[danimeisteR]

Hi, guys:


I just registered to this forum to ask for advice from people who really know about this stuff, not just regular folks like me who have just their personal opinion about it.

So the thing is that last week I finally received a pair of Massdrop Hifiman HE4XX which I paired with the O2 headphone amp and my PC soundcard (Asus Xonar DX). I know, it's quite the humble setup

When I first started listening to the music I have loved all my life (Dire Straits, Smashing Pumpkins' Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness or Tiesto's In search of Sunrise 6, among others) I did not like the sound of the headphones (a bit too dark and opaque sound for my taste), so I decided to arrange some equalizing setups for these albums and I spent about 40 minutes doing it until I was really satisfied with the results and I was again enjoying my all-time favourites. The sound was now really good compared to my previous headphones: the detail was fantastic and the soundstage was quite enjoyable.

Since I did not know about equalizing I went to a gaming forum I’ve consulted for a long time to ask a moderator who is allegedly a good source for sound and PC hardware. As far as I know he has not had any sound technical education, but since everyone asked him about this stuff I assumed he knew what he was talking about.

So I asked him if he knew something (via link or similar) about how I should equalize for listening music with headphones and all I got for an answer was something like "Equalizing for headphones? Facepalm". I asked him to ellaborate on his answer and he told me that if I didn't like the Hifiman HE4XX right away with a flat EQ setting (i.e., by default), it means that I don't like the headphones and that I should sell them right away and get a new pair of headphones that I really like without the need to equalizing. He went on to tell me that by equalizing I was adding distortion, ruining the detail of the Hifiman and tainting the mix made by the sound engineer. He also said that if I was going to equalize, I could have gotten a pair of Takstar HI2050 for $45 on Aliexpress and gotten the same results.

After I got this answer I started doubting myself and used Google to search for some sort of answer and found basically two trends:

1. Not to equalize, because you ruin the mix made by the sound engineer.

2. To equalize, because your setup will never be the same as the one the engineer used and therefore you will never listen to the music he arranged the way he listened to it.


So I want to know (from someone who really knows about this stuff) if this is true, if equalizing is something so bad that it should not be done.

 

[rutter]

I'm just trying out Sonarworks, which appears to be nothing more than equalizing. Apparently headphones tend to sound kind of like crap without it. I'm looking into perhaps following this guide https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/3h2f57/how_to_equalize_your_headphones_on_windows/ to see if I can't replicate the effect for free. I would actually strongly recommend trying equalization before throwing hundreds and even thousands of dollars into more expensive dacs, amps, cables, and even additional headphones.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Don't be deterred. The numbskulls who don't use equalizer apps tend to be the same idiots who would use cables to do the same thing instead of cables that just transmit the signal without modifying it (which also doesn't even require any fancy and expensive BS), if not also use warmifying boombasticators instead of amplifiers, which, by the very name, should just amplify the signal without adding distortion or noise. And making it more boombastic by warming up the sound is distortion. You might as well apply a targeted EQ profile to actually hit the problematic frequencies, more so when totally flat response doesn't exist yet.

By its very name, "equalize" means to "make frequenciy response equal." First you need to know the response of your headphone to know where it has excessive response or where it is very weak. Second step is to target those frequencies, provided you now understand how equalizer settings work, like Q factor, which affects the width of the effect. Note that cuts are better than boosts since the latter is forcing the driver to do more of something that it can't, so rely more on trimming where it's too strong and minimize auditory masking than relying more on boosting where it's weak and get more driver distortion (excessive bass boost can also damage the drivers).

Based on the measurements below, I'd go with these settings:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MassdropHiFiMANHE4XX.pdf

Center frequency 150hz, Low Shelf filter, Q factor 1.0, Gain +1.0
Center frequency 1800hz, Peak EQ, Q factor 1.0, Gain +3dB
Center frequency 7000hz, Peak EQ, Q factor 1.0, Gain -4dB

 

[MindsMirror]

When I first started listening to the music I have loved all my life (Dire Straits, Smashing Pumpkins' Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness or Tiesto's In search of Sunrise 6, among others) I did not like the sound of the headphones (a bit too dark and opaque sound for my taste), so I decided to arrange some equalizing setups for these albums and I spent about 40 minutes doing it until I was really satisfied with the results and I was again enjoying my all-time favourites. The sound was now really good compared to my previous headphones: the detail was fantastic and the soundstage was quite enjoyable.

This should answer your own question. If you want to enjoy listening to music, and equalizing make it more enjoyable to you, then you should use it.

In an ideal world, all music is mixed and mastered perfectly to sound exactly how you like it, and your headphones have a flat sound signature to accurately represent that perfect master, and also are comfortable with all the features you want at an affordable price. In the real world, none of those things are true. I do agree that you should try to find headphones with a sound signature as close to your preference as possible, but ultimately there are deficiencies and compromises somewhere. It's impossible to find a headphone which has the perfect frequency response for your preference for all recordings. There will always be some aspect which is not perfect, which can be improved by EQ.

Technically speaking, altering the frequency response is a type of distortion, since it deviates from the original signal. Unlike some types of distortion (such as aliasing, or IMD, THD, etc.), frequency response distortion is reversible. You apply a 10dB peak filter and then a -10dB peak filter with the rest of the parameters the same, you will get back to the original signal. Since your headphones won't have a perfectly flat (or perfectly preferable) frequency response, using EQ can actually remove frequency response distortion by getting closer to that flat or preferred response.

 

[danimeisteR]

Based on the measurements below, I'd go with these settings:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MassdropHiFiMANHE4XX.pdf

Center frequency 150hz, Low Shelf filter, Q factor 1.0, Gain +1.0
Center frequency 1800hz, Peak EQ, Q factor 1.0, Gain +3dB
Center frequency 7000hz, Peak EQ, Q factor 1.0, Gain -4dB

Many thanks, ProtegeManiac. What do you use to apply those settings? (It sounds like you are using something more sophisticated than my soundcard panel interface (https://i.gyazo.com/73fd2b1fb46e440e6a9d0fc1ea81497e.png) I want to apply those settings you recommended and then paste here a screen capture so you can confirm that I did it right.

 

[danimeisteR]

This should answer your own question. If you want to enjoy listening to music, and equalizing make it more enjoyable to you, then you should use it.

Of course, I was even thinking of adding at the end of the thread something like "I have already made up my mind about using equalizer, but I just need to know the facts about equalizing". I am not going to go on a blind search for headphones all my life. I will enjoy these for a couple of years and then I will see if I feel like trying something different/more expensive. But for now I am very happy with these.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Many thanks, ProtegeManiac. What do you use to apply those settings? (It sounds like you are using something more sophisticated than my soundcard panel interface (https://i.gyazo.com/73fd2b1fb46e440e6a9d0fc1ea81497e.png) I want to apply those settings you recommended and then paste here a screen capture so you can confirm that I did it right.

I use Neutron Music Player for my Galaxy Note 4 feeding the DAC-HPamp driving my HD600 and Equalizer APO on Windows to fix my tiny speakers' mid-treble response.

I can't open EQ APO right now as I'm working on something and it wants to reboot but the interface is about as simple as it gets. If you only run the graphic EQ you can use the full custom mode and input the frequencies below.

20hz, +2dB
35hz, +2dB
60hz, +2dB
90hz, +2dB
120hz, +2dB
1800hz, +3dB
2500hz, +3dB
7000hz, -4dB
8000hz, -4dB
9000hz, -4dB
10000hz, -4dB

 

[rutter]

Can someone vouch for this link that it covers about all you need to do?

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/3h2f57/how_to_equalize_your_headphones_on_windows/

 

[danimeisteR]

I can't open EQ APO right now as I'm working on something and it wants to reboot but the interface is about as simple as it gets. If you only run the graphic EQ you can use the full custom mode and input the frequencies below.

Many thanks, truly. You are of great help. Have a nice day

 

[Redcarmoose]

There is nothing wrong with using EQ, but many including myself feel it is best used with moderation.

Other alternatives can also be used.


A) Many feel cables can be used as an EQ
B) Different equipment sounds different at times, so mixing and matching equipment can be like EQ.
C) At times headphones and/or complete systems can have music genre matching not needing EQ.

Also finally EQ can be used as a crutch to make it appear easier when switching from a listeners normal sound signature. An example would be they are used to a very bass heavy system and could after a few days get used to a more flat system with no EQ. But because they use EQ to get another system to sound what they think is correct, they simply don’t get used to the new system naturally.

I use as little as possible.

 

[rutter]

In my experience paying for cables in comparison to EQ is asinine. Even dacs and amps to get a better sound without first trying EQ might be a terrible idea. By far the biggest positive difference I've gotten is with Sonarworks, which goes for $80 and may be replicable for free. I've spent hundreds of dollars more trying to get improvement through cables, dacs, and amps with my headphones still sounding somewhat crappy and have tried other equipment at a shop as well. Sonarworks basically decrappified the LCD-X I'm trying, and I have tried a bunch of other headphones as well. It's shameful in my opinion that apparently manufacturers don't tune their headphones properly, and rather than being complete idiots spending so much money on dacs and amps, let alone cables to get satisfactory sound from their expensive headphones people should be advised to try EQ first, then consider equipment upgrades. In my opinion this is scandalous and reflects terribly on this community as well. Seems like a lot of you are here to throw money around rather than be well informed.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Cables are totally controversial and have been questioned from the first days of their introduction as a possible way to get improvement. Obviously they would be the last thing someone would try at when finalizing their system. It’s all about having fun. This is a rewarding hobby, yep......it’s just a hobby to spend money on and explore after the bills are all paid.

Probably using new equipment purchases like amps or DACs is also and end of the road way of looking for EQ. But only the very few so called audiophile nihilists feel all DACs and amps sound the same.

So it’s an interesting question where you have a small group here which can’t hear the difference between a $400 amp and a $2000 amp. Same group feels there is no difference between a $90 DAC and a $2000 DAC. But keeping things grounded here, most believe there is a difference thus because that difference can at times change tone, DACs and amps can be used for EQ. Though again it’s an extreme level. But what I’m emphasizing is to simply play. The most fun we have at the few meets I’ve been to has been mixing and matching. And it’s a suggestion for noobs because it allows them to realize that equipment does change a tone without the use of software or EQ.

I don’t use a computer so the software you speak of would not work.

As far as failed headphone manufacturers.......it’s true there could be simply more R/D before headphones are released? But I see it different, as buying headphones starting in 1976 I’ve seen more changes and more choices today. Also the mid-fi experience is now what summit-fi was a couple years ago. What you can do with $1000 dollars today and s simply mind blowing as far as audio quality. We have never had it so good. IMO


But there is still a diehard old group that feel you can’t change a $60 pair of Koss Portapros into a pair of HD800s with EQ. You can’t really make these headphones something they are not.

 

[rutter]

For some of us it's more serious than a hobby to just throw money at. We want to spend the money for seriously good sound and rather than make a hobby out of this stuff it's a matter of just getting a decent return and enjoying music. There are differences between DACs and amps without question, but by comparison there's an enormous bang for the buck with Sonarworks, let alone free equivalent equalization. Given how questionably even very expensive headphones can sound ($1k+) and how much money can be thrown in the pursuit of getting proper sound out of these headphones, this in my mind is the most serious matter I've encountered on this forum. The fact it's so inconspicuous is a big deal. You should not be using DACs and amps to EQ, let alone cables. First you need to be using something like Sonarworks or applying proper equalization (i.e. actually flatening the frequency response of headphones), then the other stuff becomes more grounded. The key premise and contention of Sonarworks is that even expensive headphones are poorly tuned, and after hearing the change their app made, especially in contrast to the changes I've experienced with different DACs and amps, as well as a $300 cable, it appears they are right.

This isn't about R/D, it's about $80 being mind-blowing after you've already spent $1800 without getting your mind blown. This forum encourages the latter while seemingly being mostly ignorant of the former, and that's a huge issue. Awful. Come off looking as worse than a noob suggesting big purchases for "play" and just to demonstrate equipment makes a difference too. We're talking about significant money here.

 

[Sepidoel]

I had a similar situation with you, danimeisteR, when I tried to set my car amps (self-taught trial error). The similarity is by comparing the effect on changing car amp's frequency response and head-unit's equalizer, so I conclude that having the right frequency response produces much better sound than having the right equalizer but take much more effort. Meaning I think in your case the answer is while yes it's better to have a good headphone that suites you well, but I hardly think changing equalizer is a bad thing - it's a very easy, cheap, and quick solution. If you like it just do it. So personally I don't think it deserves a facepalm reaction for many people.


PS. Thanks a lot to ProtegeManiac, I found my headphone measurement.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/oppo-pm-3-competent-comfortable-mobile-headphone-measurements

Don't be deterred. The numbskulls who don't use equalizer apps tend to be the same idiots who would use cables to do the same thing instead of cables that just transmit the signal without modifying it (which also doesn't even require any fancy and expensive BS), if not also use warmifying boombasticators instead of amplifiers, which, by the very name, should just amplify the signal without adding distortion or noise. And making it more boombastic by warming up the sound is distortion. You might as well apply a targeted EQ profile to actually hit the problematic frequencies, more so when totally flat response doesn't exist yet.

By its very name, "equalize" means to "make frequenciy response equal." First you need to know the response of your headphone to know where it has excessive response or where it is very weak. Second step is to target those frequencies, provided you now understand how equalizer settings work, like Q factor, which affects the width of the effect. Note that cuts are better than boosts since the latter is forcing the driver to do more of something that it can't, so rely more on trimming where it's too strong and minimize auditory masking than relying more on boosting where it's weak and get more driver distortion (excessive bass boost can also damage the drivers).

Based on the measurements below, I'd go with these settings:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MassdropHiFiMANHE4XX.pdf

Center frequency 150hz, Low Shelf filter, Q factor 1.0, Gain +1.0
Center frequency 1800hz, Peak EQ, Q factor 1.0, Gain +3dB
Center frequency 7000hz, Peak EQ, Q factor 1.0, Gain -4dB

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I had a similar situation with you, danimeisteR, when I tried to set my car amps (self-taught trial error). The similarity is by comparing the effect on changing car amp's frequency response and head-unit's equalizer, so I conclude that having the right frequency response produces much better sound than having the right equalizer but take much more effort. Meaning I think in your case the answer is while yes it's better to have a good headphone that suites you well, but I hardly think changing equalizer is a bad thing - it's a very easy, cheap, and quick solution. If you like it just do it. So personally I don't think it deserves a facepalm reaction for many people.

In cars there's really no substitute for EQ along with other DSP tricks. For one, very few people have a Maclaren F1, and nobody at home, even with a his and hers seating arrangement, sits closer to one side with the tweeters around half a meter away from the midwoofer. You have to install everything first to achieve as good imaging as you can without DSP, then set the time alignment corrections to favor the driver's seat, that way the sound from the driver side tweeter, driver side midwoofer, passenger side tweeter, and passenger side midwoofer all arrive in sync with the subwoofer and each other. After that you run an RTA to check for any big problems in the frequency response, with the mic where the driver's head would be. With newer self-tuning processors though this step would be the first, since that's how you set time alignment there (unlike inputting the microsecond delays or the distance as with older processors and head units), then it runs a flattening EQ, then you just tweak that later (additional note: when the auto set up sounds bad it has a lot less to do with how flat sound sounds bad, but because there was some extraneous noise that got in the way while the autotuning was going on, like some idiot I heard about who kept trying this while parked on a busy street, then lambasted the Alpine processor and "flat tuning" as "unnatural").