Have you ever listened to two identical IEMs side by side with different high end cables (one silver and one copper, for example)? If so, what did you notice?
I have done the test, but with cables of no more than 40-50€. The variations I heard I couldn't put down to auto-suggestion or real differences. I do not deny that there are differences. I deny that a cable is worth more than €50, and I deny that a €400 cable is better than a €20 cable.
Working in science all my life, I have learned not to underestimate how powerful the placebo effect can be. Just as I have learned that big claims (in this case I will say big prices) require big evidence.
I am simply saying that with physics in hand, it is impossible for me to make the claim that an exotic 200, 300, 500€ cable is better and sounds better than a 20, 50€ cable. There may be different nuances, in any case absolutely minimal. But better, directly, just because should be, I deny it.
I have done the test, but with cables of no more than 40-50€. The variations I heard I couldn't put down to auto-suggestion or real differences. I do not deny that there are differences. I deny that a cable is worth more than €50, and I deny that a €400 cable is better than a €20 cable.
Working in science all my life, I have learned not to underestimate how powerful the placebo effect can be. Just as I have learned that big claims (in this case I will say big prices) require big evidence.
I am simply saying that with physics in hand, it is impossible for me to make the claim that an exotic 200, 300, 500€ cable is better and sounds better than a 20, 50€ cable. There may be different nuances, in any case absolutely minimal. But better, directly, just because should be, I deny it.
I have a copper cable for $20 and a copper cable for $250 EA ARES S 8W and I can clearly hear the difference in sound and this difference is huge. There are several more cables from EA: CADMUS 8W and EROS S, they all sound different and I hear it.
This is not a placebo or self-hypnosis.
I have a copper cable for $20 and a copper cable for $250 EA ARES S 8W and I can clearly hear the difference in sound and this difference is huge. There are several more cables from EA: CADMUS 8W and EROS S, they all sound different and I hear it.
This is not a placebo or self-hypnosis.
That's your experience, and I respect that. But I need someone that show me with physics in hand how is it possible. And also I need someone to show me how that cable is worth 250€ (and it's somehow cheap, by looking other "aberrations" there)
That's your experience, and I respect that. But I need someone that show me with physics in hand how is it possible. And also I need someone to show me how that cable is worth 250€ (and it's somehow cheap, by looking other "aberrations" there)
I'd say it's no different to a £20 earphone versus a £200 earphone. Better components etc. I guess that is the physics, better quality copper or whatever the cable is made off etc etc
Saying that I'm on the fence with cables. I do think they make a difference however I wouldn't pay the prices that some do.
Example being my Rn6 earphones, the cable supplied is very good, well regarded by all accounts by those who know their cables. I tried a different cable and their was clear difference. Not enough to make the earphone rubbish but still a difference. However I tend to stick with stock cables and have only ever bought 1 or 2 cheaper cables to replace particuarly bad cables.
I have a copper cable for $20 and a copper cable for $250 EA ARES S 8W and I can clearly hear the difference in sound and this difference is huge. There are several more cables from EA: CADMUS 8W and EROS S, they all sound different and I hear it.
This is not a placebo or self-hypnosis.
I'd say it's no different to a £20 earphone versus a £200 earphone. Better components etc. I guess that is the physics, better quality copper or whatever the cable is made off etc etc
Saying that I'm on the fence with cables. I do think they make a difference however I wouldn't pay the prices that some do.
Example being my Rn6 earphones, the cable supplied is very good, well regarded by all accounts by those who know their cables. I tried a different cable and their was clear difference. Not enough to make the earphone rubbish but still a difference. However I tend to stick with stock cables and have only ever bought 1 or 2 cheaper cables to replace particuarly bad cables.
I could agree with you. But looking to drivers, for example, i can find easily an explanation to differences betweeen a 'good' driver and a 'not so good' driver. And those diferences can be measured using different analysers (also its posible to explain that a 'not so good' driver sounds better than a 'good' driver because of the tunning hands).
But i can show that the differences between a 6N copper cable and a 5N copper cable with the same characteristics (same diameter, same core number and same oxygen present) cannot be distinguished using an oscilloscope, conductivity analyzer or any other lab tool. This is my point.
Also, its curious that exotic materials, like rhodium, palladium... allways are good for the sound. Curious....
That's your experience, and I respect that. But I need someone that show me with physics in hand how is it possible. And also I need someone to show me how that cable is worth 250€ (and it's somehow cheap, by looking other "aberrations" there)
Former research physicist here. While digital signals should be less dependent of the cable, analogue signals are another matter entirely. The transmission of an analogue signal is frequency dependent, which is highly relevant to audio.
Some cable makers try to make the cable as transparent as possible. It can be very hard to compare such cables, as you need great gear and a very well trained ear to compare a decent transparent cable to an even more transparent one.
The other style of cable is one that deliberately distorts the sound to create a form of passive EQ. Materials, weave, soldering, wire thickness and more all play a part in the result. Of course there is no guarantee you will like the result. A decent silver cable can boost treble, a fat copper cable may boost mids.
Most cables are a combination of the two types, and honest makers might spend a lot of effort on getting just the right materials and construction to achieve a particular level of transparency and colouration. Of course that doesn’t mean it sounds better on your setup, or that you need to spend a fortune. It’s just one of the many ways to affect the sound you hear from an IEM.
It’s worth adding that there is a lot of bs spouted by some cable makers, and many cables are wildly overpriced. I’m certainly not defending any of that.
Former research physicist here. While digital signals should be less dependent of the cable, analogue signals are another matter entirely. The transmission of an analogue signal is frequency dependent, which is highly relevant to audio.
Some cable makers try to make the cable as transparent as possible. It can be very hard to compare such cables, as you need great gear and a very well trained ear to compare a decent transparent cable to an even more transparent one.
The other style of cable is one that deliberately distorts the sound to create a form of passive EQ. Materials, weave, soldering, wire thickness and more all play a part in the result. Of course there is no guarantee you will like the result. A decent silver cable can boost treble, a fat copper cable may boost mids.
Most cables are a combination of the two types, and honest makers might spend a lot of effort on getting just the right materials and construction to achieve a particular level of transparency and colouration. Of course that doesn’t mean it sounds better on your setup, or that you need to spend a fortune. It’s just one of the many ways to affect the sound you hear from an IEM.
It’s worth adding that there is a lot of bs spouted by some cable makers, and many cables are wildly overpriced. I’m certainly not defending any of that.
Thank you very much for your contribution. I appreciate it very much.
However, I remain sceptical. The prices are absolutely absurd and as you say, there is a lot of BS in this hifi world. I still remember the issue of directional cables.
Please, if you know any double-blind study analysing this issue, please let me know to see it. I'm interested
I could agree with you. But looking to drivers, for example, i can find easily an explanation to differences betweeen a 'good' driver and a 'not so good' driver. And those diferences can be measured using different analysers (also its posible to explain that a 'not so good' driver sounds better than a 'good' driver because of the tunning hands).
But i can show that the differences between a 6N copper cable and a 5N copper cable with the same characteristics (same diameter, same core number and same oxygen present) cannot be distinguished using an oscilloscope, conductivity analyzer or any other lab tool. This is my point.
Also, its curious that exotic materials, like rhodium, palladium... allways are good for the sound. Curious....
But that is my point, there is a difference in the quality of components used that contribute to the final sound, in the same way as bad vs good drivers do. I get your point about analyzing these differences but I guess for me I let my ears decide however like I say I'm also not convinced that paying hundreds and sometimes thousands makes it a worthwhile difference
Altohugh this is where the old 'law of diminishing returns' comes into play. Is my £1500 DAP really 10x better than a £150 DAP, proabably not but it is better, it depends how much the perosn wants ot outlay for their 'end game' sound
I get your point about analyzing these differences but I guess for me I let my ears decide however like I say I'm also not convinced that paying hundreds and sometimes thousands makes it a worthwhile difference
Altohugh this is where the old 'law of diminishing returns' comes into play. Is my £1500 DAP really 10x better than a £150 DAP, proabably not but it is better, it depends how much the perosn wants ot outlay for their 'end game' sound
Thank you very much for your contribution. I appreciate it very much.
However, I remain sceptical. The prices are absolutely absurd and as you say, there is a lot of BS in this hifi world. I still remember the issue of directional cables.
Please, if you know any double-blind study analysing this issue, please let me know to see it. I'm interested
Some of the pricing is dependent on availability. I imagine some of the wire in these cables is custom fabricated in very small quantities. Add some rare metals to the mix and you've got a pretty expensive cable run. If only one manufacturer is making a certain cable, with custom fittings and hand-assembled, then they can certainly charge whatever they want. Nobody is saying price = performance. But scarcity, appearance, quality, and sunk costs of R&D all come into play. If you don't want the cable, then they're are plenty of others out there that might suit your fancy instead.
In general, though, I've found the higher quality, thicker cables with more wires tend to have a fuller, clearer sound with a broader separation of instruments around the soundstage.
To make things more confusing, I've also heard thick cables that did not sound good at all. So there's more to it than just the physical size. Maybe that's why some folks just don't believe in cables at all.
Thank you very much for your contribution. I appreciate it very much.
However, I remain sceptical. The prices are absolutely absurd and as you say, there is a lot of BS in this hifi world. I still remember the issue of directional cables.
Please, if you know any double-blind study analysing this issue, please let me know to see it. I'm interested
Honestly, few people care enough to run such a study. And the fact that there is an audible difference between some cables is perfectly easy to demonstrate in person. Anything beyond that is just a matter of personal preference and decisions about value for money. I agree there is a lot of rubbish, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t truth too.
Bear in mind how non-audiophiles would look at disphragm materials and sizes, driver types, balanced sources, etc. Yet all of those are widely accepted as having an effect.
By all means enjoy the hobby however you wish - nobody should criticise you for using whatever cable you enjoy. But we really are not deluded or lying to you about cables having an effect.
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