[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog I think it's pretty hilarious that people on this site of all sites pretend to understand the mainstream market.

Many, many people who have come to Head-Fi jumped over from the mainstream market, and I doubt that we're all so disconnected from it that we don't have some notion of what is desired out there in the mainstream portable audio world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog Face it, we're mostly iconoclastic nerds of one kind or another, else we wouldn't be so involved in our friggin headphones and amps and stuff.

That's true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog Personally, I expect those new Grado's either will or won't be a big hit based largely on how competently the marketing is handled.

It would have to be a MASSIVELY competent marketing campain, much more massive than I think (without having any real information) Grado intends or is capable of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog There are many, many millions of iPods out there, and plenty of people who own them will be happy to spend $50 on a color-coordinated product that they identify as an upscale quality brand and which sound good to them. Why would anybody expect anything different?

I had never heard of Grado before doing a fairly in-depth search for headphones a little over a year ago. I have never talked to anyone in the outside world who recognized the name. Most people I come across in the outside world still think that everything Sony makes is excellent quality. Obviously, this is far from true, and has been far from true for a number of years now, but Sony worked long and hard to create the decent reputation that led to the undisplaceable myth. It may be possible for Grado solidify itself in the hearts of the mainstream, but even Grado might not consider it worth the effort and money just to sell an ugly pair of portable headphones to a bunch of idiots.

What's more, your argument banks on the fundamentally flawed notion that most iPod users can tell the difference between the stock ear buds and, frankly, anything else. For one thing, they would have to find fault with the ear buds just to go looking for something else. A) I don't see that happening very often, B) I don't think many of them are going to be willing to make the jump from free to $49, and C) I agree that the iGrado is ugly as sin and definitely won't be the first thing an iPod user reaches for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog I don't know why people here expect they will fail... (Do you realize what people pay for a favorite upscale brand of jeans?)

This, to me, is also flawed thinking. To get to the point where mainstream iPod users shell out $49 for a pair of headphones is an extremely tall order, IMO. Most goods that teens pay a premium for have an extraordinary amount of advertising behind them, and I'm truly just not sure how an ad for pretty ugly headphones is going to pop and sizzle and wake up the kids. I truly believe it is built into most people's minds that a pair of headphones costs around $15. When was the last time you let someone in on the fact that you've spent even $175 on a set of headphones? The few times I've done it I've literally blown people's minds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog When iPods were new, how many people here thought the iPod would take over the world? Precious few, I'll bet. My guess is that most of the inital commentary was about how inferior and hopeless they were.

I'd say you are on to something here. However, the iPod had a massive marketing campain behind it, AND it had an extremely simple user interface, AND it helped people imagine a gap in their hoarde of possessions and filled that gap quite nicely with something that was pretty much unlike anything they had ever had at that point. I do not think the iGrado is up to par with the iPod in this (or these) regard(s).

Anecdotal evidence: I tried to spoonfeed several portable headphone options to a proud user of TWO (2) different iPods (Mini and Nano). I explained to her that she could find really nice sound AND showed her pictures so that it would be clear that she could get matching color and good looks for around $40. I explained to her how awful the stock ear buds were, how silly it is that they just kind of "sit" in your ears, and how she was probably ruining her hearing trying to compensate for no seal whatsoever (not even that of an open-backed, portable headphone) with high volume. This is a girl who each year on vacation as a tradition buys herself a Coach purse at a minimum of $300. Believe me, her cash flows freely. She did not--I repeat, did not--show any interest whatsoever in my new-cans-for-the-iPod idea, and to this day uses her Nano "all the time" with the buds.

Case closed.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by noseallinit it's not just iPods, sound quality isn't a concern for one's that use MP3 files on MP3 players or is it? why do we have our portable headphones amps? what are we using to source these portable headphone amps? I know I have read that some still prefer their Portable CD and MiniDisc players to any MP3 player. I dunno about the other MP3 players but at least the iPods will hold AIFF and WAV files. isn't that as good as playing a CD? and if you have these files playing through quality products like our headphones amps that we cherish so much are we not getting quality sound? how many of the people here use portable players with portable headphone amps? what is your conclusion in sound quality over the players you have used with comparable files? as far as Grado I don't think they were ever out there to appeal to the masses like some companies. maybe the iGrado is different and it's a headphone for the masses but for some reason I don't think so. when I begin to see the iGrado in all the places that sale iPods like CircuitCity, BestBuy, WalMart, etc.. I'll believe it's there for the masses. the only reason it's getting so much debate is because it's got an iPod theme to it. the only reason the iPod gets so much slander is because it's made by Macintosh. it's like Auburn/ Alabama football! Chevy verses Ford! who really cares what another wants to buy, it's what makes you happy. I'm happy to see Grado making a portable headphone again!

There's nothing wrong with using mp3s with high quality headphones. I've used my STAX rig with 128kbps to 192kbps mp3s on my computer before and it's not as hellish an experience as people make it out to be. It was actually quite fun since I liked the music. Specifically mentioning the iPod implies the mainstream music audience that obviously doesn't give two craps about mp3 bit rates and sound quality in headphones.

 

[Meyvn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator What's more, your argument banks on the fundamentally flawed notion that most iPod users can tell the difference between the stock ear buds and, frankly, anything else. For one thing, they would have to find fault with the ear buds just to go looking for something else. A) I don't see that happening very often, B) I don't think many of them are going to be willing to make the jump from free to $49, and C) I agree that the iGrado is ugly as sin and definitely won't be the first thing an iPod user reaches for.

Your argument overall, to be sure, is very well constructed, and I agree with most of it. However, this one I do not particularly agree with. I regularly meet people who are, for one reason or another, dissatisfied with their iPod earbuds. In fact, I've met very few who are long-term iPod users that aren't dissatisfied with the 'buds. However, most of them do fall into two unfortunate camps: 1. The Get Over Its and 2. The ones that buy cheap replacements that are just more comfortable, or are sound isolating/noise cancelling. After having heard the difference, pretty much everyone I've allowed a listen is impressed, though this has typically been with my cheaper headphones. I genuinely believe if Grado got proper word of mouth marketing and/or pop culture publicity, they could use this as an opportunity to expand. If you can convince a person 1. That they need a product, and 2. That they can afford it, you can sell it to them. I think the first part is already done for a lot of people, they simply haven't been shown alternatives and why they're better, and that they're worth the money yet.

 

[russdog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by noseallinit it's not just iPods, sound quality isn't a concern for one's that use MP3 files on MP3 players or is it?

For many of us, yes it is. (Where have you been?)

 

[russdog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator What's more, your argument banks on the fundamentally flawed notion that most iPod users can tell the difference between the stock ear buds and, frankly, anything else... This, to me, is also flawed thinking. To get to the point where mainstream iPod users shell out $49 for a pair of headphones is an extremely tall order, IMO.

This site seems to attract folks who think they're better than everybody else. You're talking as if iPods are purchased by inferior life forms. There are many, many, many millions of iPod users. Pidgeon-holing them all as being crude heathens who have no sensibilities or sensitivity to sonics is nothing if not judgmental and close-minded. Grado doesn't need to sell to a hundred million iPod owners. Several hundred thousand will do very nicely for starters.

IMO, iPods have done more than any other technology or device to introduce large numbers of people to higher-quality sound. Many people have never been exposed to high-quality sound before. It doesn't mean they're idiots, it just means they've been doing other things. I think good, affordable cans for iPod users may have the effect of raising the bar from 128 files to 192 VBR files. The ambient level of listening quality is being increased by iPods, not hurt by it.

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn Your argument overall, to be sure, is very well constructed, and I agree with most of it. However, this one I do not particularly agree with. I regularly meet people who are, for one reason or another, dissatisfied with their iPod earbuds. In fact, I've met very few who are long-term iPod users that aren't dissatisfied with the 'buds. However, most of them do fall into two unfortunate camps: 1. The Get Over Its and 2. The ones that buy cheap replacements that are just more comfortable, or are sound isolating/noise cancelling. After having heard the difference, pretty much everyone I've allowed a listen is impressed, though this has typically been with my cheaper headphones. I genuinely believe if Grado got proper word of mouth marketing and/or pop culture publicity, they could use this as an opportunity to expand. If you can convince a person 1. That they need a product, and 2. That they can afford it, you can sell it to them. I think the first part is already done for a lot of people, they simply haven't been shown alternatives and why they're better, and that they're worth the money yet.

You know, you may well be right. Now that I think about it I do from time to time glance at Amazon user reviews of portable headphones and it seems like there is some dissatisfaction with junk-bud sound quality. Perhaps my experience has colored my perception. I did lend a pair of HD595s to the girl I mentioned before, and she actually loved them, keeping them for about a month and reporting from time to time how beautiful the sound was to her. Still, she was not interested in a $40 dollar pair of iPod-matching heapdhones... nor was she interested in IEMs. I also have a cousin who is as interested in music as anyone on this board, writes/records himself, and I couldn't convince him to upgrade either. It took someone else buying him a cheap pair of (Philips I think) cans for him to replace the ear buds.

To be fair, and to help you tear down a piece of my argument even further, I did recommend UM2s to a friend who bought them for his iPod. To maybe bolster my argument a little, I bought a pair of UM1s for my brother, who liked them, but still tried to introduce me to music by playing it through his laptop speakers (and listened to them contendedly himself).

In the spirit of this thread, I still think the iGrado look could prove a solid enemy to sales.

 

[noseallinit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooTemps That's the truth about human nature. It's hard to escape who we are after all. It's hard to get beyond our cultural barriers and really progress ourselves as a whole.

that it is! maybe one day..

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog This site seems to attract folks who think they're better than everybody else.

I do think I'm better than an Apple ear bud user, honestly. I mean, I spend most of my free time listening to music through headphones. I need to hold on to something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog ...inferior life forms... crude heathens...

These are some awesome terms. I may just edit my post to somehow include these phrases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog Grado doesn't need to sell to a hundred million iPod owners. Several hundred thousand will do very nicely for starters.

Very true. Still, I hold to the idea that most iPod users feel that the stock ear buds sound just fine. To be sure, this does make them sonically unsophisticated, and probably even crude heathens, but it doesn't necessarily bother me in the slightest. I just think it will be hard to sell them something they regard as expensive when they hear no problem with what they got for free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog IMO, iPods have done more than any other technology or device to introduce large numbers of people to higher-quality sound. Many people have never been exposed to high-quality sound before. It doesn't mean they're idiots, it just means they've been doing other things. I think good, affordable cans for iPod users may have the effect of raising the bar from 128 files to 192 VBR files. The ambient level of listening quality is being increased by iPods, not hurt by it.

This is a nice idea. I'm not sure if you've heard, but if all the talk about iPod/earbud-related hearing loss is true, the majority of iPod users better find those good, affordable cans in a hurry--before their hearing is so deteriorated that their newfound appreciation for high-quality sound is completely moot.

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog IMO, iPods have done more than any other technology or device to introduce large numbers of people to higher-quality sound. Many people have never been exposed to high-quality sound before. It doesn't mean they're idiots, it just means they've been doing other things. I think good, affordable cans for iPod users may have the effect of raising the bar from 128 files to 192 VBR files. The ambient level of listening quality is being increased by iPods, not hurt by it.

Crap, I forgot one thing. I don't want to edit my last post. That's not really fair.

I disagree that iPods have done more than any other technology or device to introduce large numbers of people to higher-quality sound.

For one, most people are using 128kbit files, for two, most of them are using ear buds. This is, I think, I significant step down from a CD in a $200 CD player. Significant.

On top of that, I think that at this point even audio tapes or CDs have introduced far more people to high-quality sound than the iPod, especially when you consider the fact that at two points in time pretty much everyone (except vinyl diehards, god bless 'em) who listened to music listened to either audio tapes or CDs.

I, for one, would rather listen to an audio tape on my old AIWA system than a 128kbit MP3 out of an iPod + ear buds.

 

[noseallinit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog For many of us, yes it is. (Where have you been?)

uh, I'm not really sure.. q:O)> listening to my trendy old portable mono 8-Track player? I dunno but it's cool man! cool.. q:O)>

 

[noseallinit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superpredator On top of that, I think that at this point even audio tapes or CDs have introduced far more people to high-quality sound than the iPod, especially when you consider the fact that at two points in time pretty much everyone (except vinyl diehards, god bless 'em) who listened to music listened to either audio tapes or CDs. I, for one, would rather listen to an audio tape on my old AIWA system than a 128kbit MP3 out of an iPod + ear buds.

yeah, god bless them vinyl die hards! q:O)>

I for one held out for the longest on buying CD's because at the time all the punk and alternative music I was collecting just could not be found on CD like LP. I could find killer and rare albums for as cheap as $3.00. I had a cool old $500 B&O Turntable with my old NAD 4ohm system. who would want anything like a CD player? Vinyl is all superior in sound compared to CD's! MP3 players and iPod's were not even a thought then..

it just about killed me to get rid of my 400 plus LP's, EP's and 45's of alternative music from the late 70's to early mid 80's when I decided to downsize my footprint. took me a few years to get over it for I had a descent collection of common and hard to find alternative recordings. the majority of the time I only used my Vinyl to record onto cassette for playback for I wanted to preserve the Vinyl's sound quality.I took great care of my vinyl! bought special sleeves to store the covers in, took the record shipping boxes and cut them down to make good fitting boxes with lids to keep the dust out of my Vinyl one more step. Now I even take me CD's out of their jewel case and put them in special sleeves bought from Bags Unimited that remind me of little 45's or LP's to save on space and I hate jewel cases. then I file them in a CD box so one extra time I can keep the dust and crap out.

now what a lot of people just don't get is that it takes a really good system to really reap the benefit of vinyl! vinyl only has a limited life span for each and every time you put that vinyl on the platter it degrades the quality of the sound a little. not to mention dust, static and the constant brushing and cleaning to get the dust, goobers and static out. I had a decent little system to play them on but now I don't miss them one bit(sometimes..) or the hassle it was to play them, to take care of them and the space it took to store them.

I live in a pretty trendy area and vinyl is still all the rage with some of the youth with them bragging about it's superior sound quality. spending top dollar on vinyl and playing it on cheap turntables like digging a nail down into it's grooves and not even sure how to handle the Vinyl leaving goober prints. then on top of it they want to convert it over to CD-R. what a laugh! q:O)>

you know like the analysis with the iPod and cheap ear buds the masses that listened to Vinyl in it's day listened to them on crappie turntables. and many great collectors of music! the same with Cassettes for they were mostly played on cheap systems by the masses. Store bought Cassettes were recorded on cheap media anyway. I would not buy them cause I could buy much better media and make quality recordings from my vinyl even if it had ticks and pops in the recording.

so where does this leave us? yawls beef is really with the iPod itself because it's a Macintosh product! because if it wasn't you would be speaking of all MP3 players in general. people use cheap buds with portable CD players too but ya don't mention them one bit either. not to mention how ugly most headphones are in general and especially most of the trendy street style behind the head bands. I mean most headphones are down right ugly period! and again the majority of people don't listen to quality stereos in the home so so much for classifying iPod users in general for it is the way the majority of people listen to their music to begin with be it MP3 players, CD, Cassettes or Vinyl.

wanna know what power is? Macintosh holds a very small percentage of the PC market. only a very small fraction of products made by Mac is on the market compared to what's really out there to be had in the PC and MP3 player market. not even 2 handfuls of products made by Mac is out there compared to all the companies and their products. I have never in me whole life heard the squawking and slander people give Mac products that's oh so inferior in the PC world. many people don't even call them MP3 players anymore, they call them iPods cause they could not even tell you the difference between an iPod and another brand of MP3 player. not to even begin to speak of all the 3rd party products made for iPods and I'll overlook the bad for the actual good products being made for them. now that's what I call power! cause if it wasn't you wouldn't be here to begin with squawking about the iPod and products made for it! q;O) you would be talking about MP3 players in general and the majorities listening pattern.

I dunno about the majority of MP3 players but at least on the iPod you can load them with AIFF and WAV files and if that is not the same quality listening as a CD then I dunno what is. from there it depends on the user be it the masses or someone that takes a little more pride in the music they listen to.

you can keep your old stretched out, heat effected, goober grabbing store bought cassettes played on your AIWA, you can have that scratched up, dust attracting, static popping warn out over played Vinyl on some half descent turntable for I have had it dealing with the old media formats. for all I care they can be tossed out with the 8-Track(I forgot they are trendy with some of the tragically hip too). I have to admit they could have dealt us better when it comes to CD's, DVD's, DVD-Audio, SACD's etc.. for one they should have put them in a protective housing like the MiniDisc. I try me best to treat them like I did me Vinyl and play them only when recording to keep the amount of handling low cause once again they have allowed us to be subject to scratches, goobers and such. and CD-R's are the worst! I'd much rather be listening to me music on MiniDisc or an MP3 player that allows me to play them in the higher quality files for they are not subject to the same abuse as all other media.

stop looking down your nose at the world, open your mind for a moment and think about it? who really cares what another buys for it's all in what makes the individual happy unless your so insecure that ya have to knock on others to make your own self feel good.

God Bless the simple man who can be happy listening to a pair of cheap headphones! q;O) for in the end it isn't gonna matter 2 hoots what you listen to on what. only the quality of your heart and how you treat others will matter!

 

[4metta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog This site seems to attract folks who think they're better than everybody else. You're talking as if iPods are purchased by inferior life forms. There are many, many, many millions of iPod users. Pidgeon-holing them all as being crude heathens who have no sensibilities or sensitivity to sonics is nothing if not judgmental and close-minded. Grado doesn't need to sell to a hundred million iPod owners. Several hundred thousand will do very nicely for starters. IMO, iPods have done more than any other technology or device to introduce large numbers of people to higher-quality sound. Many people have never been exposed to high-quality sound before. It doesn't mean they're idiots, it just means they've been doing other things. I think good, affordable cans for iPod users may have the effect of raising the bar from 128 files to 192 VBR files. The ambient level of listening quality is being increased by iPods, not hurt by it.

Ipods kick ass and the fact that some people just hate what's popular for the sake of hating the popular ain't gonna change that.

 

[4metta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by noseallinit ...so where does this leave us? yawls beef is really with the iPod itself because it's a Macintosh product! because if it wasn't you would be speaking of all MP3 players in general. people use cheap buds with portable CD players too but ya don't mention them one bit either. not to mention how ugly most headphones are in general and especially most of the trendy street style behind the head bands. I mean most are down right ugly period! and the majority of people don't listen to quality stereos in the home either so so much for classifying iPod users in general for it is the way the majority of people listen to their music to begin with be it MP3 players, CD or Vinyl. wanna know what power is? Macintosh holds a very small percentage of the PC market. only a very small fraction of products made by Mac is on the market compared to what's really out there to be had in the PC and MP3 player market. not even 2 handfuls of products made by Mac is out there compared to all the companies and their products. I have never in me whole life heard the squawking and slander people give Mac products that's oh so inferior in the PC world. people don't call them MP3 players anymore, they call them iPods cause many could not even tell you the difference between an iPod and another brand of MP3 player. not to begin to speak of all the 3rd party products made for them and I'll overlook the bad for the actual good products being made for them. now that's what I call power! cause if it wasn't you wouldn't be here to begin with squawking about products made for the iPod! q;O) you would be talking about MP3 players in general and the majorities listening pattern in general. I dunno about the majority of MP3 players but at least on the iPod you can load them with AIFF and WAV files and if that is not the same quality listening as a CD then I dunno what is. from there it depends on the user be it the masses or someone that takes a little more pride in the music they listen to...

LOL!!! Love it!

Sorry, after these two guys I can't say much more cause they just nailed it.

 

[creyc]

Original Poster: This is a very opinionated and un-objective analysis.

 

[kramer5150]

someone name me a headphone sold at CC, BB, Frys, target...etc... that met the following criteria:

sold for a "length" of time (say ~2-3 years)
$50 or more
was not isolating or noise canceling
was not "dolby surround"
was not "hyper-bass"... or "extra-bass"
was not wireless
was not fold-able

I still think the iGrado at $50 is over priced for the general consumer, given that it does not offer any of the "gimicky" features needed to succeed in this market segment.... I sincerely hope I am wrong though, and I end up eating my words.

The big unknown however is just how strong the "i-name" gimick will be. If John could break out and sell the cans at the apple store... THAT would be a gold mine IMHO.