[haloxt]

Well, since you asked me that question I will play devil's advocate a bit hehe. It's true that pro-cablers sometimes wrongly believe with conviction that, for example, a $5000 interconnect "improves" the sound. In many ways, but not all, having a short hardwire connection is theoretically superior to having ANY cable, even if the cable costs a million dollars. Sometimes pro-cablers may completely overlook this fact when forming their opinions or making decisions about cables.
 
In my mind, cables are usually just a necessary evil, or at least a theoretical evil, and should be treated as such. I'm not saying all the different factors in cables are therefore unimportant, but that we should not mistake cables as something that improves sound in most cases, but something that can prevent degradation, real or theoretical. Or else consider cables as something to tailor or tweak the sound to your liking.

 

[spacemanspliff]

Well, rewiring the headphone, like the headphile modded AKG 340 or ALO modded 780 which I had, makes a difference. To me, it was a huge improvement over stock. Like unclogging the drain. It let the music flow out far easier than before. Both headphones were modified though. Not just a cable switch. I think the diode board in the 780 was bypassed or removed and both were rewired internally.

 

[Black Stuart]

Haloxt,
I agree with much of what you say but looking back on all the threads about cables I have never seen a single pro-cabler initiate offensive remarks. It is the utter BELIEF of the anti-cablers that they are right that is so funny and at the same time so dangerous when applied on a religious or political basis.
 
Then up pops Limidglitch and Innerspace talking rationally and from real world experience, please more posts from you two.
 
Haloxt made a spot on remark about designers and their interpretation of 'acccurate reproduction' - each of us brings their whole baggage into any appreciation of literally anything but honest experience in such cases will almost certainly yield an area of agreement  - would'nt it be terrible if we were all androids and had no differences at all - not a world that I would want to live in.
 
Prog Rock man - if you had regaled us with your story about the Sony cable and ended with - was'nt I silly to buy that - but you did'nt - you were silly to buy on price but your ego can't take that. I'm always suspicious of those who are so certain they are right, it smacks of insecurity. Life has taught me that I can always be wrong and on my quest to make a really good i/c I took many wrong paths BUT I learned from all those mistakes far more than if I had got it right (my opinion) at the beginning.
 
Steve Eddy - you made a ridiculous statement and have had ample chance to counter my agreement with Jenving - yawn does'nt do it.
 
Albedo - bling is something you can see - you can't see what quality of conductor material has been used even inside Teflon tubing. Your religious quote says it all really BTW Luther was a rabid anti-Semite and his words were used extensively by the Nazis to justify their extermination campaign.
 
 When I lived in Spain I met this guy who decided to build a sound system for his converted Thames barge circa 1972 and one day he was in Maplins/UK (which used to carry a huge range of components for those who wanted to build hi-fi gear) and whilst waiting in the queue a man behind him said "I see your buying bits to build your own speakers, I've got a few friends coming round tonight to listen to music, your welcome to visit".
 
So Phil turned up as arranged and an LP was put on the TT but after only one track it was removed and a discussion ensued about treble response bla bla bla - and so it went on for over 2 hours. Eventually Phil had had enough he said " when are we actually going to listen to some music" - as one they turned on him and said "sod the music we've got more important things to discuss" - at which point Phil left.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

You probably know this already, but there is a point at which the resistance will be too high.
 
If I remember correctly Roger Russell has recommended a maximum of 5% of the transducers nominal impedance. 
The maximum resistance will therefore vary between different headphones. With a 300Ω HD800 it will be 15Ω, or a 178 metre run of 24AWG copper wire. (disregarding the effects caused by increased capacitance and inductance)
While with a 32Ω Grado it would be a 'mere' 19 metres with the same wire. I do not know what headphones you were using, but that Sony extension cord was definitely nowhere close to 24AWG equivalent.
Do you still have it around? It would be nice to know what it rated.
I suspect it to be of that thin enameled type that most headphone cords are made of, which is .5Ω/m, meaning a 3.2 metre run would be the limit for a Grado.
Now Russell considers this to be a conservative precaution, so I'm just saying there might be more than a change in volume you heard.

I used it with the Goldring NS1000 as its cable made by QED is too short for me. That headphone has a rating of; NR on 300ohms SPL 101, NR off 100ohms SPL 93 and I used it NR off. The actual Sony cable is this one from Amazon -
 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Earphone-Extension-Plated-Mobile-Phones/dp/B001PPGSMI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1285341557&sr=8-1
 
, so between the two cables the total length was 2m.

 

[limpidglitch]

Ah, seems like you were in the clear then

 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

One question I don't understand, why would anybody care what another pays for a cable when obviously, it's a voluntary decision.  Especially when paying more than most are willing to spend on a set of headphones.
 
If somebody is paying under a couple hundred dollars for a set of cans, if they weren't into cables, you think they'd pay four hundred bucks for a stupid set of cables as opposed to a better set of headphones?  Most folks buying habits are directly inline with available discretionary income.  If somebody likes buying fancy stainless steel gas grills, fancy rims, or a tricked out bass boat, does anybody care?  And if somebody wants to spend ten grand on a turntable, buy an expensive pair of skies or a tricked out snowmobile, is it anybody's business?  But somehow, for the anti-cable crowd, what others buy is now their business, raison d'etre, and they're going save the "naive" from the deception of those who manufacture, promote and use headphone cables.
 

This question has been answered on numerous occasions. If people are presented with both sides of the argument and make a decision, fine. But on this and many other hifi forums and in the majority of hifi magazines, the consumer is presented with almost exclusively the pro-side's claims. This forum bans one of the anti-cable's prime arguments to one part of the forum. The anti-cable side is marginalised and the pro-cable side get to make very spurious claims about cable performance.
 
All I want is a level playing field where people can make decisions based on both sides of the argument.

 

[haloxt]

Black Stuart, I mostly only poke fun at anti-cablers because they are usually the religiously fanatic. If pro-cablers made it a habit of harassing science forums with the sort of conviction anti-cablers have, I would be just as critical of them.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

I may have already done something similar to your suggestion haloxt. I bought a Sony headphone extension cable that did sound strangled and I had to turn the volume up to get a decent sound. It was very thin and tangled easily. Since it only cost £4 I then ditched it in favour of a £5 extension cable from ThatCable. I could turn the volume back down again and it did not tangle. I could get the same SQ out of both cables, but was happier with one over the other, so had psychoacoustic reasons to prefer it and there was a slight change in volume, which made it appear there was actually a difference.
 
I have no idea what the differences, if any in the awg of either cable.

 
Quote:

Haloxt,
I agree with much of what you say but looking back on all the threads about cables I have never seen a single pro-cabler initiate offensive remarks. It is the utter BELIEF of the anti-cablers that they are right that is so funny and at the same time so dangerous when applied on a religious or political basis.
 
Then up pops Limidglitch and Innerspace talking rationally and from real world experience, please more posts from you two.
 
Haloxt made a spot on remark about designers and their interpretation of 'acccurate reproduction' - each of us brings their whole baggage into any appreciation of literally anything but honest experience in such cases will almost certainly yield an area of agreement  - would'nt it be terrible if we were all androids and had no differences at all - not a world that I would want to live in.
 
Prog Rock man - if you had regaled us with your story about the Sony cable and ended with - was'nt I silly to buy that - but you did'nt - you were silly to buy on price but your ego can't take that. I'm always suspicious of those who are so certain they are right, it smacks of insecurity. Life has taught me that I can always be wrong and on my quest to make a really good i/c I took many wrong paths BUT I learned from all those mistakes far more than if I had got it right (my opinion) at the beginning.
 
...........

 
You and Beeman have made offensive remarks. EDIT - and just spotted haloxt's post above, so I'll add him in as well. Please link to any offensive remark I have made and I will apologise for it.
 
Your criticism of the anti-cable belief system applies more so to the pro side. If evidence of an actual property in a cable that accounts for audible sound differences from cables, then I and the majority of the anti side will keep doing what we are already doing and go with the evidence.
 
I bought the wrong cable, realised my mistake and bought another one. I then in admitted that here. Where is the issue with ego there?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

Apologies for the wordy post, but I have an observation based on practical, real-world, real-money-at-stake experience.
 
1)  I worked many years in the production and broadcast industry.  Amps, microphones, mixers and speakers were bought by the dozens (sometimes by the hundreds) and consistency was very important.  A guy had to be able to work a week in one suite and then move to another without hearing differences in what he was doing.  We spent major effort making sure that the "XYZ Mk 2" we bought one month sounded like the exact same model we bought the previous month.  Manufacturers worked very, very hard to maintain consistency month to month and year to year.  It was very difficult, because - and this is slightly metaphysical, I know - any two items *are* by definition physically different, and therefore may sound different.  Even two supposedly identical things - two stock HP cables made on different days - are different.  Certainly two amps made in different months are different.
 
2)  Are these differences audible?  Yes, absolutely, especially in things with lots of, or moving, parts.  We got so paranoid we developed testing protocols, and because engineers are endlessly curious, eventually they investigated cables.  The proposition was this: if a cable makes an audible difference, that can only mean the sound waves leaving the loudspeaker are different.  So a mike was set up, and it fed an ADC, and the bitstream output was captured, and compared sample to sample.  (I'm simplifying a little - eliminating atmospheric and noise-floor variation and syncing the sample starts required some work.)  It was considered that this was a neutral, stress-free test - no human variability involved, and it could be repeated endlessly.  It was a purely arithmetic comparison: were the zeroes and ones in the same place in the sequence or not?
 
3)  Answer - no, they weren't.  Not even close.  Tested at the 16-bit level, every cable was different, including samples of the same cable from the same box.
 
4)  But ... these cable differences were arithmetically much, much smaller than the differences between more complex items manufactured at different times.
 
5)  Therefore ... purely for the sake of example ... logically it would make more sense to stick with stock cables and instead audition a long sequence of samples of your favorite amp and favorite headphones.  The variation between any two HD800s or any two LCD-2s built even days apart will be more significant in terms of audibility than the difference between lamp cord and Cardas.

Quote:

Mostly very minor to the ears - the grossest were between microphones, and even then there was only a vague impression of, "I don't like that one."  Differences between amp samples were generally real-world inaudible.  Cables, too.  My overall impression was (to use a scenario we can all relate to): if say, there is a 100-point difference (on some arbitrary scale) between a Sony XB700 and a Senn HD800, then amp sample differences might score 0.01 points, and cable differences 0.0001 points.  Just my two cents.

Sorry, I don't follow the above highlighted comments. How does 'not even close' square with a difference of 0.01 and 0.0001?

 

[Albedo]

Quote:

Albedo - bling is something you can see - you can't see what quality of conductor material has been used even inside Teflon tubing. Your religious quote says it all really BTW Luther was a rabid anti-Semite and his words were used extensively by the Nazis to justify their extermination campaign.

 
Me calling it bling was to some degree a cheap way to provoke when I wrapped it up with a Luther quote, but Jenving comment on silver vs. tin and retaining the oxidation to a bare minimum do make sense to me, both in a technical and economical way. Same goes for insulation, Teflon vs. Polyethylene and the most rational choice concerning low capacitance. That's why I see silver plated Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast copper insulated with Teflon as a waste of money. On the other hand it sounds impressive, it rings a certain tone of exclusiveness in my mind.
 
Though.. going all military and professional with the Japanese Mogami.. regular oxygen-free copper insulated with cross-linked polyethylene, if we continuing on the WWII thought.. it's rather appealing. You can call me a cable-nazi, but I'm sticking to my allies.

 

[haloxt]

Something you notice about anti-cablers is that they very often seem oblivious to the fact that there are many top audio manufacturers who "believe cables make a difference". Ask speaker companies and cable companies and most would tell you to run cables only the length you need to improve damping factor and prevent audible degradation in bass. It's almost like anti-cablers are trapped in their own little world where the enemy is the strawman of a person who refuses to believe in the "irrefutable" DBT that can prove anything.
 
Anyone who is sane, I suggest you just walk away from this debate. The world will still go on, audio cable manufacturers will keep on improving cable specs and make adequate cables for professional use, boutique cable companies will still be selling $20/ft cables, anti-cablers will still be angry and argue impotently.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

There are also audio manufacturers who do not believe cables make a difference, McIntosh, Rega and Musical Fidelity for example. I have not see any anti-cable argument against your comment on cable length.
Anti-cables are also open to other evidence as well as DBT, such as comparing a signal going in and out of a cable to see if there is a difference.
 
Your last sentence is true for the pro-cable side as well.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

This question has been answered on numerous occasions. If people are presented with both sides of the argument and make a decision, fine. But on this and many other hifi forums and in the majority of hifi magazines, the consumer is presented with almost exclusively the pro-side's claims. This forum bans one of the anti-cable's prime arguments to one part of the forum. The anti-cable side is marginalised and the pro-cable side get to make very spurious claims about cable performance.
 
All I want is a level playing field where people can make decisions based on both sides of the argument.

A level playing field .... Hah!
 
Are cable experiences here discussed any differently from that of any other piece of gear here or in hifi magazines?  Does the fact that a piece of gear measures differently from another mean that it necessarily sounds better, much better... annihilates another, is on a different level from another etc. etc. etc.?
 
I think it's just that you like discussing cables.  I see no altruistic intentions whatsoever, just as you hear no differences in cables that I do.  It's all about our minds playing tricks on us right?  We convince ourselves of all sorts of things that aren't really true.... right? 

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man:
You and Beeman have made offensive remarks.

 
Not unprovoked.  Procablers usually are minding their own business while sharing their experiences.  They simply defend themselves when the going gets rough.  As I've said before... I'm always surprised at the man who complains about being bitten after he repeatedly kicks a sleeping dog previously known not be violent.
 
Quote:

There are also audio manufacturers who do not believe cables make a difference, McIntosh, Rega and Musical Fidelity for example. I have not see any anti-cable argument against your comment on cable length.
Anti-cables are also open to other evidence as well as DBT, such as comparing a signal going in and out of a cable to see if there is a difference.
 
Your last sentence is true for the pro-cable side as well.

I think the point being made is that there's reputable opinion on both sides of the fence, not just on the anti-cable side. 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

 
Quote:

A level playing field .... Hah!
 
Are cable experiences here discussed any differently from that of any other piece of gear here or in hifi magazines?  Does the fact that a piece of gear measures differently from another mean that it necessarily sounds better, much better... annihilates another, is on a different level from another etc. etc. etc.?
 
I think it's just that you like discussing cables.  I see no altruistic intentions whatsoever, just as you hear no differences in cables that I do.  It's all about our minds playing tricks on us right?  We convince ourselves of all sorts of things that aren't really true.... right? 

 
 
Not unprovoked.  Procablers usually are minding their own business while sharing their experiences.  They simply defend themselves when the going gets rough.  As I've said before... I'm always surprised at the man who complains about being bitten after he repeatedly kicks a sleeping dog previously known not be violent.
 

I think the point being made is that there's reputable opinion on both sides of the fence, not just on the anti-cable side. 

It is not a level playing field here due to the DBT ban on the majority of the site.
 
Cable debates get out of hand on most forums, I do think that this one is one of the worst.
 
I think that equipment measurement is interesting, but I would not buy anything on a measurement alone.
 
I think that you also like discussing cables, I obviously do. Now I know about the evidence which suggests cables make no difference, I do not hear a difference. I do not think that is my mind playing tricks, I think it is because my mind is no longer playing tricks on me.
 
I have made a few comments on DBT elsewhere on the forum in the past, but have not pursed the matter and have stopped now. If anyone felt provoked by that I apologise. Bear in mind the sound science part of the forum is a free for all. Maybe it should have a rule of post only if you have evidence to back up what you say.
 
Please show me where I have been offensive. Your sleeping dogs comment was also made on the theory of burn in thread. I asked you there to show any offensive comment I have made and there was no response. So I ask again. Bear in mind on that thread you made such an offensive comment it was removed by the moderators.
 
I agree that there is reputable opinion on both sides of the debate. Based on those reputable opinions, I have moved from the pro to the anti side.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

I have not see any anti-cable argument against your comment on cable length.

 
Whenever anti-cablers say there is no difference between cables, they are saying exactly that. Has it ever occurred to them to look at the variety in gauge aind length of different stock cables?
 
Quote:

Anti-cables are also open to other evidence as well as DBT, such as comparing a signal going in and out of a cable to see if there is a difference.
 

 
Have they done so? If they have, they would know there is a measurable and certainly audible difference if the cables are inadequate enough in gauge or length, and in some applications, when improperly shielded and in certain environments. To me, if an anti-cabler is going to say, for example, headphone cable upgrades make no difference, then I expect him to understand what sort of cables are used in stock headphones. There is a huge variety.
 
Quote:

Your last sentence is true for the pro-cable side as well.

 
Pro-cablers are angry at being provoked.