[mvvRAZ]

Deleted, figured it out

 

[makatech]

Not at all. I spend quite a bit of time at ASR and I do not agree at all that all reviews are negative, there are many positive reviews. If the device measures poorly across enough domains it will receive the appropriate negative review. The iFi iOne also measured very poorly, but I still enjoyed the sound. The Burr Brown that iFi use seem to be very relaxed in their implementation so for some listeners it will be a little smooth sounding, but for others they will characterize the sound as grain and fatigue free. It is all personal preference no right or wrong. I also owned the iDSD Nano and very much liked it. I do think that sometimes the poor measurements are simply from sloppy engineering and while the results may not always be audible companies should do a better job. ASR has found many products where the issues were simply sloppy engineering that was easily avoided.

Rather than getting our noses out of joint because ASR finds technical issues with the brands and products we like and own we should thank them for revealing correctable issues. If you don't hold companies accountable they will simply repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Look at Schiit. They had several terrible reviews at ASR, and deservedly so as the issues were all avoidable. Since being publicly called out by ASR Schiit is on a major tare putting out really great products that also measure extremely well. The moral of the story is that Schiit could and should have been doing better, but to their credit and extreme respect to them for doing so, they upped their game. I have more respect for Schiit now, not less, and I am more inclined to buy their products now, not less. With iFi, until I start seeing some technical reviews from ASR demonstrating that the issues that are easily corrected are, I do have a little hesitation. In my opinion sounding good is not enough, if the engineering solutions are there and the devices can also measure better than that should be the goal. IMO.

Well, I have been writing it before but I will clarify. Some factors irritating me about the Zen Dac review.

1. Ok, Amir didn't like how the Zen Dac is looking but I'm not sure I want this personal subjective view in a review on ASR. This is not a big thing though.
2. I believe he was only testing it usb powered even though iFi has been clearly stating it may not deliver fully up to specs running usb powered (power, noise etc).
3. Don't think he tried it with 5.3c firmware which would have been a nice comparison (not necessary but giving the review more value).
4. Amir also ventilating his opinions on the review section on Amazon which I find debatable.
5. Zen Dac is providing good value with balanced in and balanced out but I felt Amir somehow managed to change/turn this into something negative because of the 4.4 pentaconn connections. I agree XLRs would have been more convenient but I feel he is exaggerating this, turning a really good feature into something bad?
6. Amir seem to be really negative about Burr-Brown DAC chips in general, he is even suggesting iFi should switch to ESS or AKM IC chips? (Thorsten Loesch & John Curl, are you listening?) It's his personal view and we'll have to accept this but again I feel this is being exaggerated, heavily weighted.
7. Zen Dac is an entry level dac/amp but Amir is being really, really tough in this review, perhaps too tough?

My own personal comment: If we are not able to hear the poor measurements by ear it makes it a bit complicated and confusing I think. For some people (audiofiles) it may be obvious, clear and logical but for me as a newbie I find it a bit confusing. "This unit is having terrible measurements but it's still nothing you would notice, it's not audible by ear."

Looking at the big number of awards iFi has been receiving for the Zen Dac it seems like the review from ASR didn't matter much or anything at all (which also is a bit interesting).

A couple of these awards pretty important in this industry?

Myself I am pretty happy iFi is doing their own thing, boring if all amps/dacs sounding too similar?

Will be interesting to see what DAC chip they will use in the future though. I assume Burr-Brown is coming in new versions as well though.

 

[Sonic Defender]

@makatech First things first, know that I am a fan of iFi and I want them to continue and make this hobby better which they do. About Amir, do you realize just how extremely qualified he is? If not I suggest that you read about his background. The dude is an actual expert with extremely deep and broad experience. He is eminently qualified to contribute what he does. There is a reason that companies like Denon for example have actually thanked him for his technical detective work finding their engineering issues. Next, his equipment and skill using the equipment for testing are both top notch.

Beyond that, the targets he evaluates and tests are not simply his opinion, ASR as a community is packed with technical and industry experts so his work is continually peer reviewed. Many of the awards that you talk about are simply non-technical design and listener opinion based awards. I am not saying they are not without value, but we are not comparing apples to apples here. What Amir is doing with ASR is making it difficult for companies to hide sloppy and lazy engineering that they can sneak buy consumers because we don't have the knolwedge, skills or equipment to detect when they are simply getting by with good enough. Amir isn't saying all of the issues are audible, in fact he clearly will point out when a criterion he is critiquing is not audible, but nonetheless an example of sloppy engineering. Thanks to his work we now see companies that work with ESS DAC chips being able to correct the ESS hump. If it wasn't for Amir and his peers at ASR probably nobody would bother even though the hump is possibly audible.

What Amir is doing is telling companies who use all kinds of fancy and slick marketing hype to sell their products to put as much attention into the engineering details as they do their marketing material. The iOne is a great little device, but some of the issues Amir pointed out are things that could be solved, and some would argue with it and other products should have been solved before leaving the development bench.

People should stop slagging him and the objectivist community because they are out there making companies improve the products you are buying so perhaps people should be saying thank you rather than getting defensive. I know I did. I owned the very expensive NAD M51 DAC, rather loved it. I had to suck it up when it didn't measure nearly as well as I hoped it would. I didn't get mad at Amir and his measurements, rather they helped liberate me as I am now very happy to be using much less expensive DACs because Amir put them to the test and demonstrated how technically proficient they were and why they deserved my money. The truth hurts, just be glad somebody is out there fighting through all the marketing hyperbole and pointing out to manufactures where they could improve. I for one am extremely grateful for ASR and Amir.

 

[emilsoft]

Let me understand this.. We lose 3.5mm line in and coaxial out (part of the idsd swiss army knife package), we gain pentacon and blue color, price is increased...? I really would have liked it to retain the same features - I don't have an additional amp lying around and would have liked to use this as a headamp with my turntable.

In any case I'm keen to understand the sound quality/tone difference vs original micro idsd black. Where is my extra money going

 

[intoitreviews]

This is interesting; except no balanced out as well!?

 

[gikigill]

Let me understand this.. We lose 3.5mm line in and coaxial out (part of the idsd swiss army knife package), we gain pentacon and blue color, price is increased...? I really would have liked it to retain the same features - I don't have an additional amp lying around and would have liked to use this as a headamp with my turntable.

In any case I'm keen to understand the sound quality/tone difference vs original micro idsd black. Where is my extra money going

Precisely this, the existing Black Label can replace multiple devices on a desk. Now you need a separate portable amp and another gadget for optical out in certain cases.

Less utility for more money. I'll be replacing the battery of my iDSD Black Label iMicro when the time comes instead of buying this.

 

[emilsoft]

Precisely this, the existing Black Label can replace multiple devices on a desk. Now you need a separate portable amp and another gadget for optical out in certain cases.

Less utility for more money. I'll be replacing the battery of my iDSD Black Label iMicro when the time comes instead of buying this.

If the sound quality is seriously increased - like 30-50%, then I'd begrudgingly consider it, otherwise it's a bad value proposition. So far I've read some technical jargon but how does it sound - does it have a wider soundstage, a sweeter tone, a more resolving dac stage, darker background, less digital sounding? I found the idsd micro black OK sounding, but there was a distinct U shaped tone to it where I felt the treble had bit of an annoying tizz (compared to all my other sources), so I didn't get it.. instead I got the nano idsd black which seemed a bit more relaxed/neutral... however the nano idsd sounds a bit crappy/digital when driven direct from computer USB.. it really needs the iUSB to clean up it's act. The micro idsd black also had this issue a bit, direct from USB is not so spectacular... so there is a lot of space for improvement i think especially if we lose the swiss army knife features. I urge everyone to be very critical of the sound quality and to expect significant improvements for the money that are easily discernible, especially if running it directly from USB computer source without any iUSBs decrapifiers.

 

[qsk78]

To me the micro idsd bl is not U shaped at all.
To me the main problem with the micro BL was/is the treble quality...considering the price of $599 it is ok anyway.
If the Signature offers an improvement in this area then I'm sold)

 

[emilsoft]

To me the micro idsd bl is not U shaped at all.
To me the main problem with the micro BL was/is the treble quality...considering the price of $599 it is ok anyway.
If the Signature offers an improvement in this area then I'm sold)

I heard it like that perhaps because of the treble being a bit harsh/pronounced but also having a good bass oomph.. but yes i agree the treble needs refinement.. things have come a long way in the last few years - my Sony ZX507 out resolves and provides a more refined and analogue sound to ifi black series (even when paired with iUSB), and the Fiio M11 Pro has a super clean, smooth mids and massive sound (even if it's a bit forward sounding demanding attention) , anyway it's performance is similar to a competitive large desktop setup; even if it is a DAP, it can be used like the ifi idsd black: it has USB dac, line out, powerful/clean THX headphone out (not as powerful as idsd black, but because it's THX there's no shortage of oomph in balanced out), digital coaxial out. It comes in roughly at the same price as the black signature.. so, yeah that's why my expectations are very high for the ifi, it needs to blow my socks off sound quality wise if I'm to spend that kind of cash in 2020.

 

[Baten]

To me the micro idsd bl is not U shaped at all.
To me the main problem with the micro BL was/is the treble quality...considering the price of $599 it is ok anyway.
If the Signature offers an improvement in this area then I'm sold)

As long as you don't use BitPerfect, I'm sure signature will be better

 

[technobear]

As long as you don't use BitPerfect, I'm sure signature will be better

Yeah, but bit-perfect is where the iFi DACs sound their best, measurements be damned.

I personally thought the GTO filter was a backward step and took all the life and involvement out of the music. I went back to the 5.2 firmware on iDAC2 and iDSD and normal service was resumed. With 5.2 they play close to the RME ADI2-DAC.

 

[makatech]

@makatech
"Long post about Amir and ASR"

Great post and good/important for me getting the whole picture. I am deeply impressed by the effort and work from Amir and you are right, it's good for this industry and I am grateful as well.

I still don't think the Zen Dac review is his best review/work though and that's the only single point I am trying to make.

 

[makatech]

Yeah, but bit-perfect is where the iFi DACs sound their best, measurements be damned.

I personally thought the GTO filter was a backward step and took all the life and involvement out of the music.

Hmmm, extremely strong words there, I will have to play around now with older firmware versions. 5.2 has no MQA support though. (I am a Tidal Hifi user)

 

[Sonic Defender]

Great post and good/important for me getting the whole picture. I am deeply impressed by the effort and work from Amir and you are right, it's good for this industry and I am grateful as well.

I still don't think the Zen Dac review is his best review/work though and that's the only single point I am trying to make.

Thanks, and I do agree that sometimes, there are better reviews that come from Amir. I'm pretty sure that I read the Zen DAC review and it sounds like I should read it again. It is also impressive to me when I meet members such as yourself who clearly keep an open mind rather than simply reacting emotionally and seeing every difference of expressed opinion as a need to battle and defend, becoming entrenched even deeper.

This emotional flexibility in my experience is a very good thing and I try to practice it myself. I'm almost at 12000 posts here and you will find many instances where I have had to admit that I was wrong, misinformed, being more forceful than required etc. Anyway, I just really like seeing others who practice keeping an open mind which on the Internet seems more challenging as this somewhat anonymous space allows for some very unfiltered and bold behaviour, way more than you find with in-person interactions.

And indeed, really good for the industry that Amir is out there. He has recently uncovered some pretty flawed work by FiiO, another darling of head-fi and a company I also really like and have supported. This is very likely to lead to much better attention to engineering detail by FiiO as they know that Amir and ASR have reach and influence among their customers and shouldn't be ignored. Same goes for iFi. We all know they can produce brilliant products that also will measure well, the two ends are not mutually exclusive and as long as the discussions are in public and respectful, likely iFi will also address what they need to. As I said, I am actually an iFi fan and I have a great deal of respect for what they bring to the community. I only wish the best for them as a commercial venture, but I also want the best for all of us and that means gear that measures as well as the marketing blurbs read.

 

[Baten]

Yeah, but bit-perfect is where the iFi DACs sound their best, measurements be damned.

I personally thought the GTO filter was a backward step and took all the life and involvement out of the music. I went back to the 5.2 firmware on iDAC2 and iDSD and normal service was resumed. With 5.2 they play close to the RME ADI2-DAC.

I 100% agree! But the person in question talked about treble quality and NOS/BitPerfect will only make that worse I personally like warmpoo sound signature