[Rochambeaux]

In our feedback, number of users sticking to Prime mode significantly outnumber any demands for unlocked launcher.

Why can't it just be unlocked and the consumer can decide if they want to use Prime Mode or not? It's no difference than UAPP on an Android phone. I can use any app as it comes or go through UAPP. Characterizing this as a "Prime mode" or the highway is a terrible attitude to have to your customers.

 

[fish1050]

In our feedback, number of users sticking to Prime mode significantly outnumber any demands for unlocked launcher.

Okey but why can't you offer it both ways? Let the people who want to use Prime Mode use it. But also let the other people who don't want to use Prime Mode because they have to use your Music App the option to use a different Launcher and thus disable Prime Mode? The more options that are available to potential buyers the greater chance of selling more units which I am sure is your main goal.

Buyers want more options for how to use their DAP's not less. Nothing turns a customer off faster than telling them a product can't do what they want it to do. The people on this forum are telling you what they want but you are content to tell them what they can't have. Not a recipe for success based on my experience selling consumer electronics.

 

[fish1050]

Why can't it just be unlocked and the consumer can decide if they want to use Prime Mode or not? It's no difference than UAPP on an Android phone. I can use any app as it comes or go through UAPP. Characterizing this as a "Prime mode" or the highway is a terrible attitude to have to your customers.

You beat me to the post by a few minutes, I am basically trying to make the same point with my post.

 

[RCracer777]

Why can't it just be unlocked and the consumer can decide if they want to use Prime Mode or not? It's no difference than UAPP on an Android phone. I can use any app as it comes or go through UAPP. Characterizing this as a "Prime mode" or the highway is a terrible attitude to have to your customers.

Okey but why can't you offer it both ways? Let the people who want to use Prime Mode use it. But also let the other people who don't want to use Prime Mode because they have to use your Music App the option to use a different Launcher and thus disable Prime Mode? The more options that are available to potential buyers the greater chance of selling more units which I am sure is your main goal.

Buyers want more options for how to use their DAP's not less. Nothing turns a customer off faster than telling them a product can't do what they want it to do. The people on this forum are telling you what they want but you are content to tell them what they can't have. Not a recipe for success based on my experience selling consumer electronics.

I'm going to play devils advocate here and give some answers based on my experience as a product designer and some good ol' fashioned guess work.
Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Shanling or any other audio brand but will say I'm interested in both the M3 Ultra and M6 Ultra as potential additions to my collection.

I haven't used the Shanling music app yet so I can't comment one how good or bad it is. But using a different music app as your main player app is something I can understand, I have a device whose music app is downright horrible. That said, expecting for a manufacturer to make exclusive features like Prime mode available for apps from the competition is a downright unreasonable expectation to have from any brand. No matter how much you want it. It's not like you can't use other music player apps at all, it's just a extra feature for Shanling's own music app.

Aside from ethics, something like using a different app in prime mode is a lot harder to implement than you think. Getting all the processes in the background to work correctly as well as keeping up with the updates of the other apps to make sure of compatibility take a lot of time and work, and time costs money. No company is going to spend money to make exclusive features available to their competition. It makes no sense from a business perspective.
And the UAPP example is not the same thing, that's simple routing of a audio signal which can be done without controlling another apps processes.

You don't engineer for the minority, given that said minority is under 20% of (potential) users. If it's barely a minority, say around 35%~40%, some action should be taken. Some exceptions apply if it is something that is easy to add and won't take much time or if the missing feature is common among the competition and the effort is deemed to be worth the payoff, e.g. gapless playback. I personally don't use gapless playback much if at all, but do agree it should be there as an option.
A exception on the opposite side of this is that if the cost is too expensive or it's too complicated to be feasible even though a majority wants it, it should then be explained that it's not possible for X or Y reason.

Now if this was a open source project and the original creator made a function like a exclusive mode only for his favorite music app, you'd have a point. But it's not a open source project. Shanling has probably sold well in excess of 1000 DAPs that have this Prime mode feature and there are less than 10 people asking about this particular use case. It makes no sense to spend any time on this from a financial point of view or from a customer service point of view. Losing less than 0.1% of (potential) customers isn't going to make any difference to any company, and the costs behind trying to get that last 0.1% is simply not worth it. It's not like any other manufacturer is doing this either that I know of. You can't make everyone happy.


In my personal opinion, if you want to use a different music player app as your main app or even want change the launcher/OS, that is fine and the device allows this. But it's not the manufacturers job to make sure everything works perfectly when you don't use the device as intended (different OS/Launcher or loss exclusive features with different apps). That's all on you as the consumer as it's your choice to use it in this way.

 

[Rochambeaux]

Aside from ethics, something like using a different app in prime mode is a lot harder to implement than you think.

You are totally missing the point of our argument. No one is asking for "blanket" compatibility *with* Prime mode just the ability to utilize as Android as what it is - an open platform. If I wanted a locked ecosystem I'd go Apple.

Everyone on this side of the debate understands that being able to use Prime comes with trade offs - no one, including Shanling, have been able to provide a rational reason for why they can't allow things like 3rd party Launchers without Prime functionality. If they're saying that in order to make Prime work they have to "cripple" or highly modify Android that's a different point. They should just come out and say that. My argument would then be how can an app like UAPP do essentially the same thing yet coexist peacefully in an "open" environment?

Personally I think it's not rocket science to do that but Shanling has chosen to spend as little as possible on software side, which is why I decided to just by a used LG G8X (less than $150). I get a miles faster processor, bigger/nicer display, camera, security, ability to connect via LTE, etc. and great sound via the on-board DAC. Is it as 'audiophile" as the M3 Ultra? probably not but if that last 5% of audio quality was that important I wouldn't be looking at any mobile device.

 

[Shanling]

We discussed it with our software team, here is their official stance on this issue:

For the security and stability of the system, launcher is locked to the default one picked by software team. Rest of the system is still wide open Android platform with all its customizability. There will be no changes to this setup.

 

[fish1050]

I'm going to play devils advocate here and give some answers based on my experience as a product designer and some good ol' fashioned guess work.
Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Shanling or any other audio brand but will say I'm interested in both the M3 Ultra and M6 Ultra as potential additions to my collection.

I haven't used the Shanling music app yet so I can't comment one how good or bad it is. But using a different music app as your main player app is something I can understand, I have a device whose music app is downright horrible. That said, expecting for a manufacturer to make exclusive features like Prime mode available for apps from the competition is a downright unreasonable expectation to have from any brand. No matter how much you want it. It's not like you can't use other music player apps at all, it's just a extra feature for Shanling's own music app.

Aside from ethics, something like using a different app in prime mode is a lot harder to implement than you think. Getting all the processes in the background to work correctly as well as keeping up with the updates of the other apps to make sure of compatibility take a lot of time and work, and time costs money. No company is going to spend money to make exclusive features available to their competition. It makes no sense from a business perspective.
And the UAPP example is not the same thing, that's simple routing of a audio signal which can be done without controlling another apps processes.

You don't engineer for the minority, given that said minority is under 20% of (potential) users. If it's barely a minority, say around 35%~40%, some action should be taken. Some exceptions apply if it is something that is easy to add and won't take much time or if the missing feature is common among the competition and the effort is deemed to be worth the payoff, e.g. gapless playback. I personally don't use gapless playback much if at all, but do agree it should be there as an option.
A exception on the opposite side of this is that if the cost is too expensive or it's too complicated to be feasible even though a majority wants it, it should then be explained that it's not possible for X or Y reason.

Now if this was a open source project and the original creator made a function like a exclusive mode only for his favorite music app, you'd have a point. But it's not a open source project. Shanling has probably sold well in excess of 1000 DAPs that have this Prime mode feature and there are less than 10 people asking about this particular use case. It makes no sense to spend any time on this from a financial point of view or from a customer service point of view. Losing less than 0.1% of (potential) customers isn't going to make any difference to any company, and the costs behind trying to get that last 0.1% is simply not worth it. It's not like any other manufacturer is doing this either that I know of. You can't make everyone happy.


In my personal opinion, if you want to use a different music player app as your main app or even want change the launcher/OS, that is fine and the device allows this. But it's not the manufacturers job to make sure everything works perfectly when you don't use the device as intended (different OS/Launcher or loss exclusive features with different apps). That's all on you as the consumer as it's your choice to use it in this way.

Yes you make some valid points but when your competition is Sony who will be releasing the NW-A306 sometime soon then you need to bring your A game. Sony is apparently addressing the one weakness of the A105 (battery life) with a larger battery, more efficient chipset and customized Android 12. It won't come with a hobbled Sony Music App like Shanling's Music App. No language issues with poor handling of special characters and assuming they are priced in the same ballpark it will be hard to choose the M3 Ultra over the A306. That's just the reality of competing in this DAP space. We need to wait and see the final makeup of the A306 but so far it seems like it should be a very solid DAP. The M3 Ultra should have the edge in power but on the software side Sony will be several levels above Shanling's offering.

I have owned the Q1 for over a year and I bought it after it had been on the market for a year and it still needed firmware updates a year in to address issues. My Sony A55 is light years ahead on the software side and thanks to the custom firmware sound quality is stellar. While I like the M1S in theory I am wary of taking a step back on the OS side from the A55 to the M1S if Shanling doesn't improve the MTouch OS from the Q1 and it needs alot of work. Looking forward to reading impressions on the M1S once it is released especially in regards to the OS.

Comparisons between the M3 Ultra and the A306 will also be interesting once they are both available. Also just read a very good review of the Fiio M11S which is about the same price as the M3 Ultra but has a larger 5" retina display and higher end dual ESS Sabre DAC chips. Unlike Shanling's Music App the Fiio Music is very well reviewed. After bad experiences with both the Fiio M7 and M9 I vowed never to consider another Fiio DAP but the M11S looks like more stiff competition for the M3 Ultra.

Fiio like Sony does a much better job on the software side than Shanling does and if sound quality is close to the M3 Ultra the software could make the Sony and Fiio DAP's better options in this price range. Looking forward to some real world comparisons down the road when all 3 are available.

 

[fish1050]

We discussed it with our software team, here is their official stance on this issue:

For the security and stability of the system, launcher is locked to the default one picked by software team. Rest of the system is still wide open Android platform with all its customizability. There will be no changes to this setup.

I just hope this decision doesn't cost you cause you look to have some real competitors to the M3 Ultra and they won't be crippled by a lame duck music app that for many (not all) that could turn them to the competition. I use to consider Shanling to have a real edge in sound quality compared to other Chinese DAP's but the gap is closing. Fiio focused strictly on higher end models the last couple of years and it looks to have paid off in the M11S with some of that high end R&D coming down to a lower price point.

 

[Rochambeaux]

I just hope this decision doesn't cost you cause you look to have some real competitors to the M3 Ultra and they won't be crippled by a lame duck music app that for many (not all) that could turn them to the competition. I use to consider Shanling to have a real edge in sound quality compared to other Chinese DAP's but the gap is closing. Fiio focused strictly on higher end models the last couple of years and it looks to have paid off in the M11S with some of that high end R&D coming down to a lower price point.

Yes you make some valid points but when your competition is Sony who will be releasing the NW-A306 sometime soon then you need to bring your A game. Sony is apparently addressing the one weakness of the A105 (battery life) with a larger battery, more efficient chipset and customized Android 12. It won't come with a hobbled Sony Music App like Shanling's Music App. No language issues with poor handling of special characters and assuming they are priced in the same ballpark it will be hard to choose the M3 Ultra over the A306. That's just the reality of competing in this DAP space. We need to wait and see the final makeup of the A306 but so far it seems like it should be a very solid DAP. The M3 Ultra should have the edge in power but on the software side Sony will be several levels above Shanling's offering.

I have owned the Q1 for over a year and I bought it after it had been on the market for a year and it still needed firmware updates a year in to address issues. My Sony A55 is light years ahead on the software side and thanks to the custom firmware sound quality is stellar. While I like the M1S in theory I am wary of taking a step back on the OS side from the A55 to the M1S if Shanling doesn't improve the MTouch OS from the Q1 and it needs alot of work. Looking forward to reading impressions on the M1S once it is released especially in regards to the OS.

Comparisons between the M3 Ultra and the A306 will also be interesting once they are both available. Also just read a very good review of the Fiio M11S which is about the same price as the M3 Ultra but has a larger 5" retina display and higher end dual ESS Sabre DAC chips. Unlike Shanling's Music App the Fiio Music is very well reviewed. After bad experiences with both the Fiio M7 and M9 I vowed never to consider another Fiio DAP but the M11S looks like more stiff competition for the M3 Ultra.

Fiio like Sony does a much better job on the software side than Shanling does and if sound quality is close to the M3 Ultra the software could make the Sony and Fiio DAP's better options in this price range. Looking forward to some real world comparisons down the road when all 3 are available.

I'm glad there's folks here who are true "audiophiles" providing such good feedback.

In an increasingly competitive marketplace these discussions remind of the Great Camera Debates going on. I took up photography a few years ago to combine with my lifelong interest in bird watching. My wife has been a "prosumer" photographer for years and it has been a chance for us to share those 2 interests together.

In just those 2 years I've watched as the hardcore photographers dismissed the rise of smartphone camera technology - it reminds me a lot of audiophiles and their gear. While there will always be a "high end" market for any product, those with strong technology foundations will become increasingly boutique.

I say this as a photographer that invested a good deal of money on my camera gear for bird photography; ~$8,000 for camera and lenses. Not professional level either, but still a good sum of ducts. At the same time, I use my Samsung S22 for pretty much any picture situation except birds/wildlife. Why? it's so much easier, convenient and most importantly: the quality is more than good for me.

I may be the exception but I think not. I employ the same standard for audio. I love music but I'm not the camera equivalent of a "pixel peeper". If I can get to (in my opinion) 90% of the quality plus gain other value adds by using a phone for 1/3 the price, guess what....

Companies like Shanling should take note as, like cameras, you either have to truly innovate or you will go extinct.

 

[InvisibleInk]

I'm glad there's folks here who are true "audiophiles" providing such good feedback.

In an increasingly competitive marketplace these discussions remind of the Great Camera Debates going on. I took up photography a few years ago to combine with my lifelong interest in bird watching. My wife has been a "prosumer" photographer for years and it has been a chance for us to share those 2 interests together.

In just those 2 years I've watched as the hardcore photographers dismissed the rise of smartphone camera technology - it reminds me a lot of audiophiles and their gear. While there will always be a "high end" market for any product, those with strong technology foundations will become increasingly boutique.

I say this as a photographer that invested a good deal of money on my camera gear for bird photography; ~$8,000 for camera and lenses. Not professional level either, but still a good sum of ducts. At the same time, I use my Samsung S22 for pretty much any picture situation except birds/wildlife. Why? it's so much easier, convenient and most importantly: the quality is more than good for me.

I may be the exception but I think not. I employ the same standard for audio. I love music but I'm not the camera equivalent of a "pixel peeper". If I can get to (in my opinion) 90% of the quality plus gain other value adds by using a phone for 1/3 the price, guess what....

Companies like Shanling should take note as, like cameras, you either have to truly innovate or you will go extinct.

When it come to digital audio players like those Shanling offers, audiophiles care about features and performance no phone is likely to support or match. Non-audiophiles won't miss things like Hi-Res files such as DSD (which evolved from the SACD format). Nor will the average consumer care about getting the best digital-to-analog conversion or balanced amplifiers for difficult to drive transducers that they are unlikely to own or even know about. Not to mention the very best Bluetooth codecs or parametric equalizers and more.

So if a Samsung or Apple phone gets the job done in terms pure musical enjoyment, and a dongle is all a person needs for their transducer of choice, that's great! I wouldn't encourage anyone to follow me down into this fascinating rabbit hole I explore. It's up to them to discover and enter it for themselves. When they do, I'll be here to welcome and assist them.

 

[fish1050]

When it come to digital audio players like those Shanling offers, audiophiles care about features and performance no phone is likely to support or match. Non-audiophiles won't miss things like Hi-Res files such as DSD (which evolved from the SACD format). Nor will the average consumer care about getting the best digital-to-analog conversion or balanced amplifiers for difficult to drive transducers that they are unlikely to own or even know about. Not to mention the very best Bluetooth codecs or parametric equalizers and more.

So if a Samsung or Apple phone gets the job done in terms pure musical enjoyment, and a dongle is all a person needs for their transducer of choice, that's great! I wouldn't encourage anyone to follow me down into this fascinating rabbit hole I explore. It's up to them to discover and enter it for themselves. When they do, I'll be here to welcome and assist them.

It is funny you posted this, when people especially my nieces and nephews see me with my NAD HP50's and my A55 they say to me why don't you just use your phone and get some ipods. Then I put my headphones on their heads and press play on the A55. The looks on their faces are priceless, pure astonishment, that a combo that cost me less than $400.00 blows the doors off what they listen to on their $2000.00 iphones with their ipods. As they say ignorance is bliss, it has taken some time but I am slowly getting them to see and hear the beauty of high quality HiRes audio on a quality DAP and it doesn't have to cost you an arm and a leg to hear great sound quality.

 

[Rochambeaux]

It is funny you posted this, when people especially my nieces and nephews see me with my NAD HP50's and my A55 they say to me why don't you just use your phone and get some ipods. Then I put my headphones on their heads and press play on the A55. The looks on their faces are priceless, pure astonishment, that a combo that cost me less than $400.00 blows the doors off what they listen to on their $2000.00 iphones with their ipods. As they say ignorance is bliss, it has taken some time but I am slowly getting them to see and hear the beauty of high quality HiRes audio on a quality DAP and it doesn't have to cost you an arm and a leg to hear great sound quality.

I agree in part with your argument but you've taken it to the other extreme in your example. I bet tomorrow's doughnut & coffee money if you gave your nieces and nephews a decent USB dongle (like Helm Bolt) and the same headphones in a blind test they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and any DAP.

People (especially those that are not serious audiophiles) see expensive gear and *think* it sounds better because if it's 10X more expensive it has to, right?

Again, those that have spent years around the gear and source files might be able to hear and explain the diffeence but like pixel peepers in photrography most people aren't interested in turning an art form/hobby into a science.

 

[Stu Paddasso]

My question how does the M3u sound compared to bigger daps like M7 & M8 ????

 

[fish1050]

I agree in part with your argument but you've taken it to the other extreme in your example. I bet tomorrow's doughnut & coffee money if you gave your nieces and nephews a decent USB dongle (like Helm Bolt) and the same headphones in a blind test they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that and any DAP.

People (especially those that are not serious audiophiles) see expensive gear and *think* it sounds better because if it's 10X more expensive it has to, right?

Again, those that have spent years around the gear and source files might be able to hear and explain the diffeence but like pixel peepers in photrography most people aren't interested in turning an art form/hobby into a science.

The thing is I have used my NAD HP50's over the 3 years I have owned them with multiple smartphones I have owned and friends smartphones including Android and Apple and I can most definitely hear a difference compared to my Sony A55 and Shanling Q1 before it. My friends and colleagues also could tell the difference, three bought a Q1 after hearing my HP50/Q1 combo and another jumped on Aliexpress and ordered an A55 which I installed the MrWalkman firmware on and he is crazy in love with the sound quality. The only reason I would use a smartphone for listening to music is if I stream it and even then I synced my smartphone to my Q1 and used it to listen and still heard a difference. The looks on my nieces and nephews faces told me without hesitation that they heard it to.

keep in mind the quality of the tracks matter as well and streaming compressed audio to a smartphone simply can't sound as good as high quality uncompressed tracks on a DAP, especially with really good wired headphones, certainly not in my experience. I have almost 14,000 flac files on my A55 and I have listened to the same tracks streamed to my phone and it is night and day better on the DAP. I certainly would never put 14,000 tracks on a smartphone which is another reason to own a DAP. I am retiring next year and selling my business and my wife and I both want to ditch our smartphones and get talk and text only phones to save the money. So my inexpensive DAP's will be my only source of portable music come next year. We are among the lucky few that never became addicted to screens and I won't miss lugging around that oversized pocket brick.

 

[Rochambeaux]

The thing is I have used my NAD HP50's over the 3 years I have owned them with multiple smartphones I have owned and friends smartphones including Android and Apple and I can most definitely hear a difference compared to my Sony A55 and Shanling Q1 before it. My friends and colleagues also could tell the difference, three bought a Q1 after hearing my HP50/Q1 combo and another jumped on Aliexpress and ordered an A55 which I installed the MrWalkman firmware on and he is crazy in love with the sound quality. The only reason I would use a smartphone for listening to music is if I stream it and even then I synced my smartphone to my Q1 and used it to listen and still heard a difference. The looks on my nieces and nephews faces told me without hesitation that they heard it to.

keep in mind the quality of the tracks matter as well and streaming compressed audio to a smartphone simply can't sound as good as high quality uncompressed tracks on a DAP, especially with really good wired headphones, certainly not in my experience. I have almost 14,000 flac files on my A55 and I have listened to the same tracks streamed to my phone and it is night and day better on the DAP. I certainly would never put 14,000 tracks on a smartphone which is another reason to own a DAP. I am retiring next year and selling my business and my wife and I both want to ditch our smartphones and get talk and text only phones to save the money. So my inexpensive DAP's will be my only source of portable music come next year. We are among the lucky few that never became addicted to screens and I won't miss lugging around that oversized pocket brick.

You touched on a critical weakness of smartphones - storage. The removal of the card slot from almost all phones has been a purely profit decision. Apple did it from Day 1 and everyone realized the astronomical margin they made on storage "upgrades" on their phones. I have joked for the last 10 years that my dream job is running the storage business for iPhones . Just another reason I settled on the LG V60 as my "DAP" - very nice audio components and the price of it plus a 1TB card was still below $400. I listened to it side by side with the M3 Ultra and DX170 and while there were some differences, not enough to warrant all the "extras" the phone approach provided.