[Kitechaser]

Okay after listening to them for a bit, they are pretty nice. Obviously a great get for someone that is not used to audiophile quality music. Tuning is fun, and exciting.
Musicality is high.
I am hoping the bitrate is higher with the bluetooth 5 (it's supposed to be twice as fast 500kb/sec). I can't really give these an honest shake with my phone.
Scratch my over the top earlier excitement, got a bit ahead of myself.
Still the best true wireless I have heard so far, but it is showing its limitations.

Bluetooth 5 is a prerequisite to use these in any meaningful way, at least for me.

Edit: just emailed RHA to confirm bitrate and codecs used on bluetooth 5.

 

[Wiljen]

Another track that surprised me is Bon Jovi - Blaze of Glory - the original master. Intro sounds good with great separation and placement. Vocals start at 00:46 and sound good if a bit forward but then as his voice rises it gets harsh quick - about 1:06 ("Six-Gun Lover") in is a great example of the edge the CL2 can display.

 

[antdroid]

Okay after listening to them for a bit, they are pretty nice. Obviously a great get for someone that is not used to audiophile quality music. Tuning is fun, and exciting.
Musicality is high.
I am hoping the bitrate is higher with the bluetooth 5 (it's supposed to be twice as fast 500kb/sec). I can't really give these an honest shake with my phone.
Scratch my over the top earlier excitement, got a bit ahead of myself.
Still the best true wireless I have heard so far, but it is showing its limitations.

Bluetooth 5 is a prerequisite to use these in any meaningful way, at least for me.

Bluetooth 5 isn't going to make SBC sound better.

You should consider getting the TRN BT20 with your CL2 that you love so much if you want a true wireless experience. Despite it missing out on the higher end codecs it works great for using with my me1 and other iems for working out and music listening while doing chores and projects

 

[Kitechaser]

@antdroid thank you for that suggestion. Just got an IT01s, this might just do the trick for me.

So RHA just got in touch with me. My CL2s are off to Scotland.
Thank you @RHA Team for getting back to me quickly. Much appreciated.

 

[MulberryMadness]

Have to check out that full version, thank you. I completely agree, the 2017 remaster box set was cited by @McCol as an example of a track where the piano attack and drums were harsh on the CL2, it was a bit uncomfortable and didn't sound right.
The earlier version did not have any of those problems, and was much easier on the ears. Just one example of a few where the compression remastering made the mids aggressive.
This is a clip of all the different remasters of this album attached in succession, very interesting.

To my ears 1984 RCA Germany, and 1990 Rykodisc sound the best.

Interesting yt comparison...but, seems to be more 'accurate' (loaded term ;p) if the volume levels were the same...which they are obviously not.

Super long thread took me 6+hrs to read thru, so many posts (not complaining, just makes for hrs of speed/gleaning) with clips/ty vids of various suggestions...good thing not all threads have so many of these as I'd never get thru them all, even a fraction. Read most of Kitechasers posts, skipped over many others. Since so much OT like posts here, even by mods (wink)...guess it's alright for me to do same? Q for KC, have you, since u seem to like 'measurements' given recently post about age of reviewers on this thread...tested ur sine wave max? I'm 2x ur age, and don't know if my hearing is as bad as retired legend Tyll Herstins who said he had to quite bc @60 his hearing was just not good enough to run innerfidelity anymore https://medium.com/@Xander51/the-fall-of-innerfidelity-com-92b0052699d4 ...guess that happens to all of us, eventually...unless in our 'old age', we go Bourdain on every1 . Hey, the walkin dead Keith Richards is going semi-sober in his old age, so anything is possible...except death & taxes of course.

I took this test, made me even more depressed(but then on crappy QC30's SDC BT 4, NC on full...maybe not the best test for volume levels ;p) found I may have serious hearing loss even @8k, my sine wave cutoff is even lower than a few yrs ago, now @11 or 12k...which means naturally 128kbs mp3 far exceeds my hearing capability & therefore I should be find with 99c store $5 earbuds...uh, maybe not.

https://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_hearingtestaudiogram.php <(wonder just how error prone that rubbing your fingers in front of your nose is to 'calibrate'?) 50dbhl @8k, say it aint so.

Funny how I can't for the life of me(hearing loss be damned) understand/hear what exactly phase imbalance is, I keep listening to the example, can't tell it from 'normal' sounds slightly difference, but my head isn't 'swimming' at all...must be the drugs, huh?

https://training.npr.org/audio/quiz-do-you-have-the-ears-of-an-audio-producer/ everything else I nailed easily...so maybe I'm still audio engineer potential...not.

^ looking at the 'reverb'/echo test...i"m hearing a full on echo chamber effect on the socalled 'preferred' Rykodisc...maybe I'm just overly sensitive, don't wan't to hear that. It's kind of like when the org MobileFidelity 1/2sp master releases came out and those sounded so different from the mass produced/compressed sound LP versions, you hardly could recognize them...many sounded so different from what you'd hear off the radio, you think it's an badly altered version...to me, to some, on some recordings...just liked the 'lousy' commercial sounds more, bc it's what you got used to.

Take an example of ok (but really outstanding for a TV charity show) fidelity recording of this Live Aid Sultans of Swing(btw, I h8td the metal version posted earlier in the thread...heard much better thrash metal in my time)
Mark Knopfler on Guitars


....OT, but if you've not seen this^ by Knoffler, highly rec vs the less instructive Van Halen interview

NECESSITY IS THE SOURCE OF EDDIE VAN HALEN’S INVENTIONS
http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/category/events/video-archive/?postId=58386



^goosebumps @7+min & after, so it down, quiet piano/keyboards...took piano lessons in my early teens, used to be able to read sheet music, lost it all shortly after... building crescendo, faster & faster guitars w/my all time fav musical instrument, sax..for that hits the soul of the savage beast emotion, what I want to hear as I'm dying song. I'd take that low quality, not HD, sound because of the 'musicality' of the performance every time. Next best thing to real live performance that even the best home stereo can't reproduce quiet as well...unless you were the owner of this mega mansion, and could afford your very own FT live-in orchestra https://celebritiesnetworth.co/2018...es-its-price-from-350-million-to-245-million/


btw KC, since u like some classical, b4 my mom died, (she being my influencer into classical music) she recommended I go to the free practice orchestra sessions @the hollywood bowl

I'm sure it's the home stereo/headphones that has killed my hearing, not the college days rock concerts w/Eddie's Marshalls mod'd to hit level 15, beyond ST's 11. I remember all too well this concert will on acid(put that down to foolish youth, was over that shortly thereafter...and was a good thing)

http://www.vhnd.com/2014/09/23/van-halen-parachutes-into-anaheim-stadium-eddie-meets-sammy-hagar/
I may have been under the influence, but I never thought the parachute thing was anything more than a dumb stunt...guess I was just a precious/logical 'know it all' punk kid for the future internet forums mentality.

103ºF on the field, I was bout 200-300ft from the stage, slightly to the right in the image show 1/2 dwn the pg. Musta been 'peaking' during BS & VH, but while some of the crowd was 'spent' and left early,,,acid lasts a long, long time...remember watching Boston doing 'Don't Look Back' they were what I though an ultimate 'stadium sound' band, quite good for that type of venue...wouldn't care for them in smaller setting...'wall of sound', doesn't work so well. EVH's recollections of the period don't jive with mine, I knew full well who they were even then...and lookin over the SMCA concert lists from that time, I see he played @SMCA in '77...I saw TP & Heartbreakers 2x @SMCA, incl Runaway w/Del Shannon NYE '78/79.

So which of you are better engineers than those who are almost all over 50, can't hear anymore???
Audiophile or Audio-Fooled? How Good Are Your Ears?


4 out of 6, 'I love this song, I have to get this right'...'what?!?' <LMAO! 18k ears can't tell. "So much of listening is actually based on what you train your ears to hear" '4k notch 30db', Monitor speakers, 1980's Yamaha NS10, crappy speakers, but so many engineers use them?
but then again, we always have those 'old-farts' that inspire the interwebs disc forums 'debates'/flame throwing, lack of civility type threads/discussions...would you say that to them in person?
222 comments 'slug-fest' w/lousy wine analogies - https://hometheaterreview.com/remind-a-hipster-that-vinyl-still-sucks/ Ru that 'hipster' crowd? ;p

like this one^...vinyl is always more musical...except when the mastering messes up even 'new' vinyl...btw, don't have a player, still have my MF UHQR ver of ST's Crime of the Century I bought as a teenager late '70s @$50 retail list, when the 'standard' MF superdisc ver was $20, still had those uber irritating 'pops'/cracks...just fewer than norms, but what a sound...ferget digital, that was the best.


It's OT, but so many comments this thread on SQ dependent on source/quality of the mastering...this thread, food for thought...not really, always variables, always ppl have differing preferences..there is no one 'best' or correct, it's what sounds good to *you* that matters. ^245mil home, wine cellar auctioned for millions, still lacking the holy grail, '45 Romanee Conti, which recent sold for $1/2 mil/750ml bottle, 1of only 608 made.

Tell ya somethin else, when my mom got lung cancer, I gave her my cherished HD600's in 2001, she didn't know how much they cost me, wouldn't have accepted if she did. She knew I liked 'great' sound, so would have expected I spent more than $100, compared to the cheap On the ear's she was using for TV listening in her bedroom, but even with not much bass, no amplification(I had the org AA powered Headphone 'airhead'), it made TV shows, news, whatever sound ***much*** more clear& better quality to *her*; a total non-critical/non-audiofile listener...pretty lousy hearing by that age. This was when on forums, ppl would said a 300ohm HP couldn't possibly sound very good, non-amped...what's a good cheap set of cans to listen to a Sony desktop CRT TV, you could ask...my answer would be, don't skimp, go big, HD600s work just fine

 

[MulberryMadness]

Soundstage is wide, not deep, separation is very well done for a bluetooth headset.
Electric guitars have a similar but less satisfying crunch like the CL2 does.
Tuning is somewhat similar.
I have to listen to them with music I know better, don't have that much music on my phone. Everything is on the Sony DAP.

Edit: just wanna add, these are not for me. They are a Christmas gift, just didn't get here in time.
I am trying them out before off they go.

Assuming u saw the posts in the mega TW thread on these? Wonder if they need 200+hrs burn in, will get much better w/time, given not planar?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/goi...are-we-there-yet.861024/page-90#post-14547645
"
First impressions of the SOUND:
Good but not great. There's more clarity, a wider soundstage and tighter more impactful bass with the Sony WF-1000X. The first thing you notice is the mids, they're very present in the signature, female vocals sounded good. From memory I think I prefer the sound from the RHA wireless 750. I did like how older recordings like motown and jazz recordings sounded on the TrueConnect. I can't quite nail it, but there's something I just don't like about the sound in comparison to the Sony. I'm listening to music on the TrueConnect but i'm listening and toe tapping with the Sonys. I'm not versed enough in this hobby to fully describe it but it's almost like there's a veil over the vocals and the bass I felt was there but a bit uncontrolled at times, a bit boomy in fact on some tracks.
"

 

[Kitechaser]

Assuming u saw the posts in the mega TW thread on these? Wonder if they need 200+hrs burn in, will get much better w/time, given not planar?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/goi...are-we-there-yet.861024/page-90#post-14547645
"
First impressions of the SOUND:
Good but not great. There's more clarity, a wider soundstage and tighter more impactful bass with the Sony WF-1000X. The first thing you notice is the mids, they're very present in the signature, female vocals sounded good. From memory I think I prefer the sound from the RHA wireless 750. I did like how older recordings like motown and jazz recordings sounded on the TrueConnect. I can't quite nail it, but there's something I just don't like about the sound in comparison to the Sony. I'm listening to music on the TrueConnect but i'm listening and toe tapping with the Sonys. I'm not versed enough in this hobby to fully describe it but it's almost like there's a veil over the vocals and the bass I felt was there but a bit uncontrolled at times, a bit boomy in fact on some tracks.
"

Thank you for that. I would have to agree with this persons take on the truconnect.
Will try the 100 hours of burn in, but
these were supposed to be a Christmas present for someone else, but didn't get here in time. Just sent an email to RHA to ask what the bitrate is with bluetooth 5, and what codecs are being used.

Read your earlier post, I agree with almost all of it. Sound is in the ear of the beholder. End of story.
That's why I am not big fan of reviews, or rankings, or this or that anymore.
We can just try to describe what we are experiencing, but the description is never the described.
And what makes one person's experience more valid than the other??
You can get used to whatever sound you listen to over time, "good" or "bad". Whatever that means.
And this phenomena is not just limited to music.
Like I said earlier in a debate I was having with a real know it all( starts with a crin ends with an ackle), at the end of the day, you can have all the driver this driver that, HD this, 60000 dollar player, 200 speakers or what not, but what decides whether it is all worth it, are your two set of ears.
Does it sound good to you?
I am not a collectivist, or an authoratarian.
I hold my views strongly and resolutely. I change when I get information that contradicts my current views. I am not rigid. Having said that,
I am not interested in telling anyone else what they should do or like, buy or not, listen to, and I can only hope, they can respect my perspective as much as anyone else's. Not agree with it, but respect.
I am sure, you being around for much longer than I, know how the review "industry" works. A lot of the contentious know it all debates you have obviously read on the thread, are against that.
Some people, not all, act like they are the keepers of the light, and have to bring the gospel to us, the fallen and the lost.
Like I said, I am not a collectivist or an authoratarian, I don't need an intermediary between myself and my music.
I am capable enough to decide what sounds good to me.
Other may feel differently, and may capitulate to someone's brow beating and claims of superiority. I am not built that way.

 

[Kitechaser]

Assuming u saw the posts in the mega TW thread on these? Wonder if they need 200+hrs burn in, will get much better w/time, given not planar?

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/goi...are-we-there-yet.861024/page-90#post-14547645
"
First impressions of the SOUND:
Good but not great. There's more clarity, a wider soundstage and tighter more impactful bass with the Sony WF-1000X. The first thing you notice is the mids, they're very present in the signature, female vocals sounded good. From memory I think I prefer the sound from the RHA wireless 750. I did like how older recordings like motown and jazz recordings sounded on the TrueConnect. I can't quite nail it, but there's something I just don't like about the sound in comparison to the Sony. I'm listening to music on the TrueConnect but i'm listening and toe tapping with the Sonys. I'm not versed enough in this hobby to fully describe it but it's almost like there's a veil over the vocals and the bass I felt was there but a bit uncontrolled at times, a bit boomy in fact on some tracks.
"

To add, just took your quiz, got all 6 questions right. I am an audio engineer in the making too
I listen to my music at low volumes, so i am not blasting my ear drums, and losing bits of the frequency spectrum.
As far as the Rykodisc is concerned, I downloaded both the Rykodisc and the 1984 Germany masters last night, but haven't had a chance to listen to them.
Will do that soon.
Again, everything you have read on this thread, is us in words trying to describe what we are hearing, vocabulary is a tricky thing, if you take a deep dive into the linguistics of it all, it is more complicated that what it seems like on the surface. If someone else has a so called "super hearing", they will disagree with what is said, and that is okay.
But what is not okay, is when they come on here and deride us for our so called "damaged ears"
The cookie crumbles both ways.

 

[csglinux]

A big thanks to @Kitechaser for bringing his CL2s out to TSAV last week. We had a fun day listening to a ton of different audio gear. For those who haven't met @Kitechaser in person - he's a good guy - passionate about music and about his headphones - as one should be. He truly loves his CL2 and I can vouch that he isn't a shill for RHA

I was/am curious to understand why we can have such different preferences when it comes to sound signatures. I have a theory, which I'll get to later. First, here are (L&R-averaged) FR measurement comparisons of the CL2 tour unit and @Kitechaser's CL2, with the white curve being RHA's supplied measurements:

The legend shows:
1) RHA's reference measurements
2) Tour unit CL2 + RHA/Comply foam tips
3) Tour unit CL2 + silicone SpinFit tips
4) kitechaser CL2 + CA Cu cable + silicone Tennmak tips
5) kitechaser CL2 + CA Cu cable + RHA/Comply foam tips
6) kitechaser CL2 + Ag litz cable + RHA/Comply foam tips

Here are comparisons of minimum-phase impulse from @Kitechaser's unit and the tour unit:

For those that are interested in the measurement procedure and equipment, it's explained in more detail here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-measurements-on-a-headfi-budget.893084/. We used a portable rig at TSAV, measuring via an RTA (AudioTools FFT) and offline frequency-sweeps via REW (the results from each are identical for FR).

There are some small differences in the low-end which appear to be unit variance (mainly because @Kitechaser's CL2s had a slight channel imbalance in the low frequencies, with a little boost in the right channel). There's a spread of data at the higher-frequencies, mainly as a result of the different eartips used here (RHA/comply foam on both units; SpinFit Cp100 silicone on the tour unit and Spiral Dot silicone on kitechaser's unit). Normalized at 1 kHz, the mid-range (including the 2-5 kHz peak) is fairly consistent across L and R buds from the tour unit and @Kitechaser's unit and, using the same RHA/Comply foam tips, variance is pretty much within the +/-1 dB specified by RHA.

What was/is most fascinating to me is how @Kitechaser loves the CL2 signature, whereas to me, it sounds off. On the other hand, I love the KSE1500 and the Xelento signatures, but @Kitechaser thinks they sound off. My current theory is that the CL2 is going to be preferred by those with shorter-than-average ear canals. It turns out @Kitechaser and I actually have very similar tastes in FR when considering headphones that leave the ear canals open. We appear to have the exact same opinion on the Utopias (slightly harsh mid-range - Utopias have a peak at ~5.5 kHz). I also gave @Kitechaser a box full of earbuds (the type that don't seal in your ear canal) and just asked him to choose his favorite(s). These are the buds he listened to:

VE Monk+
Cypherus Campfred
Ty Hi-Z HM
Shozy Cignus
Shozy BK Stardust
Snow Lotus Mk I
ATH-C200ISBK
EMX-500
AK EKXS-500
Nicehck PK2
ToneKing TO200

Out of all those buds, there's either a common preference or a strange coincidence, because @Kitechaser's first and second favorite choices exactly matched mine: 1) Shozy BK Stardust, followed by 2) EMX500. (For those that care about math, the odds of making that choice randomly would be 1/110.) What makes the Shozy BK and the EMX500 stand out from the rest of my earbud collection is the fact that they're relatively flat, with no wild peaks or troughs anywhere in the FR. So for open ear canals, we seem to share a taste for relatively neutral sound signatures.

But the situation isn't the same with the ear canals occluded. I did a little experiment (apologies to @Kitechaser for me being slightly sneaky here!). I gave @Kitechaser my KSE1500 and, without telling him what was going on, asked him to choose his preference between two settings on the KSA DAC/amp unit. I'd created two user-defined parametric EQ profiles, number one being totally flat (i.e., the natural response of the KSE/eartip combination) and number two being a tuning as close as I could get to that of the CL2. For those that know the KSE1500's parametric EQ, these were the settings I used:

1: Shelf to 100 Hz, +3 dB
2: Wide window @ 4 kHz, +6 dB
3: Medium window @ 4 kHz, +6 dB
4: Shelf from 8 kHz, -6 dB

I couldn't get this 100% perfect, because the KSE1500 PEQ only gives you 4 windows and the maximum dB offset for each of the 4 regions in the KSE1500 EQ is only +/-6 dB and I needed a ~16 dB bump to match the CL2 at 4 kHz. I doubled-up two of the four PEQ slots at 4 kHz to try and get close as possible to the CL2's midrange bump, which then didn't leave me enough leeway to sufficiently match the CL2's treble roll-off. But it was hopefully close enough to give the flavor of the CL2:

With this set on the KSE1500, one can quickly hop back and forth between the default KSE (UD1) and "fudged CL2" (UD2) profiles. Interestingly, @Kitechaser preferred the UD2 setting. For me, no-EQ (UD1) was the clear winner. So what's going on?

My theory is that when the ear canal is occluded sufficiently, you eliminate the ~4 kHz resonance mode. This is why IEMs like Etymotic have a bump in that region - they only look flat after you add a diffuse-field compensation. If you have longer ear canals, proportionately less of the canal is being filled, and so you're already going to be getting a boost at those frequencies. I think this situation is analogous to the Yanny vs Laurel debate or the Shepard tone triad phenomena. There's no right or wrong here, because we can never really know how others perceive sound. If you want to get a good idea of whether you'd like a particular headphone before buying, you really need to know what shape FR curve(s) you like/dislike, bearing in mind that (without a somewhat arbitrary DFC) these aren't going to be the same when your ear canals are open and when they're occluded.

 

[Kitechaser]

I wanna thank @csglinux again for taking me along for a very very interesting day out in Torrance.
It was just a complete blast. He is just as passionate about music as I am, and probably more. Just good people, kind and very hospitable.
Much appreciated.
The only thing I would add is there are people on this thread that love both the KSE1500 and the CL2.
That one is a pickle
Then again, maybe not. Both are great iems.

 

[Tragic]

I sure am glad I have defective ear canals and/or RHA doesn't know how to properly "tune" earphones because I purely love my CL2's.

 

[geagle]

@csglinux very interesting read, thanks a lot for that.

 

[Kitechaser]

D

 

[Kitechaser]

I wanna add this to my experience with @csglinux I think given time I would get used to the KSE1500, 100-150 hours.
The difference between the CL2 and KSE1500 is shocking if you are exclusively used to one tuning or the other.
All my friends have had very positive auditions of the CL2, i don't think that would be the case with the KSE1500, from my perspective the elctrostat is an acquired taste.
If you pulled people off the street, I think most would prefer the CL2, I don't think it'd be close. It is more musical, and exciting of a tuning, but still very realistic. I know, sounds like a contradiction, but it's true.
I don't think either one of us is wrong or right, we are used to different signatures than each other when it comes to iems.
Brain burn in is very very real thing.
We both also really like the FLC8s, which is an iem. So don't know if ear differences are completely at play here.

 

[Duncan]

I wanna add this to my experience with @csglinux I think given time I would get used to the KSE1500, 100-150 hours.
The difference between the CL2 and KSE1500 is shocking if you are exclusively used to one tuning or the other.
All my friends have had very positive auditions of the CL2, i don't think that would be the case with the KSE1500, from my perspective the elctrostat is an acquired taste.
If you pulled people off the street, I think most would prefer the CL2, I don't think it'd be close. It is more musical, and exciting of a tuning, but still very realistic. I know, sounds like a contradiction, but it's true.
I don't think either one of us is wrong or right, we are used to different signatures than each other when it comes to iems.
Brain burn in is very very real thing.
We both also really like the FLC8s, which is an iem. So don't know if ear differences are completely at play here.

I personally just thought that the KSE1500 sounded dead, devoid of life... Might be argued that that is the golden goal for all of this , to have a perfectly flat response - but if that sucks the musicality out of the music, what's the point?

Even using the inbuilt EQ couldn't salvage them for me.

If I want analytical sound, I'll turn to my Laylas.