Introducing the LCD-i3
Apr 25, 2020 at 5:12 AM Post #601 of 1,041
Can the LCD i3 compete with Open back headphones for scale of sound and overall sense of space ? I'm planning on buying this, primarily for home use. Owners, kindly suggest...
It's different. The presentation is much more intimate. The stage width is big and with the right source you can get good depth. But compared to my LCD-3 and even EL8, where there is a huge sense of scale, a 3D space for each instrument and a presentation of "a few rows back", with the LCD-i3 it's flatter and you're "there with the band".
 
Apr 25, 2020 at 6:44 AM Post #602 of 1,041
It's different. The presentation is much more intimate. The stage width is big and with the right source you can get good depth. But compared to my LCD-3 and even EL8, where there is a huge sense of scale, a 3D space for each instrument and a presentation of "a few rows back", with the LCD-i3 it's flatter and you're "there with the band".
Thanks for the insight. Lot of reviews online, say that they're an equal to Open backs, So I wanted an owner's perspective.
 
Apr 25, 2020 at 7:47 PM Post #604 of 1,041
I would also put the LCDi3 in the same ballpark as the big circumaural LCD series headphones. The naming is very appropriate.
 
Apr 26, 2020 at 10:37 PM Post #605 of 1,041
For those that have heard both the LCDi3 and LCDi4, can you compare/contrast the sound quality with the included 3.5mm cable, and through a desktop system or DAP? (No DSP, and not using the CIPHER cable)

There are some glowing reviews of the LCDi4 in that configuration, whereas most everyone seems to think the LCDi3 sounds wrong with no DSP ... yet they seem to have similar FR graphs? (see graph)
 

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Apr 27, 2020 at 3:11 AM Post #606 of 1,041
For those that have heard both the LCDi3 and LCDi4, can you compare/contrast the sound quality with the included 3.5mm cable, and through a desktop system or DAP? (No DSP, and not using the CIPHER cable)

There are some glowing reviews of the LCDi4 in that configuration, whereas most everyone seems to think the LCDi3 sounds wrong with no DSP ... yet they seem to have similar FR graphs? (see graph)
I haven't heard the i4. Audeze themselves claim that both models should have similar FR, therefor they recommend to use the i4's DSP (Roon, Reveal plugin) with the i3 too.
For me the i4 DSP on the i3 doesn't work well. It takes all of the air out and just sounds dull. So I'm confused by that too.
 
Apr 27, 2020 at 12:27 PM Post #607 of 1,041
Interesting reviewer's video of "Planar v.s. Dynamic, BA, Hybrid in ear monitors (IEM)":

(one of the IEMs he discusses is the Audeze iSine 20, which I understand is very close to the LCDi3)

He also has a full review of the Audeze iSine 20 here:
 
Apr 27, 2020 at 4:36 PM Post #608 of 1,041
I haven't heard the i4. Audeze themselves claim that both models should have similar FR, therefor they recommend to use the i4's DSP (Roon, Reveal plugin) with the i3 too.
For me the i4 DSP on the i3 doesn't work well. It takes all of the air out and just sounds dull. So I'm confused by that too.
Did you give it a fair chance, though? If you've been using them 'bare' for a while, enabling the EQ will definitely throw you off at first. Like most everything, you'll adjust to the new tuning after a while and then switching back to bare will be quite unbearably bright and glassy.

For Roon users, you can customize the amount of correction to apply in the Reveal plugin: the "Mix" option, at the bottom. 100% (which they call "wet") is the full EQ applied. Anywhere below that is cutting back the EQ levels in proportion (0% is no EQ at all).
 
Apr 27, 2020 at 9:45 PM Post #609 of 1,041
(one of the IEMs he discusses is the Audeze iSine 20, which I understand is very close to the LCDi3)

No, they are not. I've listened i10, i20 and i3, alone and in direct comparison. iSine 20 is the most bright variant of all Audeze IEMs I've heard to this day. LCD-i3 are much more similar in tonality to i10 with even more warmth. I have a full review of LCD-i3 on my blog, with this FR graph:

i3-frequency-response-graph-1900-01.jpg


As you can see, there are significant differences. In short:
  • iSine 20: better super-low bass and more bass overall, brighter, faster with more attack, wider soundstage with more center-focus.
  • LCD-i3: better transition from mid to high freqs (more relaxing and laidback, less shouty 1,5 kHz "spike of doom"), better clarity and definition, better dynamics, warmer (mostly due to faster drop in 3,5 kHz and significantly lower pressure in 4-5,5 kHz), more 3D soundstage with more depth.
IMO i20 can be considered as older LCD-2F 2016 mixed with some features from LCD-XC. Tonal balance from 2F with better bas and center-focusing from XC. LCD-i3 can be treated as mix of LCD-3 and MX4. Tonal balance of MX4 with holography and depth from LCD-3.
 
Apr 27, 2020 at 10:05 PM Post #610 of 1,041
No, they are not. ...
Perhaps I should have phrased it as "which some reviewers have felt the differences don't justify an upgrade to the LCDi3"? :wink:
...
As you can see, there are significant differences. In short:
  • iSine 20: better super-low bass and more bass overall, brighter, faster with more attack, wider soundstage with more center-focus.
  • LCD-i3: better transition from mid to high freqs (more relaxing and laidback, less shouty 1,5 kHz "spike of doom"), better clarity and definition, better dynamics, warmer (mostly due to faster drop in 3,5 kHz and significantly lower pressure in 4-5,5 kHz), more 3D soundstage with more depth.
IMO i20 can be considered as older LCD-2F 2016 mixed with some features from LCD-XC. Tonal balance from 2F with better bas and center-focusing from XC. LCD-i3 can be treated as mix of LCD-3 and MX4. Tonal balance of MX4 with holography and depth from LCD-3.
Do you think the differences justify the higher price for the LCDi3?
 
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Apr 27, 2020 at 11:48 PM Post #611 of 1,041
Did you give it a fair chance, though? If you've been using them 'bare' for a while, enabling the EQ will definitely throw you off at first. Like most everything, you'll adjust to the new tuning after a while and then switching back to bare will be quite unbearably bright and glassy.

For Roon users, you can customize the amount of correction to apply in the Reveal plugin: the "Mix" option, at the bottom. 100% (which they call "wet") is the full EQ applied. Anywhere below that is cutting back the EQ levels in proportion (0% is no EQ at all).
I gave it a few days when I first got them. I was going through the brain break in anyway so how good it sounded to me changed over those days.
But even when using the recommended EQ manually without DSP, I "disagree" with it. Audeze do a 8dB(!) dip at 10K. I changed that to 2dB.
I might try again with reducing the wetness as you suggested.
 
Apr 28, 2020 at 4:17 AM Post #612 of 1,041
Perhaps I should have phrased it as "which some reviewers have felt the differences don't justify an upgrade to the LCDi3"? :wink:

The problem with i3 vs i20 comes down to not only the difference in sound quality, but also shape of soundstage and tonality.
  • If you want the most clean and dynamic sound, then i3 takes the lead. The sound is smoother and more polished than i10 and i20, more refined in objective terms.
  • If you are chasing after the biggest and deepest soundstage, this is a mixed bag. i20 are wider (L-R axis) and in some music can appear as bigger in that area. i3 on the other hand are more 3D and have more spacious front-back axis, which gives them more sense of space even if their L-R axis is slightly shorter than in i20.
  • If you are looking for the most bright and upfront tonality, then i20 takes the lead as the fastest (due to brighter highs), more aggressive (super-low bass), agile.
Personal preferences will be the final judge here, but there are areas where i20 excels, and there are many where i3 excels. i3 are not doing everything better everytime over i20, hence my conclusion about not being full upgrade, but still upgrade, if you accept tonal differences.

I've had the same dillemma with LCD-2F vs LCD-3F back in the day. LCD-3 were clearly the winner in sound quality, soundstage, bass. LCD-2F were more even, more natural, not as warm and without annoying 6-8 kHz dip. The same problem is with LCD-i3, and with the same dip in that area and that is the reason why many people claim they sound wrong without DSP/EQ (including myself). At the moment, I have both i10 and i20 at the same time (working on another review) and surprisingly, there are often times when I am using iSine 10 instead of i20. Worse sound quality, but again this smoother transition from mids to highs and more coherency gives me more natural and pleasing sound, while i20 can sound with more nasal highs in direct comparison. If you take i10, i20 and i3, there will be much more similarities between i10 and i3, which leaves i20 as the most specific and standing out of those three. This is the reason why I do not share the view that i3 is a direct replacement for i20. For i10 - more likely.

Fun fact: from i10, i20 and i3, I like the i10 on standard jack 3,5 mm the most, no DSP, no EQ, just normal usage as any other headphone I own. I didn't made FR for them yet, so because of that I am expecting better response in 4-6k region. I prefer "listening first, measure later" policy to avoid biasing myself unnecessairly.

Do you think the differences justify the higher price for the LCDi3?

Versus i20? Probably yes. As I have stated in my own review, we have to take into consideration additional accessories, which were not present in i20 even in the last manufacturing days. On top of that, there is better outer shell of each headphone (magnesium vs plastic), more holography and higher quality of sound overall. That is the reason why I feel the price tag is quite justified, but that is just my personal opinion. Although I hope it helps.
 
Apr 28, 2020 at 10:03 AM Post #614 of 1,041
To add to my previous query, in my country, the LCD-X and LCD i3 fall within the same price range. I do not have extensive experience with IEMs, as all I've owned upto now, are open and closed back Over ears. Which one do you guys think, would be the best choice ?
 

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