[sno1man]

It does seem that there is a desire for "enhancement" products here as well.

"Does your killer guitar solo end before it reaches its peak?"

"is your fortissimo more like pianissimo?"

try new longer lasting SUPERCHARGE

 

[Spad]

As usual, MacDEF is spot-on with his summation. And concerning the longer life of higher capacity Li-Ion batteries--it just ain't so. The primary factor in the life of these batteries is age. Their life span, if properly used, is about three years regardless of size.

 

[rodbac]

Why do you think you need more than a 4 gallon gas tank on your car? Most people don't drive more than 10 or 15 miles before they pass a gas station. You're overstating the need for 15-20 gallon gas tanks.

Disregarding the life expectancy of Li-Ion batteries (which is a big concession, since every discussion of battery tech I've seen rates them on "Number of charges", so it seems logical to discuss how often you have to charge it), how can you guys STAND to have to worry about charging your player so often?

Quote:

The primary factor in the life of these batteries is age.

Why wouldn't discussions of battery technology just say "It's going to die in X years" rather than "You should expect 300-500 full charges before capacity decreases X%" if this was the case? Serious question- not trying to start an argument.

 

[sno1man]

I made jokes earlier but these are some serious issues and speaking as an engineer

The problem unfortunately is that i think most people are looking for one answer when the truth is that most questions have a "well it depends" clause.

For example on my third gen 20 gb I get different total battery life depending on how I use it.

Letting it run continously playing albums at a time and stationary, I get right at 5.5 hours. If i select random play but leave everything else the same 4.5 hours

If i play it for an two hours a day non continuously (half hour chunks) I can get almost 7 hours.

If I'm travlling with it in my car all day long. I get about 4 hours total use per charge.

So lots of variables including volume, temperature, motion (all greater in the car) albums versus songs,continous versus intermittent.

All these things also play in to the overall life of the batteries as well. Part of the problem is that with new tech such as Li-ion is that they really are guessing as to how long they will last. Now as they get more experience they can start giving better answers but even then it changes since as they discover failure points, they modify the design to reduce them. So the Li-ion battery you get now is probably quite different from the ones two years ago.

A good example is LCD. There was a big uproar when they were used in the first pro cameras including the Nikon F3. Nikon's answer to how long it would last was at the time was about 6 years at which point it might becom hard to read. Well at the time LCDs had been in broad use about 6 years. They did discover that one thing that led to them fading was drving them at a higher contrast level than was required and by lowering that, they would last longer.

I have two F3 's that are ten and nine years old respectively. The nine year old f3 had a dimmer display when I bought it (and I complained about it at the time). But 9 years on the second F3 is much easier to read now compared to the 10 year old

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodbac Why wouldn't discussions of battery technology just say "It's going to die in X years" rather than "You should expect 300-500 full charges before capacity decreases X%" if this was the case? Serious question- not trying to start an argument.

Perhaps you'll find the following from batteryuniversity.com more convincing than the posts I've been making here for the last year or so:

Battery wear-down on lithium-based batteries is caused by two activities: actual usage or cycling, and aging. The wear-down effects by usage and aging apply to all batteries but this is more pronounced on lithium-based systems.

Aging of lithium-ion is an issue that is often ignored. lithium-based batteries have a lifetime of 2-3 years. The clock starts ticking as soon as the battery comes off the manufacturing line. The capacity loss manifests itself in increased internal resistance caused by oxidation. Eventually, the cell resistance will reach a point where the pack can no longer deliver the stored energy, although the battery may still contain ample charge.

About the Author:

Isidor Buchmann is the founder and CEO of Cadex Electronics Inc., in Vancouver BC. Award winning author of many articles and books on batteries, Mr. Buchmann has delivered technical papers around the world.

Some here may continue to prefer the anecdotal evidence presented on Head-Fi and other user-oriented venues.

Others will continue to believe that the Mini is "about" the size of the standard iPod, despite MacDEF's demonstration that it is almost half its size.

Personally, I'm fine with that.

 

[Theresamarie1]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF Same design issue as the regular iPod: size. Rio Nitrus is 4.32 cubic inches, iPod mini is 3.6 cubic inches. That's .72 cubic inches. That's a lot of battery. (Although I think they should have made it even .1 inch thicker, just to get more battery life. I don't care about 8 hours, but a lot of people seem to, even if they never actually need it.)

I would agree, a 0.1 inch thickness tradeoff would have been good for battery life (if things could be arranged that way). Battery life was one of the major detractors incenting me to turn in my ipod for the ihp-120. That and directory structure.

Besides all of the recent hi-tech MP3 players, I am also the owner of numerous older ones including the Archos MM player. My experience with that player is that battery life started around 7-8 hours and after a year or so I was dealing with 5 or 6 hours, or less, and that's a big issue. When using it outside in the cold (skiing or hiking), that 5 or 6 even gets shorter. So battery life can be a big big issue for many of us. Plus, I think as others have said, the more you have to recharge it, the shorter it's lifetime in years as well.

Quote:

This is a bit of a myth. The battery life really doesn't get "shorter" until the end of the life cycle. And the lifespans on an 8-hour and a 15-hour battery are pretty much identical. Lithium ion batteries have lives based on charging cycles -- sure, some people may let their 15-hour battery run down longer before charging, but for most users, they'll charge when it's convenient, not when they get to a certain battery level, which means most users will charge them about at about the same frequency, which means the batteries will have about the same lifespan.

Not that I want a debate, but I'm not so sure about this assumption. I let mine run down substantially before recharging (1 bar). Especially since I've heard that it's the number of deep charge cycles (not top off) which determines the batteries life. If I run my player 6 hours a day, I'd be recharging an ipod every day and the iriver maybe every 2nd or 3rd day. Seems like this would make the lifetime of the ipod 1/2-1/3 that of the iriver (in days/weeks/years) and increases it's use cost.

Quote:

The advantage of a longer battery life really has nothing to do with the "lifespan" of the battery; it's all about the maximum length of time you can listen between charges.

I think they're both related. Longer listening time between charges will increase the batteries practical lifespan in days/weeks/years for the same listening time.

Quote:

"Majority opinion?" For those of us who have heard multiple players, the "majority" I've seen says that the iPod and the Zen are the best sounding. The Karma's sound wasn't that impressive, IMO. Whatever the case may be, it's certainly not the case that there's some "majority" out there preferring the sound of the Karma.

Another point where I don't think you'll ever get any concensus and people will always have different opinions or different loyalties. I've owned the ipod G3, archos FM, archos MM, RIO Karma and Iriver ihp-120.

The sound of the ipod and Karma and Archos are really pretty close to each other. IM"Very"HO I would give the edge to the Karma with the ipod and archos a very close second. Between the Karma and ihp-120 I would say it's a tossup. The Karma sounds better at lower bitrates (where some equalization might provide benefit) but I believe the ihp sounds best at higher bitrates with no equalization (alt preset extreme). Again, just my very humble opinion. The Karma can also drive 580s pretty well, when I don't think any other player can.

I love the slick ipod interfaces and would love to have one if they would provide longer battery life... Sound isn't that different where it's a deal breaker for me.

The Karma wheel broke on me after a short time and I couldn't get my rio contact to return my e-mails (even though I did beta testing for them) so back it went for a refund (CC) after 2 months.. There are benefits to buying from local box stores

.

Peace

 

[lindrone]

Well said, my man.. well said

Edit: this was in reply to Spad's post.. not Theresa's... so now it looks weird and out of place

 

[Theresamarie1]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spad As usual, MacDEF is spot-on with his summation. And concerning the longer life of higher capacity Li-Ion batteries--it just ain't so. The primary factor in the life of these batteries is age. Their life span, if properly used, is about three years regardless of size.

Strongly disagree, and so would some technical folks at the manufacturers. Lifetime has to do with number of deep charge cycles (versus top offs). Given the same usage per day, those that need to be recharged less often, will have longer lifespans in days, weeks, years.

 

[rodbac]

Spad-

First, don't take it personally.

Second, obviously aging would have some place in the equation. However, I believe the question is, then, is it the primary factor you claim. Even from your quote, it doesn't appear so. The main factor I see discussed is charge cycling.

So please don't start the strawman on me- I'm only trying to clear this up, if for noone else at least for myself. I'm not trying to continue to claim anything in the face of evidence to the contrary... the evidence you presented only claims age is an oft overlooked factor, which I already knew. If there's more that shows it's the primary factor, I'm happy to read it and concede.

 

[Theresamarie1]

Quote:

Originally posted by lindrone Well said, my man.. well said Edit: this was in reply to Spad's post.. not Theresa's... so now it looks weird and out of place

Not a problem.. I'm out of place at work as well.. I have 15 "guy engineers" working for me...

 

[Theresamarie1]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodbac Spad- First, don't take it personally. Second, obviously aging would have some place in the equation. However, I believe the question is, then, is it the primary factor you claim. Even from your quote, it doesn't appear so. The main factor I see discussed is charge cycling. So please don't start the strawman on me- I'm only trying to clear this up, if for noone else at least for myself. I'm not trying to continue to claim anything in the face of evidence to the contrary... the evidence you presented only claims age is an oft overlooked factor, which I already knew. If there's more that shows it's the primary factor, I'm happy to read it and concede.

Rodbac, good point on a secondary effect. For someone who never uses their product, a shelf life may become more of an issue but I'm not sure it's so big a factor for normal users.

 

[Spad]

The best, most definitive information on this subject is readily available and requires little effort to find. I'm not going to rehash my previous posts on the topic which, as many will agree, are already far too redundant.

Let me just briefly state, as I have before, that under the best of circumstances one can expect about three years from a Li-Ion battery, regardless of its size. This is true even when stored at the ideal 59 degrees Fahrenheit and 40 percent charged state.

It's possible to dramatically shorten the life of the battery, however. For example, in a 60 degree Centigrade environment, the capacity drops to about 60 percent in only three months.

Repeated deep cycle discharges (defined as 80 percent discharge) will also significantly shorten the battery's life.

I don't mean to belabor the point and I'll let it rest here. Trust me, I'll not take it personally nor be offended in the least if my statements are not accepted. After all, they represent the published expert opinions of researchers in the field, not my own.

 

[rodbac]

I know how irritating it can be to have discussed a subject to death, then have it pop up again.

However, while I'm no expert on the subject (as you may be), I have sought out "definitive information" on these, which is how I arrived at the conclusion that, while age, temperature, etc, all figure into the life of Li-Ion batteries (and others, too, presumably, although I've only paid attention to Li-Ion), the biggest factor, under normal operation, is charge cycling.

Of course if someone uses their device in sub-zero temps, it's life will drop dramatically, and of course if it's left on the shelf for a year, it will not make it 300-500 charges before losing capacity. This is not disputed.

However, age being the "primary factor" in determining a battery's lifespan isn't supported by any "definitive" source I could find, even your source, batteryuniversity (although it's been months since I was obsessed with this stuff, so I'll readily admit that better information could have been released since then).

 

[Lisa]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spad Repeated deep cycle discharges (defined as 80 percent discharge) will also significantly shorten the battery's life.

How much?

My mother always completely discharged her cell phone up until recently. It's 1 1/5 years old and the batterylife hasn't suffered noticeable at all.
What can she expect? Will a li-ion battery die on you out of the blue or will it get slowly worse like a NiMH?

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodbac I know how irritating it can be to have discussed a subject to death, then have it pop up again. However, while I'm no expert on the subject (as you may be), I have sought out "definitive information" on these, which is how I arrived at the conclusion that, while age, temperature, etc, all figure into the life of Li-Ion batteries (and others, too, presumably, although I've only paid attention to Li-Ion), the biggest factor, under normal operation, is charge cycling. Of course if someone uses their device in sub-zero temps, it's life will drop dramatically, and of course if it's left on the shelf for a year, it will not make it 300-500 charges before losing capacity. This is not disputed. However, age being the "primary factor" in determining a battery's lifespan isn't supported by any "definitive" source I could find, even your source, batteryuniversity (although it's been months since I was obsessed with this stuff, so I'll readily admit that better information could have been released since then).

With all respect, you really are misinformed on this subject, rodbac. After a year stored at 0 degrees Centigrade (at the ideal 40 percent charge state), a Li-Ion battery will still retain about 98 percent of its capacity. Even if stored at 100 percent charge state it will retain 94 percent at that temperature. After being brought back to normal operating temperature it will still be capable of 300-500 cycles. Keep in mind also that this 300-500 cycle figure is based on 80 percent discharge. Shallow cycles can significantly extend this.

It is heat that irreversably damages Li-Ion batteries. Cold simply temporarily reduces their output. For this reason devices should be kept as warm as possible when used outdoors in winter. By "warm as possible" I mean kept in an inside pocket, rather than on a belt, for example.

Unless mistreated, it is far more likely that our batteries will die of old age than excessive charge cycles.

Now let's see . . . Americans are killing and being killed in Iraq, my country is metamorphosing into something I hardly recognize, and we're entering the most important general election cycle in my lifetime.

Maybe there are more important issues.