[Albedo]

Well, I do not use strands of silver plated UP-OCC wrapped up in Teflon because I'm convinced by this..
 
Tommy Jenving: (rest of the interview -> http://www.tnt-audio.com/intervis/suprae.html)

Teflon is highly spoken of, among audiophiles. Yes, for an interconnect it has good properties but for a speaker cable it makes only a meaninglessly high price. However, even better is our gasblown PE-foam. This can be explained: The velocity factor is to be as high as possible for a digital interconnect as well as for a video interconnect and this velocity factor is directly depending on the capacitance of the insulation. This is easy to understand if you consider the switching surges in the material. Thereof we can easily see the direct connection between high frequency properties, propagation velocity and dielectric properties.

So, why do we not use Teflon? Simply because our gas blown PE is of an even lower capacitance and is much more economic to process in production. We simply make a better cable at a lower price! The propagation velocity of Supra DAC is 78% of the speed of light. With Teflon it would be 69%. Another parameter of importance at high frequencies is the characteristic impedance which is also directly depending on the geometry and dielectric of the cable.

-
The facts that silver has a lower resistance than copper and that the silver oxide is conductive do not make it a suitable material for wire plating in speaker cables. The OFC copper is fine, but how long time does it stay Oxygen Free, unless you protect it by plating? A PVC- insulation is for example emitting chloride ions that make copper-chloride on the copper wire surface, a process that accelerates with current flow through the cable in use. This problem is increased by the fact that the strands of a wire are twisted, leading to the current jumping from strand to strand when trying to go the straightest runway. Thus, the current passes the oxide of the the surfaces of the strands thousands of times per meter run in a cable.

So, what is the use of the OFC? Silver plating is a no good solution to this as it even increases the surface run, by means of its lower resistance. And the silver oxide, although conductive, makes diodicity thresholds and non-linearity. So, again, we choosed the opposite way. We tin-plated the strands, instead, as tin has a higher resistance, hence, making the current mainly be kept inside the copper which stays OFC, with less jumps and less oxide. Again, a better result at a lower price. Silver is, however, good for high frequency applications.

 
Maybe I should buy five feet of this -> https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1248 (204 strands) and some polyethylene foam tape and start my business here at Head-Fi?

 

[Black Stuart]

Albedo,
the article was very interesting. Production costs were mentioned - PE foam being used as a cheaper alternative to Teflon. What Tommy Jenving did'nt highlight was the fact that his conductors are 'wrapped' ie. no air allowed to get to the copper wire.
 
He does'nt like silver plated copper simply because as he said "silver is not a good solution because it even increases the surface run". The interpretation can only mean that because his company 'wraps' the wire with PE foam (cheaper than Teflon) using silver means that a bigger percentage of the signal then travels via the conductor surface. His company has obviously done tests that show that bare wire conducts much, much better than a wrapped wire, something that I have done myself but does'nt use this method of 'air dialectric' because - surprise, surprise it is more costly and time consuming and is not something that can be done by machine.
 
Why is stranded wire preferred by commercial operations - because it is perceived to have a longer life and there will be far less returns (bad publicity). This in fact is pure b/s. I read many accounts of this 'received wisdom/b/s' so I sat night after night, either when listening to music or surfing, twiddling in all directions a piece of the wire which I use for my i/cs and h/phone cables - 26AWG silver plated OFHC solid core wire. You know I never managed to get it to break, I thought it could only be a question of time - it never happened.
 
I use silver plated OFHC wire because I have yet to hear of anyone making silver plated UP-OCC solid core wire. Even if I do, would the trade-off of slighty better signal flow equate to what I would imagine would be a far higher cost base - the law of diminishing returns but I would like to try it none the less.
 
 Tommy Jenving argument about stranded wire is straight physics - I do not twist the multiple conductors that I use  for that very reason - yes I've done the AB experiment and the difference is there. Using sheilding on i/cs/h/phone cables just restricts and constrains the music.
 
I used to use a low loss sat. cable for making i/cs - stripping out the centre conductor and using the polyethelene air celled structure to carry the conductor wires  - once I had found a source for reasonably priced Teflon tubing here in Europe I bought some. There is no way that I would ever return to using PE - there simply is no comparison between the two. 
 
Albedo why not make two sets of i/cs using your stranded wire and PE foam tape and then using silver/SPC (not cheap jewellers SPC or silver, those wires are great for making jewellery but crap for audio applications) for one and another using bare SPC or silver solid core, just make sure it is quality wire in either case and using oversized Teflon tubing as dialectric - compare the two and get back to this thread.
 
So is it possible to make a really effective improvement to stock cables - yes. Even if you make it yourself, if you use the best materials it will cost and what many forget when they criticise the price is the amount of time it takes to make i/cs or especially a 9 foot h/phone cable and handling slippery Teflon tubing - do those who criticise work for nothing - no I thought not.
 
Does anyone else think that phono jacks are not a good idea  - that great big plug of metal. My h/amp has two sockets - I intend to convert them to either XLR or RCA, so seperate L & R chassis sockets and since after much searching I have found a relatively cheap RCA plug that blows away the outrageously expensive Eichmans, I'm leaning in the RCA direction. 

 

[wsoelivan]

In my opinion, the cable material, length and size would change the signature of a phone. Those 3 factors change the total resistance of your headphone. I believe we'll see a slight change in frequency response with different cable being used. I also believe this slight change won't always lead to a better sound thing. It all depends on your sound signature preference.
 
However, whether this slight change is audible or not (few dB change, or maybe 0.0x dB), I'm not the one to answer. 

 

[jellojoe]

Did you guys forget that beeman is using cables made by scooter here?
 
 
Quote:

'Don't knock it until you have tried it'. Following your own advice why don't you shoot yourself in the foot? There are loads of things that it is not a very good idea to do and we do not need to try them ourselves to find out why.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

In my opinion, the cable material, length and size would change the signature of a phone. Those 3 factors change the total resistance of your headphone. I believe we'll see a slight change in frequency response with different cable being used. I also believe this slight change won't always lead to a better sound thing. It all depends on your sound signature preference.
 
However, whether this slight change is audible or not (few dB change, or maybe 0.0x dB), I'm not the one to answer. 

The answer to audibility lies in the test we must not speak of in this part of the forum.

 
Quote:

Did you guys forget that beeman is using cables made by scooter here?
 
 

 

Beeman is harder to pin down than a fly and there will never be any convincing him. It does not matter what cables he uses or what the evidence is, he is right.

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Tommy Jenving argument about stranded wire is straight physics

 
No. The whole "strand jumping" nonsense is a load of tripe.
 
se
 
 
 

 

[gsilver]

I'll just say this: I like my $3 interconnects

 

[Backwardsman]

1&2:  Depends how much your money is worth.

 

[Black Stuart]

Steve Eddy - that is a very unscientific response but par for the course.
 
Prog rock man, if the Sony cable was so thin why did you buy it - because of the name - not very clever that was it?
 
Anti-cablers keep using the word 'belief' which has nothing to do with anything, maybe they are all religious or political freaks - quien save! 
 
Holoxt suggested making up a pair of cables to do your own test with - no response, well what a surprise that is!.
 
Patrick only buys cables but never makes them and then spouts like a prophet and yes as someone said so many anti-cablers are offensive.
 
As always I ask if anti-cablers have ever had hearing tests - not one has come back to say yes they have and here they are demanding scientific proof. All kosher scientific tests start by eliminating any intangebles otherwise any test is a nonsense - so that must mean that a hearing test is obligatory yes? - why are the anti-cablers so reluctant to encounter the 'reality' of their individual hearing capabilities. This has to be the start point - I won't hold my breath for any intelligent response to this.
 
Haloxt - you made a very good point about wire gauge. What I feel is more important is total surface area, that is why I started working with multiple conductors - 26AWG = 0.4mm; 4 x 0.4mm = 1.6mm but the surface area of the 4 x 0.4mm is far greater than a single 1.6mm surface area. This of course is only relevant if an air dialectric is used.
 
Signal cables have only one function to perform - to relay  the input signal without adding or subtracting anything - ergo it should be 100% neutral - that is what those who make cables should strive for. Using cables to change the characteristics of a source is just plain wrong. A neutral signal cable should expose any shortcomings in the source (if they exist) and this allows component changes to be made to correct 'brightness or lumpy bass etc.
 
Strange that none of the anti-cablers had anything to say about phono jacks and alternative  connections and they say they are being scientific - it could just be that they hav'nt got a clue.
 
 

 

[Albedo]

Black Stuart: I've seen some report of pure copper vs. pure silver, but I'll put my money into a product (like Supra) which pays attention to isolation. Their most expensive loudspeaker cable (Sword) uses enameled OFC wire and costs about $600 for 2 x 10 feet. When I back in the nineties bought some cables for connecting my DAC to the preamplifier I went a little overboard and spent (in my mind) a lot of $ for some good isolated copper, mainly just to get a piece of mind and never again worrying about cables. 
 
As I see it (not tested) silver is IMHO just bling (ring) when it comes to speaker/ headphone cables, my hard earned cash I'll rather invest in the other part of the chain where the difference is both audible and measurable. There's always the price vs. performance and where the curve flattens out into the plains of the beyonder High End and in that world post-purchase rationalization seems to dominate.
 
I'd rather keep my sense and my money, when I come it think about it.. IMHO it's more like what Luther said in Thesis 28: "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs"

 

[maverickronin]

Its not just based on our hearing.  Its also based on your hearing because whenever you golden ears are properly tested, you can't tell pure silver from zip cord.  Its not just us skeptics.  Even if us cloth eared gits can't tell the difference ourselves, it doesn't mean a difference can't be demonstrated to us, assuming one actually existed.  Thus far, no one has been able to objectively demonstrate such a difference.  Our position is not based solely on our own subjective experiences.  We also consider objective experiments conducted by others.  One does not have to have done something first hand to have a basic understanding of it.
 
In addition, wire gauge only matters because of resistance, and the rule of thumb is to keep the resistance of the wire below 5% of nominal transducer impedance.  Because nearly all headphones have greater impedance than typical loudspeaker (usually much greater) thinner gauge wire can be used without affecting the sound.  Unless you are using exceptionally low impedance 'phones or running very long extensions, wire gauge is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Steve Eddy - that is a very unscientific response but par for the course.
 
Prog rock man, if the Sony cable was so thin why did you buy it - because of the name - not very clever that was it?
 
Anti-cablers keep using the word 'belief' which has nothing to do with anything, maybe they are all religious or political freaks - quien save! 
 
Holoxt suggested making up a pair of cables to do your own test with - no response, well what a surprise that is!.
 
Patrick only buys cables but never makes them and then spouts like a prophet and yes as someone said so many anti-cablers are offensive.
 
As always I ask if anti-cablers have ever had hearing tests - not one has come back to say yes they have and here they are demanding scientific proof. All kosher scientific tests start by eliminating any intangebles otherwise any test is a nonsense - so that must mean that a hearing test is obligatory yes? - why are the anti-cablers so reluctant to encounter the 'reality' of their individual hearing capabilities. This has to be the start point - I won't hold my breath for any intelligent response to this.
 
Haloxt - you made a very good point about wire gauge. What I feel is more important is total surface area, that is why I started working with multiple conductors - 26AWG = 0.4mm; 4 x 0.4mm = 1.6mm but the surface area of the 4 x 0.4mm is far greater than a single 1.6mm surface area. This of course is only relevant if an air dialectric is used.
 
Signal cables have only one function to perform - to relay  the input signal without adding or subtracting anything - ergo it should be 100% neutral - that is what those who make cables should strive for. Using cables to change the characteristics of a source is just plain wrong. A neutral signal cable should expose any shortcomings in the source (if they exist) and this allows component changes to be made to correct 'brightness or lumpy bass etc.
 
Strange that none of the anti-cablers had anything to say about phono jacks and alternative  connections and they say they are being scientific - it could just be that they hav'nt got a clue.
 
 

Black Stuart, I bought the Sony extension off Amazon because of its price. I did not realise about the issue with is construction and tangling until after I had started to use it. Then you say "not very clever was it?" which is offensive and yet you crticise others for being offensive.
 
Belief is a perfectly reasonable word to use in these threads. I believe in the evidence of my experience and blind tests. Nothing religious or political there and you say "freaks" which is offensive, again.
 
I have taken a hearing test and my hearing is as it should be for someone who is mid forty.
 
I posted elsewhere just yesterday about the importance of phono jacks and the connection of wire to jack and jack into plug and that too much emphasis is put on the cable itself. And there you go being offensive again, tut tut!

 

[Bostonears]

Forum title: "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)"
So much for that.

 

[Steve Eddy]

 
Quote:

Steve Eddy - that is a very unscientific response but par for the course.
 

 

*yawwwwwwwwn*
 
se

 

[Albedo]

Quote:

Forum title: "Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)"
So much for that.

 
Well some of us don't see the point in paying through the nose, when for example a Mogami Quad (with Polyethylene insulation) is a more sane alternative, $0,63 pr. foot: http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=505
 
Here's a thread with one forum member considering his choices: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/494058/my-experience-with-mogami-quad-for-hd650-cable