[Punnisher]

The most important factors are build quality, length and price. Everything else shouldn't be a factor.

Try not to get one that's too long. It would be horribly inconvenient.

 

[Champ04]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilency /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am very skeptical of anything that can not be scientifically proven. If there is no double blinded, placebo controlled data to support these claims, then nobody should claim them as a fact.

Agreed to a point. Though I would also submit that people aught not be claiming as "fact" that there are not audible differences.

The argument over audible differences in wire still amazes me. And from both sides. One side has its quacks that make obviously dubious claims. The other has hard liners who refuse to keep an open mind.
Claiming that we already know everything there is to know about transmission line theory is amazingly short sighted. And that's not science, its ideology.
When literally hundreds and in some cases thousands of independent people come to the same or strickingly similar conclusions regarding the character of a particular design, the proper scientific response is to look for a means of explaining why. And NOT just claiming that we already know everything and therefor it all falls under the ruling of placebo. The sheer magnitude of people experiencing similar outcomes is not in itself proof but it is enough to compell reasonable research into the reasons.

Case in point. In the early days of digital, and for many years after, "scientist" scoffed at anyone who claimed to hear differences in cd players. As far as they were concerned "bits are bits" and it was impossible to hear any differences because there were none.
And then someone discovered this little thing called jitter. And now jitter is a recognized parameter of all things digital even well outside the realm of audio.

My intent is not to defend all esoteric cable manufacturers and also not to denigrate all those who fancy themselves scientifically grounded.
I am, afterall, a scientist who is well versed and practiced in all that DBT, scientific method, etc etc. (no, not in transmission line theory)
I, for one, refuse to pay premium prices for something that only looks better than its counterpart. But in my own carefully constructed tests I have gone from total skeptic to the realization that more REAL research needs to be conducted. Bottom line is that we dont have all the answers.
In fact, the smartest and brightest in my field lives by the philosophy that "the more you know the more you know you dont know."

I might add that its not just electrical engineering that needs to continue research but audiology as well as its existing research is not complete.
I read in another thread that visual memory is many times more reliable than audible memory. This is total BS. That statement makes far too many assumptions.
If you meet somebody new today you will likely remember their appearance for a reasonable length of time. And even a year later you may recognize them again. But if I ask you to describe fine details of their appearance you will not be able to. You will, however, be very likely to be able to describe in great detail someone who is close to you. Probably down to the tiniest freckle. Memory is directly related to familiarity.
Same goes with a piece of music. If you hear a piece of music only a handful of times you will only be able to discern differences in the most drasticly different systems. If, however, you have listened to the same piece hundreds and thousands of times you will be able to rapidly discern very fine differences in detail. And if you have had experience listening to this piece on systems that extract maximal detail your sense of "memory" will be even greater.
I submit that most people dont ever get to the "hundreds" of times listening to a piece of music. New music comes at us everyday and most of us happily move from one to the next.
But there are others who will listen to favorites for years. And for them, the existing audiology "data" does not apply. In others words, the human body is complex enough and adapts enough and in ways that have not yet been studied.

So anyone who says that only science can prove existence is being short sighted. And anyone who claims that even scientifically proven differences cannot be audible is also being short sighted. Like it or not, science is not perfect and it certainly is not complete. This is not welcome news to people like me who prefer to live by the numbers. But it is the truth.

Ok, so this turned out longer that expected. So let me finish with my reason for this diatribe in the first place..........
If you dont believe in cable differences, fine, live and let live. And stop being a kill joy to everyone else. You are trying to convert the inconvertable.
And if you think that all cables costing thousands of dollars are inherently better than stock then I hope you have the means to keep yourself happy because there are a significant number of people out there with the sole intent of seperating you from your money.

Finally, as to the OP. My $.02 is that any differences in cables, whether it is audible or mere construction quality, at this level of performance will be money much better spent on new material. In other words, forget looking for a better cable. And go invest in more music, preferably something you've never heard before. The new horizons you may experience are far more valuable.

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Champ04 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Agreed to a point. Though I would also submit that people aught not be claiming as "fact" that there are not audible differences. The argument over audible differences in wire still amazes me. And from both sides. One side has its quacks that make obviously dubious claims. The other has hard liners who refuse to keep an open mind. Claiming that we already know everything there is to know about transmission line theory is amazingly short sighted. And that's not science, its ideology. When literally hundreds and in some cases thousands of independent people come to the same or strickingly similar conclusions regarding the character of a particular design, the proper scientific response is to look for a means of explaining why. And NOT just claiming that we already know everything and therefor it all falls under the ruling of placebo. The sheer magnitude of people experiencing similar outcomes is not in itself proof but it is enough to compell reasonable research into the reasons. Case in point. In the early days of digital, and for many years after, "scientist" scoffed at anyone who claimed to hear differences in cd players. As far as they were concerned "bits are bits" and it was impossible to hear any differences because there were none. And then someone discovered this little thing called jitter. And now jitter is a recognized parameter of all things digital even well outside the realm of audio. My intent is not to defend all esoteric cable manufacturers and also not to denigrate all those who fancy themselves scientifically grounded. I am, afterall, a scientist who is well versed and practiced in all that DBT, scientific method, etc etc. (no, not in transmission line theory) I, for one, refuse to pay premium prices for something that only looks better than its counterpart. But in my own carefully constructed tests I have gone from total skeptic to the realization that more REAL research needs to be conducted. Bottom line is that we dont have all the answers. In fact, the smartest and brightest in my field lives by the philosophy that "the more you know the more you know you dont know." I might add that its not just electrical engineering that needs to continue research but audiology as well as its existing research is not complete. I read in another thread that visual memory is many times more reliable than audible memory. This is total BS. That statement makes far too many assumptions. If you meet somebody new today you will likely remember their appearance for a reasonable length of time. And even a year later you may recognize them again. But if I ask you to describe fine details of their appearance you will not be able to. You will, however, be very likely to be able to describe in great detail someone who is close to you. Probably down to the tiniest freckle. Memory is directly related to familiarity. Same goes with a piece of music. If you hear a piece of music only a handful of times you will only be able to discern differences in the most drasticly different systems. If, however, you have listened to the same piece hundreds and thousands of times you will be able to rapidly discern very fine differences in detail. And if you have had experience listening to this piece on systems that extract maximal detail your sense of "memory" will be even greater. I submit that most people dont ever get to the "hundreds" of times listening to a piece of music. New music comes at us everyday and most of us happily move from one to the next. But there are others who will listen to favorites for years. And for them, the existing audiology "data" does not apply. In others words, the human body is complex enough and adapts enough and in ways that have not yet been studied. So anyone who says that only science can prove existence is being short sighted. And anyone who claims that even scientifically proven differences cannot be audible is also being short sighted. Like it or not, science is not perfect and it certainly is not complete. This is not welcome news to people like me who prefer to live by the numbers. But it is the truth. Ok, so this turned out longer that expected. So let me finish with my reason for this diatribe in the first place.......... If you dont believe in cable differences, fine, live and let live. And stop being a kill joy to everyone else. You are trying to convert the inconvertable. And if you think that all cables costing thousands of dollars are inherently better than stock then I hope you have the means to keep yourself happy because there are a significant number of people out there with the sole intent of seperating you from your money. Finally, as to the OP. My $.02 is that any differences in cables, whether it is audible or mere construction quality, at this level of performance will be money much better spent on new material. In other words, forget looking for a better cable. And go invest in more music, preferably something you've never heard before. The new horizons you may experience are far more valuable.

I agree with you and is not my intent to criticize. If it came out like that I apologize. My knowledge of head-fi is limited and I am learning and willing to learn as I go.
There were however times when the majority thought the earth was flat and that the sun orbited around the earth. The beliefs of the majority does not make a truth.
It is true the science is incomplete and the truth as we know it changes every day. My concern is that in this day and age, (paraphrasing Carl Sagan), there is too much emphasis in unscientific "truths" and beliefs.
It is however OK in science to criticize and disagree and change our beliefs as evidence supports it. Again, don not take my comments as an insult. I hope we can agree to have an amicable discussion and continue to enjoy the music, which is the reason we both are part of this community.

 

[Drag0n]

Every amp, headphone, cable, player, sounds exactly the same because theyre all made to be neutral. :very evil:

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drag0n /img/forum/go_quote.gif Every amp, headphone, cable, player, sounds exactly the same because theyre all made to be neutral. :very evil:

That is the funniest thing I have heard the whole day!

 

[Ross]

Good post, Champ04. I suspect most of us here would have a strong tendency to prefer good science and engineering to irrationality and illogic. But so many of us have heard obvious and substantial - and consistent - differences between cables that cannot be explained by mere placebo effect. That is not to say that there is no scientific or rational explanation for these differences, it is just that it cannot necessarily be measured by traditional and simplistic measures of inductance, capacitance and resistance. The role of engineering in these circumstances is to find the way to measure what can be observed, not to deny what is observed because it doesn't fit the current measures.

 

[hatethatgiraffe]

Just paid over $100 for a qable silvercab pro LOD to go with my soon to arrive I-Qube and would rather have paid the little extra than run the risk of disappointment when i receive my new amp (currently just using a 3.5mm from the headphone out)
Don't know if the cable makes that much of a difference but do we really know anything for sure in this world??
Millions religiously worship to their respective gods in the hope that their belief will be rewarded in this life or the next(religion dependant belief)
I don't believe in God but i do believe in what I (think) can hear and for that reason I will continue to buy as close as i can afford to the best in much the same way that people worship God.

 

[thejoneser]

Not to cause trouble, but if all LODs sound the same, please explain this:

After playing competitive classical piano for 12 years, I was recorded (using very high-end equipment) playing one particular piece on my own Yamaha grand piano. The music was then ripped to my iPod (lossless) and played back through a portable headphone amp and AKG 701s. At the time I was using an expensive boutique LOD. I was never happy with the recording (and my equipment) because the recorded piano never sounded like my Yamaha grand piano. It was only after experimenting with 6 different LODs (and the same amp and cans) that I found one LOD where the recording of my own piano sounded like my own piano!

Of the six different LODs that I tried, it was not the most expensive that sounded correct, nor was it a cheapie. My point is that each LOD made the recording of my very own piano sound different to my ears. And one LOD created a synergy between my equipment that made my recording sound as when I recorded it.

Please note: This was never meant to be a study of LODs. I was recorded with the intention of studying my technique when playing a particular piece of music.

Another important note: The LOD that makes my recorded piano sound correct on the rig that I mentioned above does not sound correct with my 2 newer amps, the Pico and iQube. So I'm back to square one again.

So in conclusion, I can only say that with my experience, different LODs do indeed sound different to MY ears. I would never say one is better than another, but I can say that in my opinion, they do sound different.

 

[Nocturnal310]

If u feel it sounds better good for u.

If u feel it doesnt sound better..again good for u.

U dont need others to tell you what your ear should hear or not.

Its your ear at the end of the day.

FOR OP: Get the cheap cables... its iPod anyway

 

[hatethatgiraffe]

LOD arrived from qables today and without anything to compare it to it sounds amazing ..... no hiss , nothing just clear crisp music which is( once again) letting me hear things never heard b4.
Just letting my I-qube charge and then i'm going to have a good listen to that too.
whether we agree or disagree is part of human life if we all thought that one thing was better than everything else there would be no advancement and we would all be driving model T Ford's with no cup holders for our starbucks coffee lol
if everything was the same and we all agreed there would be no need for forums as there would be no debate!

 

[Nocturnal310]

Read my Signature quote..


Thats the tendency of everyone here including me.

 

[chris_ah1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif That cable will definitely work (assuming it's not defective). What you get with a more expensive cable: - shorter cable that makes a compact rig - nicer looking cable - better workmanship in some cases - better connectors in some cases I use the ALO Cryo Dock because I really love the way it looks in my rig. I am more confident in the longevity of the cable also. I know how anal I am... I would have tried 4 or 5 different cheap cables before I found one I liked so for me the ALO dock was probably cheaper.

Bang on and something I've echoed a few times elsewhere.
To make a quality LOD would cost me A LOT of money if doing it myself as I don't have the expertise nor the parts.

The cryo cable might not make a difference to sound, but if you look at pictures at how it is flexible and can make a compact rig you will be amazed. You just can't get a 4 or 6" LOD in the stores. In fact you CANT buy an ipod LOD unless you get the full blown dock in the UK. I'm sure a good audio store will build you one, but they will ship the parts from elsewhere. It's not an off-the-shelf item.

Material choice is more about how the cable will be used. You can't have silver for a portable rig that will be jostled and slung around (delicate and not flexible).

Then again, an expensive cable might have other shortcomings that it's price don't reflect - does it have good shielding? or just be so super duper special you might mortgage your house if it gets nicked(stolen) or breaks.

 

[Champ04]

gilency,
No need to apologize. I was merely using your quote as a launch pad for my own opinion.
But thank you much. Respecting others is always good. And clarity is always welcome.

(no pun intended.)

 

[gilency]

Just to show how I can be on both sides of the fence, I bought this great low profile LOD form Punnisher. It is certainly much better looking than the cheap mini to mini Radio Shack cable I was using before and I like the fact I can control the volume directly from the amplifier. Also there is no hiss whatsoever.
Is it better than the cheap cable? most certainly. Will I buy more cables in the future? without a doubt.
My purchases however will have some sense of rationality (or irrationality), trying to stay within certain price bracket.
(as long as my wife is watching!)

 

[dap_pad]

How much did you pay for the LOD, gilency?