[Triodemode]

   
It was my understanding (thus far) that, if a file can't be upsampled on the fly (like 48/96/192khz in foobar) or to get dsd playback via pcm on some devices, then another file format (container) like DoP is needed. I believe the DoP container is like pre-converting the file which can then be played back "natively" on the device while the Micro picks up the dsd info.
 
To my knowledge, the iDSD Micro doesn't write anything to the hard drive when upsampling lower res files.
 
I may try converting a few files to DoP and see how it works.

This is correct... DoP just wraps DSD in PCM markers during real time playback for use by DACs that cannot handle DSD directly, or in the micro's case the ability to handle 96 and 192khz resolutions.  I thought you were speaking previously about DoP as another format stored on your hard drive.  We are on the same page here.  
 
As an aside, my old windows XP duo core (2008 vintage) only hits 60% CPU with no stuttering while playing PCM over DSD512 with the micro!  I'm convinced that a clean and efficient OS is more important than sheer processing power at these DSD rates.   Windows 7 & 8 are just much more bloated resource hungry versions of XP IMO.

 

[Franatic]

For TheAttorney
"You mention ASDM7 modulator on HQPlayer. I can see an ASDM5 or DSD7, but not ASDM7. Is this a Beta version that has new options?"
 
I am using HQPlayer version 3.6 beta 4. Adding the modulator ASDM7 was part of the beta and is what made PCM to DSD work for me.
Sorry, I missed that first time you asked. The beta is here:

http://www3.signalyst.com/bins/HQPlayerDesktop3-setup-362b4.exe

 

[SonicWarrior]

My friend's budget is about $500. What would be the better option? Micro idsd or Nano idsd + micro ican. Portability is not a big concern as this is for home audio use.
 
P.S: I already own a micro idsd and am extremely happy with the purchase. I happened to listen nano idsd and was very impressed with the performance for it's price. So I was thinking if a slightly weaker DAC + stronger class A amp > stronger DAC + inbuilt slightly inferior (compared to class A) AB amp.Can't go for Micro dsd + Micro can due to budget constraints . I wanted to suggest something good for my friend and wanted an informed opinion.
 
Thanks for the help

 

[kapanak]

  My friend's budget is about $500. What would be the better option? Micro idsd or Nano idsd + micro ican. Portability is not a big concern as this is for home audio use.
 
P.S: I already own a micro idsd and am extremely happy with the purchase. I happened to listen nano idsd and was very impressed with the performance for it's price. So I was thinking if a slightly weaker DAC + stronger class A amp > stronger DAC + inbuilt slightly inferior (compared to class A) AB amp.Can't go for Micro dsd + Micro can due to budget constraints . I wanted to suggest something good for my friend and wanted an informed opinion.
 
Thanks for the help

What's your friend's headphones of choice? I'd say get a LH Labs GO 450 as DAC, and buy Asgard2 as amp. Both class A, both very high quality.

 

[ClieOS]

  My friend's budget is about $500. What would be the better option? Micro idsd or Nano idsd + micro ican. Portability is not a big concern as this is for home audio use.
 
P.S: I already own a micro idsd and am extremely happy with the purchase. I happened to listen nano idsd and was very impressed with the performance for it's price. So I was thinking if a slightly weaker DAC + stronger class A amp > stronger DAC + inbuilt slightly inferior (compared to class A) AB amp.Can't go for Micro dsd + Micro can due to budget constraints . I wanted to suggest something good for my friend and wanted an informed opinion.
 
Thanks for the help

 
I'll suggest your friend to wait for the iDAC 2. It has iDSD micro's DAC section and there is a chance he'll have enough money left for an iCAN.

 

[gr8soundz]

 
This is correct... DoP just wraps DSD in PCM markers during real time playback for use by DACs that cannot handle DSD directly, or in the micro's case the ability to handle 96 and 192khz resolutions.  I thought you were speaking previously about DoP as another format stored on your hard drive.  We are on the same page here.  
 
As an aside, my old windows XP duo core (2008 vintage) only hits 60% CPU with no stuttering while playing PCM over DSD512 with the micro!  I'm convinced that a clean and efficient OS is more important than sheer processing power at these DSD rates.   Windows 7 & 8 are just much more bloated resource hungry versions of XP IMO.

 
Yeah, all this conversion and upsampling can get complicated and I'm still learning.
 
You originally asked if I was "experiencing any degradation in having to use DoP to play these files in DSD?"
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but DoP is for DSD over PCM and those DSDs files would need to be converted to PCM for DoP playback on non-native DSD equipment (hence the new stored files). I'm using the idsd Micro to simply upsample native PCM files to DSD during playback (have little to no DSDs so far; still searching for my favorites).
 
Can't imagine why anyone would convert DSD to PCM then upsample them back to DSD through the Micro via PC (maybe at a higher rate?). I'd be concerned that the final upsample couldn't restore any losses or degradation caused during the original conversion.
 
If you already have files in DSD format on a PC, think it's best just to play them natively rather than trying to upsample those too. If I could find my favorite music in sacd/dsd formats, I may never have gotten a Micro and instead used something less expensive for native DSD playback.
 
Also, I agree that less OS bloat is a plus (helps reduce jitter/stutter/etc.) but XP is just too outdated for me. The Audiophile Optimizer uses Windows Server 2012 R2 because it reduces that OS's services down to 5 to 7. I've gotten Windows 8 down to around 20 (from well over 100) and it improved sound but still keeps the PC usable for browsing and games (not sure XP or Sever 2012 could do all that). 

 

[ClieOS]

   
... Correct me if I'm wrong, but DoP is for DSD over PCM and those DSDs files would need to be converted to PCM for DoP playback on non-native DSD equipment (hence the new stored files). I'm using the idsd Micro to simply upsample native PCM files to DSD during playback (have little to no DSDs so far; still searching for my favorites).
...

 
That will be wrong.
 
DSD-over-PCM means disguising DSD files inside a PCM wrapper so it can be send over USB connection. When USB is first conceived, the USB governing organization does not implement a way for DSD files to be send over via USB (as they never thought there is such a need, since PCM has been the standard for PC audio from early one). So to solve the problem, some clever soul figure out that, by putting DSD files inside a PCM outer shell, the USB connection will have no problem sending it over to the USB DAC. Then the USB DAC will ignore/remove the PCM shell and just decode the DSD data inside as native DSD file. Therefore DoP doesn't have any DSD-to-PCM conversion. Think of it as this: you need to give a CD fuill of rock music to a guy in the house, but the gate keeper says you are not allowed to bring it in. So instead you packed the CD inside a CD case that labeled as classical music so you can pay through the gate. At the end, your friend still get the rock music he wanted, even though it is not inside the original case.
 
Also, you don't actually 'upsample' PCM to DSD, or 'downsample' from DSD to PCM - you are actually converting, and the process may not be totally lossless. I'll suggest you read this for more detail:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi-audiostream-addendum-pcm-vs-dsd

 

[Triodemode]

   
Yeah, all this conversion and upsampling can get complicated and I'm still learning.
 
You originally asked if I was "experiencing any degradation in having to use DoP to play these files in DSD?"
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but DoP is for DSD over PCM and those DSDs files would need to be converted to PCM for DoP playback on non-native DSD equipment (hence the new stored files). I'm using the idsd Micro to simply upsample native PCM files to DSD during playback (have little to no DSDs so far; still searching for my favorites).
 
Can't imagine why anyone would convert DSD to PCM then upsample them back to DSD through the Micro via PC (maybe at a higher rate?). I'd be concerned that the final upsample couldn't restore any losses or degradation caused during the original conversion.
 
If you already have files in DSD format on a PC, think it's best just to play them natively rather than trying to upsample those too. If I could find my favorite music in sacd/dsd formats, I may never have gotten a Micro and instead used something less expensive for native DSD playback.
 
Also, I agree that less OS bloat is a plus (helps reduce jitter/stutter/etc.) but XP is just too outdated for me. The Audiophile Optimizer uses Windows Server 2012 R2 because it reduces that OS's services down to 5 to 7. I've gotten Windows 8 down to around 20 (from well over 100) and it improved sound but still keeps the PC usable for browsing and games (not sure XP or Sever 2012 could do all that). 

As I stated, DoP just places PCM markers in the stream to be identified by DACs that require it, there is no conversion to PCM.  I was just curious if you may have noticed any sound quality difference when selecting DoP in ASIO settings playing through the micro.
 
You would still need the micro to play all those SACD ISO or DSD files, and finding something less expensive with the same sound quality would be difficult.  And yes, sound wise it would be counter productive to convert DSD to PCM.

 

[gr8soundz]

 
DSD-over-PCM means disguising DSD files inside a PCM wrapper so it can be send over USB connection. When USB is first conceived, the USB governing organization does not implement a way for DSD files to be send over via USB (as they never thought there is such a need, since PCM has been the standard for PC audio from early one). So to solve the problem, some clever soul figure out that, by putting DSD files inside a PCM outer shell, the USB connection will have no problem sending it over to the USB DAC. Then the USB DAC will ignore/remove the PCM shell and just decode the DSD data inside as native DSD file. Therefore DoP doesn't have any DSD-to-PCM conversion.

 
As stated, I'm still (always) learning. I knew about the DSD flags inside PCM for playback but wasn't aware DSD posed so many issues for the usb spec. Seems I mistook "native" DSD playback over usb to mean just that when it may mean dacs like the idsd micro simply don't mess with the file and flags during playback.
 

 
As I stated, DoP just places PCM markers in the stream to be identified by DACs that require it, there is no conversion to PCM.  I was just curious if you may have noticed any sound quality difference when selecting DoP in ASIO settings playing through the micro.
 
You would still need the micro to play all those SACD ISO or DSD files, and finding something less expensive with the same sound quality would be difficult.  And yes, sound wise it would be counter productive to convert DSD to PCM.

 
Just tried switching foobar's dsd playback method to dop marker and it would no longer upconvert even a 44khz file. So I went back to asio native. I haven't tried all settings combinations though and I originally set foobar according to ifi's instructions for mp3 to dsd.

 

[Triodemode]

   
As stated, I'm still (always) learning. I knew about the DSD flags inside PCM for playback but wasn't aware DSD posed so many issues for the usb spec. Seems I mistook "native" DSD playback over usb to mean just that when it may mean dacs like the idsd micro simply don't mess with the file and flags during playback.
 
 
Just tried switching foobar's dsd playback method to dop marker and it would no longer upconvert even a 44khz file. So I went back to asio native. I haven't tried all settings combinations though and I originally set foobar according to ifi's instructions for mp3 to dsd.

You could be right...  I haven't tried the DoP option myself with the micro so not even sure if it would work.  So now just for kicks (not sound quality) I am wondering if the micro is even able to convert on the fly 96 and 192khz to DSD?  As the PDF you referenced indicated, the micro may only convert 44.1 and it's multiples to DSD. 

 

[semeniub]

 
You could be right...  I haven't tried the DoP option myself with the micro so not even sure if it would work.  So now just for kicks (not sound quality) I am wondering if the micro is even able to convert on the fly 96 and 192khz to DSD?  As the PDF you referenced indicated, the micro may only convert 44.1 and it's multiples to DSD. 

I use HQPlayer on OSX to on-the-fly convert all PCM sample rates to DSD256 and send this to the Micro iDSD via DOP. Works like a treat - no issues whatsoever regarding non 44.1 and multiples.

 

[iFi audio]

 
You could be right...  I haven't tried the DoP option myself with the micro so not even sure if it would work.  So now just for kicks (not sound quality) I am wondering if the micro is even able to convert on the fly 96 and 192khz to DSD?  As the PDF you referenced indicated, the micro may only convert 44.1 and it's multiples to DSD. 

 
Hi,
 
The micro iDSD does not convert anything "on the fly" so to speak.
 
The PC is the host. The dac, the micro iDSD just handles the music data "as is".
 
Hence the LED just registers what is being rec'd at the input from the host.
 
All the discussion relates to what the host is doing be that JRMC, HQ Player or iTunes.
 
We receive a fair few questions about the LED being incorrect but it is "only the messenger". And as there is one LED, the colour represents the signal coming in.
 
Cheers.

 

[Triodemode]

   
Hi,
 
The micro iDSD does not convert anything "on the fly" so to speak.
 
The PC is the host. The dac, the micro iDSD just handles the music data "as is".
 
Hence the LED just registers what is being rec'd at the input from the host.
 
All the discussion relates to what the host is doing be that JRMC, HQ Player or iTunes.
 
We receive a fair few questions about the LED being incorrect but it is "only the messenger". And as there is one LED, the colour represents the signal coming in.
 
Cheers.

Thank you for the clarification iFi...  Can you elaberate as to why the micro will not convert 96 or 192khz when configured for PCM to DSD using Foobar as stated at the bottom of your technical tutorial below? 
 
http://www.hificlube.net/download.ashx?media=/media/194651/Foobar2k%20MP3%20to%20DSD512.pdf
 
Also, I am in the same situation as gr8soundz in not being able to get DoP to work with Foobar when configured using the instructions below.  Any insight as to why?
 
http://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/data/DoPInstructions_Foobar.pdf

 

[iFi audio]

 
Thank you for the clarification iFi...  Can you elaberate as to why the micro will not convert 96 or 192khz when configured for PCM to DSD using Foobar as stated at the bottom of your technical tutorial below? 
 
http://www.hificlube.net/download.ashx?media=/media/194651/Foobar2k%20MP3%20to%20DSD512.pdf
 
Also, I am in the same situation as gr8soundz in not being able to get DoP to work with Foobar when configured using the instructions below.  Any insight as to why?
 
http://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/data/DoPInstructions_Foobar.pdf

 
Hi,
 
The True Native is why we chose this Burr-Brown chip. It is the raison d'etre of the nano/micro iDSD, iDAC2 and Retro Stereo 50.
 
If it receives 16/44 it stays 16/44 or DSD512 it stays DSD512, it just leaves it alone.
 
> Can you elaberate as to why the micro will not convert 96 or 192khz when configured for PCM to DSD using Foobar as stated at the bottom of your technical tutorial below? 
 
It doesn't convert. Even with this tutorial!
 
Now, as you wish to try MP3 transcoded (read: converted) to DSD512, then as we recommend in this tutorial, it is performed in the host domain. That is, the realm of the source, the PC. This has obvious benefits.
 
 
>Also, I am in the same situation as gr8soundz in not being able to get DoP to work with Foobar when configured using the instructions below.  Any insight as to why?
If the LED is not showing what you expect, then the micro iDSD is informing you the PC is not sending out what you think it is sending out.

 
DoP on Foobar is not straight forward because Foobar is open source freeware and as such, we have noticed "glitches" with it when we tested it on different PCs. One particular PC was a HP Pavillion DV5 - in the end, we had to
 
1. Totally remove/delete Foobar and its plugins
2. CClean (https://www.piriform.com/ccleaner) and
3. Reinstall Foobar from scratch and the foo driver.
 
In our experience, Foobar and its plugins are not as "rock solid" as say JRMC or iTunes. Even using this foo driver running under JRMC things are never 100% stable as we have come across glitches.

 
But you can open a support ticket and send us screenshots - the Support Ticket team can try their best to look through your settings to see if there is anything obvious. But the above was our solution for MP3 > DSD256/512 glitches when we installed it on different PCs. Some worked straight away, some didnt.
 
http://support.ifi-audio.com/index.php
 
There are also FAQs there too.
 
Cheers

 

[gr8soundz]

  ......MP3 transcoded (read: converted) to DSD512.....

 
That's the correct word!
 
Thanks for clearing up so much long-winded confusion.