaves us with the NFB-10 and 2, but both of them are already double the price of the 15. Idk, the case for the NFB-15 seems pretty compelling, especially since there is no apparent competition at this price point, at least not that I know of, and I've been pretty much begging to hear of alternatives. The only one that looks like a decent option is the Schiit combo, but it's very hard for me to believe that at such a size it can compete with either NFB-15 or 11. I'm not an electric engineer, but apart from power efficiency I doubt that there's anything else it can be superior at. Also goo.gl/6fjyZM, should speak for itself. But if you know of any other viable options, do let me know.

Are you saying the size of an amp/dac can give an indication about it's capability? I don't know about that but my FiiO E17 is about half of the size of a smartphone, though thicker build, and is imo an HUGE upgrade from a naked player device with build in "amp/dac".

 

[kishorfarm]

I'd like to rescue this thread to share my experience. After trying some other amps, I've realized that the Audio GD NFB-11 is not powerful enough to drive the HE-500. Is not until I bought a better amp (Marantz PM6003), that I started enjoying the marvelous HE-500. Now I use the NFB-11 as a very good but expensive DAC.
 
Nevertheless, with other headphones, like the CAL!, the NFB-11 does a very good job.
 
Summing up, I still think that the power figures given by Audio GD are misleading and deceptive.

 

[cel4145]

I'd like to rescue this thread to share my experience. After trying some other amps, I've realized that the Audio GD NFB-11 is not powerful enough to drive the HE-500. Is not until I bought a better amp (Marantz PM6003), that I started enjoying the marvelous HE-500. Now I use the NFB-11 as a very good but expensive DAC.

Nevertheless, with other headphones, like the CAL!, the NFB-11 does a very good job.

Summing up, I still think that the power figures given by Audio GD are misleading and deceptive.

You do know that the HE-500s have the reputation on Head-Fi for being the most difficult to drive headphones short of electrostatics? So this is a bit like claiming that your F150 is not perfect for pulling a horse trailer with 4 horses in it.

At the same time, why assume that the Audio-GDs specs are misleading? Where are you getting your numbers to calculate the power needs of your headphones?

The reason that I bring all this up is that I have the HE-400s and the AKG K612, both of which have a reputation for being a bit difficult to drive. And my NFB-11 seems to drive both a bit more easily than my Asgard 2, which would be the other popular powerful headphone regularly recommended in this budget range (when you consider that one has to buy a DAC to go with the Asgard 2). So seems to me the problem is the HE-500s, not the NFB-11.

 

[kishorfarm]

You do know that the HE-500s have the reputation on Head-Fi for being the most difficult to drive headphones short of electrostatics? So this is a bit like claiming that your F150 is not perfect for pulling a horse trailer with 4 horses in it.

At the same time, why assume that the Audio-GDs specs are misleading? Where are you getting your numbers to calculate the power needs of your headphones?

The reason that I bring all this up is that I have the HE-400s and the AKG K612, both of which have a reputation for being a bit difficult to drive. And my NFB-11 seems to drive both a bit more easily than my Asgard 2, which would be the other popular powerful headphone regularly recommended in this budget range (when you consider that one has to buy a DAC to go with the Asgard 2). So seems to me the problem is the HE-500s, not the NFB-11.

 
Ouput power published specs:
 

1.     Epiphany O2/ODAC: 641mW @ 33Ω
2.     Violectric V90: 1300 mW @ 32Ω
3.     Violectric V200: 2000 mW @ 32Ω.

 
And now: NFB-11: 3500mW @ 25Ω, 1800mW @ 50Ω
 
With this figures in mind, I thought the NFB-11 should offer a noticeable power boost compared to the O2/ODAC. After buying the NFB-11 I checked that the output power was almost the same. The NFB-11 offered a more refined sound, but the Audio GD 3W @ 33Ω was more or less equivalent to the O2 640mW @ 33Ω. On the other hand, the Violectric V90 and V200 are commonly known for driving the HE-500 properly. Surprisingly, the NFB-11 published power is 50% higher than the V200.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but for me there is something wrong with the Audio GD power specs.

 

[cel4145]

After buying the NFB-11 I checked that the output power was almost the same.

It takes +10db to have a perceived doubling in volume.

Doubling the wattage only gives you +3db increase in volume. Doubling again only +6db total increase. Doubling again +9db. And so forth.

So if it was louder to you, perhaps your expectations were off for the increase in volume.