[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodbac Sorry about using the incorrect cold-temperature example, Spad- old misconceptions die hard. I misspoke. You are incorrect, however, that I'm misinformed about such things.

Sorry, but since you were so completely confused about how temperature affects Li-Ion battery life, I just naturally assumed you to be misinformed. Maybe I was fooled by the duck-walk.

If the links I've already posted don't satisfy perhaps you should try Google. I often start there.

I can appreciate that you " . . . came here specifically to discuss and learn about trivial sht like this." If you stick around there is always a chance you'll find a more patient teacher.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by carlin I agree with you man, plus this guy thinks that Apple and crazy eyes jobs can do no wrong. 8 hours is not enough battery life...plain and simple...they need to fix it, and its a big pain in the ass. As much as I love macs, they do have faults, and unlike some of these mac zealots, i am not arrogant enough to deny them...

Not enough for whom? It's enough for me and for many other owners here. Personally, the battery life isn't even a consideration and wouldn't be if the competition offered a hundred hours.

All this whining about the iPod's cost and battery life really gets old. If you want more time, why not just buy something else? If you don't think it's worth the price--please--just buy a cheaper alternative.

These things are a bit like watches. They come in a growing variety of styles and prices. Choosing one is an individual decision, and there is no need to justify that choice to anyone else.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

If the links I've already posted don't satisfy perhaps you should try Google. I often start there.

Um, done. Did you want to back up your assertion now?

Quote:

It's enough for me and for many other owners here. Personally, the battery life isn't even a consideration and wouldn't be if the competition offered a hundred hours.

And not to take this to nauseum, but do you realize how bizarre this sounds? Would you also accept driving a car that you had to refuel every night on the way home from work?

 

[EyEPoD]

yes, lets please drop the ongoing pointless debate.

I definately agree with you Spad, well on everything except that watch comparison... most watches have about the same battery life

 

[lindrone]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodbac Would you also accept driving a car that you had to refuel every night on the way home from work?

You know, some of the tech workers in the Bay Area almost had to do that during the whole dotcom boom... and the only place where you can find housing is 200 miles drive a day from work (to and fro).... Shocking, isn't it?

Anyway, that's off-topic, just thought I throw in a little interesting anecdote

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodbac Um, done. Did you want to back up your assertion now?

Man, you're like a dog with a bone! Just follow the links. There is nothing controversial in what I've said. This information is only new to you, and I'm not about to do your leg work.

Quote:

And not to take this to nauseum, but do you realize how bizarre this sounds? Would you also accept driving a car that you had to refuel every night on the way home from work?

Now I'm beginning to understand. You're confusing iPods with automobiles. How bizarre is it to compare a vehicle to an mp3 player?

Seriously, do you really know how simple it is to charge an iPod? You simply drop it into the dock or plug it into a USB port or a wall socket. The process takes roughly two seconds. No jumper cables required. No, honest.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by EyEPoD yes, lets please drop the ongoing pointless debate. I definately agree with you Spad, well on everything except that watch comparison... most watches have about the same battery life

Okay, okay . . . so let's compare iPods and airplanes. Would you buy an airplane if the landing gear fell off after eight hours? That could be reallllly dangerous. Well, just suppose your mp3 player stops after eight hours, say right in the middle of your favorite Wayne Newton number? Startin' to make sense now, uh?

One breaks your butt, and the other breaks your heart.

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Now I'm beginning to understand. You're confusing iPods with automobiles. How bizarre is it to compare a vehicle to an mp3 player?

Let's see... two things we all use on an everyday basis that require attention at regular intervals for worry-free operation... Cars and MP3 players? Check. Airplanes and MP3 players? Um, no. Duh.

Analogies are confusing? Two items only need share certain key characteristics to make a valid analogy, but I'm sure you already knew that </Ace Ventura>, so I'll assume I don't need to explain further.

Ok, now I'm getting bugged. For the last time... I'VE DUG DEEP ABOUT LI-ION BATTERY TECHNOLOGY. NOTHING I'VE FOUND BACKS UP ANYTHING THAT CAN REMOTELY BE CONSTRUED AS AGE BEING THE PRIMARY FACTOR IN DETERMINING THEIR LIFE EXPECTANCY.

ALL articles mention charge/discharge as the first factor ("depends heavily", etc) when discussing factors that affect the life of Li-Ion batteries, or only mention life expectancy in terms of "X number of charges" or "Li-Ion batteries have a life expectancy of 500 charge and discharge cycles".

BatteryUniversity discusses age alone, but this is in the context that it's always overlooked (which may very well be the case).

So, again, if you have some studies that show age vs charge cycles as affecting the life expectancy of Li-Ion batteries more, please link them. Otherwise, stop tossing around accusation that I'm not doing my footwork. I most certainly have done so, and nothing is helping your argument for the effort*.

*Please note that this does nothing to prove one side right or wrong- only that there does not appear to be a preponderance of evidence for the assertion, as is claimed.

 

[Tim D]

Age is a big factor as Li-Ion batteries internal resistance grows over time, i.e. it oxidizes.

Here is a car analogy...you don't have to be driving a car for it to eventually rust.

The funniest thing about this debate is that age is a variable in the equation of life expectancy of so many things. Even the life expectancy of...lifeforms. The life expectancy of an 80 year old person is going to be less than a newborn. Another interesting note...studies show that the aging process for people points to oxidants as well...

Shouldn't really be questioning if aging is a factor of life expectancy as opposed to questioning what is the cause of aging.

 

[rodbac]

Agreed*.

The question, however, isn't whether it's a big factor, but whether it's the biggest factor, or maybe just which is bigger: Age or # of charges? It would be perfectly understandable if age was the biggest, because of course oxidation occurs no matter what's going on, but by the same token, running a charge through a material speeds up the process, too, and the evidence available to us (that I have had the patience to track down (only 4 pages deep in Google)), mentions this the vast majority of the time.

I only ask to be enlightened.

*Although, it might be more accurate to ask whether a car rusts more quickly sitting in your garage or driving on winter roads, right?

 

[Tim D]

Well then I am sure it isn't a question of what is the primary or biggest cause or not but performing some boring calculus to figure out the optimal usage over time to maximize life...

You can NOT charge/discharge a Li-ion battery at all, its primary life expectancy will be based 100% on natural aging. You can be seriously abusing Li-Ion battery 24/7 and doing faster than normal charge and deep discharge and have that be the "primary" factor in life expectancy.

However I do think given the nature of Li-Ion not liking deep discharges, combined with a quicker aging factor vs other batteries, the quick and easy answer for preferred usage seems to be frequent usage and recharge.

Hard to argue that leaving a battery around unused is the best usage of a battery when it has a pretty fast natural aging factor. Of course a car kept in a vacuum never to be used isn't going to age fast...but we are acknowledging that we are referring to things that are in frequent usage no(unless you have the luxary to buy cars just to keep in the garage to look at)?

What does the motto "life is too short" imply? Make best use of it with the time you got left.

Also Li-Ion batteries are often ideal on products that are to be very frequently used. That is why it is the perfect cell-phone battery, it is always being used. And if it is almost always being used, than charge/discharge cycles has a very direct correlation to age anyhow because it is also always being frequently charged/discharged.

But I agree li-ion batteries should have enough charge so that you aren't constantly finding yourself doing deep discharges.

Don't really see the point of this debate though. If you keep a battery around without ever using it, it will have a longer life than another battery that was actually used, I am very sure. The question is...which ended up doing more *work*?

 

[Spad]

I'm going to assume that you're being sincere here and not simply trying to be a dick, rodbac.

Apparently this statement by me is what has caused you so much consternation:

As usual, MacDEF is spot-on with his summation. And concerning the longer life of higher capacity Li-Ion batteries--it just ain't so. The primary factor in the life of these batteries is age. Their life span, if properly used, is about three years regardless of size.

I'll try to be a little clearer.

First, do you accept that the standard 300-500 charge cycles is based on an 80 percent discharge state? If not, please dig a little deeper because this is the defacto standard.

Do you agree that these batteries have a life span of two to three years? If not, read the links I've provided. In fact, this is the normal life expectancy.

Next, do you accept that most users with a knowledge of Li-Ion battery technology, or even those who just bothered to read Apple's information on the iPod know that shallow discharge cycles are best for these batteries?

When shallow charge cycles are employed--say on the order of 25 to 50 percent rather than the industry standard of 80 percent--1200 to 1500 such cycles are possible. As you can see, in most cases this is more than enough to extend past the battery's chronological life of two to three years.

I don't want to muddy the water by being anecdotal, but I've had a lot of experience with this stuff and I've yet to have a Li-Ion battery die before its time. And, because I use shallow cycles, this is after far, far more than the 300-500 cycle standard. If a few simple guidelines are followed, such as frequently topping them up and (particularly) avoiding hot environments such as summer car interiors, both the time and charge cycle numbers can be easily exceeded.

Oh, and the iPod/airplane thingy: That was a joke intended for EyEPoD. Hell, I don't even have any Wayne Newton stuff.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by carlin plus this guy thinks that Apple and crazy eyes jobs can do no wrong.

Suddenly carlin, who did the same thing in another thread as sygyzy is doing here (actually, carlin was a lot worse), jumps on the bandwagon and starts posting snide comments and insults.
You know, the bigger Head-Fi gets, the more people we get who simply don't seem to be able to have a discussion without taking cheap shots, making snide comments, etc. And then if you respond, they accuse you of being the jerk.

carlin, sygyzy: every one of my replies in this thread has attempted to address the issues being discussed. But because I took issue with assertions being made by sygyzy (even though I responded with facts and discussion), suddenly I'm a jerk with an agenda. It's threads like this that make me want to leave Head-Fi and spend my free time doing something other than dealing with jerks like you.


Quote:

unlike some of these mac zealots

Just because someone defends something that has to do with Apple, they're a zealot? I guess if you can't rebut something, just try to discredit it, right?

(By the way, unless you want your world view to be disrupted, don't read the post earlier in this thread where I criticized the iPod's much-too-sensitive buttons. Or the other posts on Head-Fi where I said the EQ sucks. Etc. After all, how could could I possibly criticize the iPod, since I'm just a blind zealot?)




For the rest of you reading this, sorry for the above. I'm just sick and tired of jerks turning things personal if you disagree with them or take issue with their unfounded statements.

In an effort to get back on topic, and to clarify, so that my position can't (again) be misrepresented: I've never said that battery life isn't, or shouldn't be, important to some people. Some people do need longer battery life. In fact, I've said many, many times that if long battery life is truly important to someone, they probably shouldn't get an iPod. My position has only been that for many people, battery life is overrated. Based on consumer survey data that I've seen, most people who use portable players don't really need, nor care about, "long" battery life. 8 hours or so is plenty. And I think that the fact that three of the top five MP3 players on the market are iPods supports that view -- if the battery issue was really that big of a deal to most people, the iPod wouldn't sell as well as it does.

If you disagree, fine. Just have the decency, as a few people in this thread have had, to discuss the issue civilly, rather than resorting to snide comments and insults. If such discourse is out of your reach, maybe you should find another forum.

 

[sygyzy]

MacDef - I replied to your extended PM but "unfortunately" your Inbox was full. I am sure you got the email. I tried pressing back to retrieve it, but it cleared out my reply. I don't feel like retyping it, nor do I remember it exactly so I won't try.

What I will say is this: Taking into consideration the advice of another member, I will try my best to steer clear of you. It's obvious that no matter what I say, no matter how I word it, no matter what facts or opinions I base it on, you are going to find fault with it. And just from your previous post, you have continued the name calling. Add "jerk" to the list now right? All the while, exonerating yourself by posting your template reply: "All my posts are factual. They are the word of God. They are all great" I can't, nor want to, keep going at it with you like this. I'd much rather spend my time having discussions with people about topics I am interested in. And asking for help (since I am new here) and heck, maybe even try to help if I can once in a while. I'll let you have the last word now....

 

[Lisa]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spad As usual, MacDEF is spot-on with his summation. And concerning the longer life of higher capacity Li-Ion batteries--it just ain't so. The primary factor in the life of these batteries is age. Their life span, if properly used, is about three years regardless of size.

So in conclusion:

When you use the iPods battery for more than 50% of it's charge per day (providing you are able and willing to charge everyday) you'd be better of getting a player with longer batterylife.
Because then it will be a deep discharge a day and your battery will die in less then 1 year to a couple of months over a year (300-500 days).

When you use it less than 50% of it's charge per day(providing you are able and willing to charge every day) it will make no difference because this is a shallow discharge and you'll have enough charge cycles to last you the 2-3 years the battery will give you tops no matter how well you treat it. (1200-1500 days)

When you charge twice a week or less anything is fine as long as you don't let it discharge over 80%.

When you hate to charge your player get the one with the longest batterylife.

It's adviseable to let your battery discharge completely every 30 charges.

If anyone disagrees with this please respond. If you don't then let the matter rest, we're done discussing it.
Agreed?!!