Is equalizing for listening with headphones a horrible idea?

[Sepidoel]

It's just an analogue for danimeisteR, it surely is to far-stretched for expert. But I just want to point out while having the hardware system tuned up well is the best quality solution it can also be very expensive and time-consuming. Many people compromise and equalizing in my opinion is not a bad idea if done well.

I'm not an expert (I don't even understand the term RTA, thanks for ProtegeManiac's input I'd like to learn those), just an enthusiast with little money in pocket. In my budget car audio system (the old one broke... ) at first I wanted to have a good Mid and High and adjusting the equalizer, but find the low bass was lacking too much (equalizing just made the bass very harsh), it annoyed me very often. So I changed my mind and had my time tuning it for the low bass, equalized the mid and high, and found it to be much easier to listen than before - the high can be slightly harsh but everything is focused well. Thus I made my conclusion.

 

[Redcarmoose]

For some of us it's more serious than a hobby to just throw money at. We want to spend the money for seriously good sound and rather than make a hobby out of this stuff it's a matter of just getting a decent return and enjoying music. There are differences between DACs and amps without question, but by comparison there's an enormous bang for the buck with Sonarworks, let alone free equivalent equalization. Given how questionably even very expensive headphones can sound ($1k+) and how much money can be thrown in the pursuit of getting proper sound out of these headphones, this in my mind is the most serious matter I've encountered on this forum. The fact it's so inconspicuous is a big deal. You should not be using DACs and amps to EQ, let alone cables. First you need to be using something like Sonarworks or applying proper equalization (i.e. actually flatening the frequency response of headphones), then the other stuff becomes more grounded. The key premise and contention of Sonarworks is that even expensive headphones are poorly tuned, and after hearing the change their app made, especially in contrast to the changes I've experienced with different DACs and amps, as well as a $300 cable, it appears they are right.

This isn't about R/D, it's about $80 being mind-blowing after you've already spent $1800 without getting your mind blown. This forum encourages the latter while seemingly being mostly ignorant of the former, and that's a huge issue. Awful. Come off looking as worse than a noob suggesting big purchases for "play" and just to demonstrate equipment makes a difference too. We're talking about significant money here.

Again the software sounds nice but everyone does not use computers as a source. One of the key issues here that has not been braught up is knowing your own personal sound preferences.

You can say oh, the software brings headphone a to a flat line responce or does this or that but in reality the listener has maybe no real goal in mind.

If you have been here for 12 years like myself you start to read about a persons learning curve. And because people don’t know what they don’t know new members should really expose themselves to the different sound signatures as what choices there are at a meet.


I’m not saying the software couldn’t do this to a point, but I have no experience with the program. Also as mentioned, I don’t believe you can make Apple earbuds sound like HD800s with software.


That said it’s more than flat frequency responce which makes people happy. It’s more about character and a non-flat frequency responce. A person is not going to know if they are a treble head or a bass head or a narrow sound stage head or a wide soundstage head.

 

[rutter]

Have you heard a headphone equalized to flat response? How many excuses are you going to come up with? Perhaps you should put those aside and rather than be useless or encourage new members to spend a lot of potentially unnecessary money you advise them to get their headphones properly equalized first. At least if it's possible they mind spending the money. It's not about making Apple earbuds sound like an HD800S, it's about a relatively inexpensive or free action having a disproportionately positive effect in comparison to spending hundreds more on DACs, amps, and let alone cables to try to get your headphone to sound like your faint idea of how it should sound for the money you spent on it. This goes to the heart of the subject matter of this forum. It's not character I heard before my LCD-X was equalized, it's mediocrity at best and it was wrong both based on impression and technicality. You can apply character after equalization. I've had a Hifiman Edition X v2 for a month and a half, tried an Aeon Flow Open at home as well, auditioned a Focal Clear and listened to the other two Focals (although in fairness I don't think equalization would help these three in my eyes), heard an LCD-3 and LCD-4, and I've always had the nagging feeling these headphones don't sound like they cost. Now I think I'm rather ok with the LCD-X, at a much lower cost. That's huge. The difference Sonarworks made is serious, and others who have tried it tend to agree. I think it's the responsibility of this forum to properly integrate information like this and adjust the advice it gives to new members.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Points well taken, and I agree to a level. But with the Focal line, why would you think that simple EQ or other preprocessing still would not bring them around? What are they doing beyond help?

Flat responce is actually a debateable subject in itself, many argue what flat is. But you have to realize your talking with someone who does not believe in EQ. I think it creates artifacts in other areas of the response. If your wondering if I have heard what some call a flat response in headphones yes. The Sony R-10, various Stax systems. I know what flat is. I’m not suggesting anyone spend any money. I’m suggesting they go to a headphone meet and learn what style of character responce they relate to. Most of this hobby is knowing yourself and what you may like. After that a fairly great system is actually pretty low cost now days.

It’s simply expensive to go around and buy stuff you don’t really like....or don’t know you will not really like in the end.

Somehow you think everyone is needing a flat responce or an idea of a flat responce. I’m simply suggesting color character.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

It's just an analogue for danimeisteR, it surely is to far-stretched for expert. But I just want to point out while having the hardware system tuned up well is the best quality solution it can also be very expensive and time-consuming. Many people compromise and equalizing in my opinion is not a bad idea if done well.

I'm not an expert (I don't even understand the term RTA, thanks for ProtegeManiac's input I'd like to learn those), just an enthusiast with little money in pocket. In my budget car audio system (the old one broke... ) at first I wanted to have a good Mid and High and adjusting the equalizer, but find the low bass was lacking too much (equalizing just made the bass very harsh), it annoyed me very often. So I changed my mind and had my time tuning it for the low bass, equalized the mid and high, and found it to be much easier to listen than before - the high can be slightly harsh but everything is focused well. Thus I made my conclusion.

RTA - Real Time Analyzer. Used to be we'd use the same system used for professional HT installs, but then USB microphones happened and we were able to use just that and a laptop.

That's not the only similarity between HT and car audio though. The latter also uses multichannel DACs and amps, except it isn't for separate channels of playback, but to split the signal at the DSP chip to each tweeter, midwoofer, and the subwoofer (if not a midrange as well), which necessitates seaprate amplification channels even if the playback is 2channel. This allows the DSP to set a time delay that will sync each individual transducer's arrival at the driver's head, as well as setting a different gain level for each driver type (if not also per driver per side, instead of just Balance control that affects everything on each side), for example my tweeters are set to -4dB on the processor preamp and the knob on their amp channels isn't moved, since their sensitivity is waaaaaaaaaay higher than the midwoofer's (plus a +2dB to the subwoofer).

 

[rutter]

The sound is too strong for me in general. The nature or balance of it may be fine or not rather flagrantly wrong. Not sure equalization helps with this. As for artifacts, I have not heard any and the serious improvement has to be weighed against anything you might be hearing. I've seen this knock before and I really have not heard any deterioration of the sound, very much the opposite. This turned out to be a headphone fixer and saver.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Have you heard a headphone equalized to flat response? How many excuses are you going to come up with? Perhaps you should put those aside and rather than be useless or encourage new members to spend a lot of potentially unnecessary money you advise them to get their headphones properly equalized first. At least if it's possible they mind spending the money. It's not about making Apple earbuds sound like an HD800S, it's about a relatively inexpensive or free action having a disproportionately positive effect in comparison to spending hundreds more on DACs, amps, and let alone cables to try to get your headphone to sound like your faint idea of how it should sound for the money you spent on it. This goes to the heart of the subject matter of this forum. It's not character I heard before my LCD-X was equalized, it's mediocrity at best and it was wrong QUOTE="rutter, post: 14310551, member: 495061"]The sound is too strong for me in general. The nature or balance of it may be fine or not rather flagrantly wrong. Not sure equalization helps with this. As for artifacts, I have not heard any and the serious improvement has to be weighed against anything you might be hearing. I've seen this knock before and I really have not heard any deterioration of the sound, very much the opposite. This turned out to be a headphone fixer and saver.

I’ll try the program in fairness.

 

[rutter]

Unfortunately you'll need a supported headphone with it. One of its limitations. There are a whole bunch missing, but I didn't check Sony.

 

[TYATYA]

To the OP.

Your friend is not wrong but not correct. He just tell the theorical.

Signal process : yes, eq make distorsion and noise. How much it is depending on quality of device.
Ideal device will give +4dB @4500Hz Q=1.6 correctly, no noise, for example. But noise can be heard actually bcs of not ideal device.

Headphones respond : no, eq using didnt make a headphone to make noise unless it break up volume.
Headphone freq respond is mostly worst in audio path.

Correction for hp responding is more positive meaning than the megative - noise come from eq-ing in signal processing

I am not EQ lover or hater.
I accept hd800s w/o eq but when use laptop as a source, I use Jriver MC23 to do eq-ing, love the sound with eq.
I dont eq for kse1500 bcs to my ear it is a perfect responding in 40 - 7000hz, very flat. Over 7000 is still nice responding. I dont want to apply Eq for it.
Jriver media center is a good sw for eq. If setting a band with gain =0, or 0.1 then turn it on, nothing change in sound, no lose any detail.

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

I'm always amused by the logical fallacies people sometimes use when trying to justify their weird biases.
I mean, the logic behind " if you don't like headphone XYZ without EQ, then you just don't like headphone XYZ and you need to get a different set" makes as much sense as, "If the seating position and mirrors and steering wheel in your car don't suit you as it came from the factory, then that car just isn't right for you"
The enjoyment of music is so incredibly subjective, with a mind boggling number of possible variables that the idea that one could find a 'perfect headphone' is asinine.
If you have an adequate source in terms of the ability to power the headphones, but you aren't satisfied with the sound, the first thing I would suggest is adjusting the EQ. The second, and in my opinion the most overlooked thing to look into is the earpads. Pads can make a big difference in the tuning of headphones. Once you have headphones you like, and you have done simple EQing, the next thing to do is make sure the pads you are using provide the sound signature you prefer.
.... but of course there will always be some 'helpful' person to pop up and tell you it's stupid to put money into new pads, "they should come with the perfect sounding pads from the start! Why would you put $30 pads on a $50 headphone??" .....umm, because then they sound like $200 headphones?

 

[Cruelhand Luke]

Also....the idea that EQing is somehow messing with what the producer who made the recording had in mind is just dumb....I mean, when Da Vinci painted the Sistine Chapel there were no contact lenses and glasses weren't nearly as commonplace as they are today...so, I guess we all need to look at the art all squinty eyed and whatnot?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Unfortunately you'll need a supported headphone with it. One of its limitations. There are a whole bunch missing, but I didn't check Sony.

I do use really small amounts of EQ. Still I try to not EQ as much as I can and only use it with one IEM. Maybe with tone knobs it would be at 2-o’clock bass, 11-o’clock midrange and 11-o’clock treble with the Encore IEM. So using really small amounts is OK, but it still does not change basicly what the IEM is. It doesn’t come close to making it another IEM?

 

[ScareDe2]

Hi, guys:


I just registered to this forum to ask for advice from people who really know about this stuff, not just regular folks like me who have just their personal opinion about it.

So the thing is that last week I finally received a pair of Massdrop Hifiman HE4XX which I paired with the O2 headphone amp and my PC soundcard (Asus Xonar DX). I know, it's quite the humble setup

When I first started listening to the music I have loved all my life (Dire Straits, Smashing Pumpkins' Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness or Tiesto's In search of Sunrise 6, among others) I did not like the sound of the headphones (a bit too dark and opaque sound for my taste), so I decided to arrange some equalizing setups for these albums and I spent about 40 minutes doing it until I was really satisfied with the results and I was again enjoying my all-time favourites. The sound was now really good compared to my previous headphones: the detail was fantastic and the soundstage was quite enjoyable.

Since I did not know about equalizing I went to a gaming forum I’ve consulted for a long time to ask a moderator who is allegedly a good source for sound and PC hardware. As far as I know he has not had any sound technical education, but since everyone asked him about this stuff I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

So I asked him if he knew something (via link or similar) about how I should equalize for listening music with headphones and all I got for an answer was something like "Equalizing for headphones? Facepalm". I asked him to ellaborate on his answer and he told me that if I didn't like the Hifiman HE4XX right away with a flat EQ setting (i.e., by default), it means that I don't like the headphones and that I should sell them right away and get a new pair of headphones that I really like without the need to equalizing. He went on to tell me that by equalizing I was adding distortion, ruining the detail of the Hifiman and tainting the mix made by the sound engineer. He also said that if I was going to equalize, I could have gotten a pair of Takstar HI2050 for $45 on Aliexpress and gotten the same results.

After I got this answer I started doubting myself and used Google to search for some sort of answer and found basically two trends:

1. Not to equalize, because you ruin the mix made by the sound engineer.

2. To equalize, because your setup will never be the same as the one the engineer used and therefore you will never listen to the music he arranged the way he listened to it.


So I want to know (from someone who really knows about this stuff) if this is true, if equalizing is something so bad that it should not be done.

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness. Greatest double album in the history of alternative rock. You will have a hard time equalizing an headphone so it does it justice. Most, if not all headphones in their stock form are not tuned for this type of music. My recommendation is to get for free EqualizerApo. Then go on the discord channel discord.gg/yYFY2nC and use the command GETEQ:HE4XX,vmodam100 (or any other headphone you want) and copy paste the file in the config.txt of EqualizerApo. By doing so, you start experimenting new sound flavors. I have equalized my Oppo PM3 based on the VModa and keep crafting it. It is time consuming by rewarding. In the spoiler below you have the HE4xx EQ based on the VModa.

Spoiler

Channel: ALL
GraphicEQ: 10 -1.5; 11 -1.8000000000000007; 12 -2.1000000000000014; 13 -2.8000000000000007; 14 -3.3000000000000007; 15 -3.700000000000001; 16 -4.300000000000001; 17 -4.600000000000001; 18 -5.0; 19 -5.4; 20 -5.9; 21 -5.800000000000001; 22 -6.100000000000001; 23 -6.600000000000001; 24 -7.000000000000001; 25 -6.9; 26 -7.1000000000000005; 27 -7.200000000000001; 28 -7.500000000000001; 29 -7.700000000000001; 30 -7.6000000000000005; 31 -7.700000000000001; 32 -7.800000000000001; 33 -7.9; 34 -8.0; 35 -8.0; 36 -8.100000000000001; 37 -8.200000000000001; 38 -8.200000000000001; 39 -8.200000000000001; 40 -8.200000000000001; 41 -8.100000000000001; 42 -8.100000000000001; 43 -8.4; 44 -8.4; 45 -8.4; 46 -8.4; 47 -8.4; 48 -8.4; 49 -8.4; 50 -8.4; 51 -8.4; 52 -8.4; 53 -8.4; 54 -8.4; 55 -8.600000000000001; 56 -8.600000000000001; 57 -8.600000000000001; 58 -8.700000000000001; 59 -8.8; 60 -8.8; 61 -8.9; 62 -8.9; 63 -9.0; 64 -9.0; 65 -9.0; 66 -9.0; 67 -9.0; 68 -9.0; 69 -9.100000000000001; 70 -9.200000000000001; 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8419 -19.9; 8463 -19.200000000000003; 8507 -18.9; 8552 -18.7; 8596 -18.5; 8641 -18.3; 8686 -18.3; 8732 -18.3; 8778 -18.3; 8823 -18.6; 8870 -19.1; 8916 -19.4; 8962 -19.6; 9009 -19.8; 9056 -20.0; 9104 -20.3; 9151 -20.5; 9199 -20.700000000000003; 9247 -20.9; 9296 -21.0; 9344 -20.9; 9393 -20.9; 9442 -20.700000000000003; 9492 -20.6; 9541 -20.200000000000003; 9591 -19.4; 9641 -18.7; 9692 -18.0; 9742 -17.2; 9793 -16.5; 9844 -15.8; 9896 -14.8; 9948 -13.3; 10000 -11.9; 10052 -11.0; 10104 -10.3; 10157 -7.6000000000000005; 10210 -4.0; 10264 -2.5; 10317 -2.1000000000000014; 10371 -1.8000000000000007; 10425 -1.6000000000000014; 10480 -1.4000000000000004; 10535 -0.7000000000000011; 10590 0.0; 10645 -0.10000000000000142; 10701 -0.3000000000000007; 10757 -0.40000000000000036; 10813 -0.7000000000000011; 10869 -1.0; 10926 -0.9000000000000004; 10983 -1.0; 11041 -2.3000000000000007; 11098 -3.4000000000000004; 11156 -4.300000000000001; 11215 -5.700000000000001; 11273 -6.9; 11332 -7.9; 11392 -8.700000000000001; 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15494 -20.5; 15575 -21.5; 15657 -23.200000000000003; 15739 -24.4; 15821 -25.5; 15904 -25.5; 15987 -25.200000000000003; 16070 -25.200000000000003; 16154 -25.3; 16239 -25.3; 16324 -25.1; 16409 -24.5; 16495 -24.0; 16581 -23.700000000000003; 16668 -23.700000000000003; 16755 -23.6

And the graph of the HE4XX compared to the VModa

Spoiler

You can also use the Peace extention and watch this video tutorial by Metal571


But if you want to EQ your headphone to the Harman target, simply use the command GETEQ:HE4XX,harman and copy paste the file in the config.txt. The peace extention can still be a nice tool.

 

[danimeisteR]

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness. Greatest double album in the history of alternative rock.

I totally agree. I got this album when I was 19 years old as a "Christmas" present (it's actually on the 6th of January in Spain and it's called "Los Reyes Magos" (The Three Wise Men). I woke up at 2 am to open the presents and listened to this on my Sony discman all night long on repeat (until 9 am, I think). It's a work of art. I still listen to it every year. I'm glad to know that someone enjoyed it as much as me.
This week I am very busy, but I will check on your comment and the others' as soon as I have time to sit and learn this stuff.

Many thanks to you all for your answers.

 

[rutter]

I do use really small amounts of EQ. Still I try to not EQ as much as I can and only use it with one IEM. Maybe with tone knobs it would be at 2-o’clock bass, 11-o’clock midrange and 11-o’clock treble with the Encore IEM. So using really small amounts is OK, but it still does not change basicly what the IEM is. It doesn’t come close to making it another IEM?

One of the posters put it well previously. EQing does not actually mean dicking around making changes to the sound. Equalizing means flattening the frequency response of the headphone by cancelling out what is I presume deviation in the form of a curve.

This is the Sonarworks True-Fi app. The white line represents the deviation of an LCD-X. When enabled the app equalizes the headphone as indicated by the flat orange line. There's a reddit thread that describes how to try to do this yourself with a free program like EqualizerApo, not sure if I linked it in this thread and can do so upon request. You don't do this by messing around. A number of us who tried the Sonarworks app with our LCD-Xs were quite impressed with the difference this makes. I repeat, this is by far the best bang for the buck in improving the sound of a headphone, beating spending hundreds of dollars more even on DACs and amps, let alone cables. That has been my experience, and even if you get a great DAC and amp each worth over $1k I'm not sure you'd correct or compensate for the crap of an unequalized headphone. I don't have the slightest clue why headphones are released like this, just speaking from my experience.

ScareDe2 is technically not equalizing, by the way. He's experimenting. That just feeds into misconceptions I'd imagine. Equalizing is not about turning the sound into something else, it's about correcting it. That's my understanding of what's happening here anyway.