iFi audio iDSD Signature - The saga continues!
Jun 14, 2021 at 5:05 AM Post #1,456 of 2,172
The Pro iDSD is no OTL tube amp. The influence of the tubes is quite small. I changed the stock tubes to some better but the difference between tube mode and SS mode was quite small.
Yes, Pro iDSD has 4 BB DAC chips, but the chip and how many is not the important part ... how the DAC chip(s) are impemented is much more important. The micro iDSD BL has the same 2 BB DAC chips as the Signature, but both devices sound totally different.

ifi's Zen DACs and the micro iDSD BL have the "normal known" smooth and warm ifi sound that a lot of people really like. But there are other DAC in ifis lineup with BB DAC chips which sound different, more neutral/linear, which I like much more. And the Signature is one of those :wink:
Hi,
How would you compare the bass of the BL vs the signature, especially with the xbass activated?
 
Jun 14, 2021 at 5:30 AM Post #1,457 of 2,172
Hi,
How would you compare the bass of the BL vs the signature, especially with the xbass activated?
The Xbass on the Signature is better implemented. More structure and quality.
And I think (out of memory) that the Xbass is more focused in the deeper area of the bass on the Signature and on the BL the mid bass is affected as well.
Without Xbass, the BL has quite a small amount of bass more, but it is really not much.
 
Jun 14, 2021 at 6:27 AM Post #1,458 of 2,172
The micro iDSD BL has the same 2 BB DAC chips as the Signature, but both devices sound totally different.

Exactly :wink:

ifi's Zen DACs and the micro iDSD BL have the "normal known" smooth and warm ifi sound that a lot of people really like. But there are other DAC in ifis lineup with BB DAC chips which sound different, more neutral/linear, which I like much more. And the Signature is one of those :wink:

I agree, iDSD Signature still sounds like an iFi product but less so than say iDSD BL.
 
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Jun 17, 2021 at 7:21 AM Post #1,459 of 2,172
Some of my thoughts on digital filters

Hello everyone,

I acquired my iDSD Signature three weeks ago and have had extensive listening and testing within these weeks. I know it is down to everyone’s preference of listening to music that people may find some digital filters are superior to the others and vice versa. Before I started, FYI - I only trust my ears and am not impressive with measurements so much.

My gears in testing digital filters:

- Fiio M11 pro è Signature è headphones (Senn HD650/Shure SRH1840/Hifiman Sundara (bal) / IE800s (bal)/ K3003/Ex1K/Sony M9 (bal)).

I also have two options in the DAP: using NeutronMP to upsample my music to 384 kHz/768 KHz (FW5.2/FW5.3) or keep the music as is before loading to the Signature.

- When upsampling music, it seems Minimum Phase is best to me. Sound is analogous, a tad relaxed and seems to be more spacious than Bit Perfect. This is useful when I feel stressed/tired or before my bed time.

- Without upsampling music, Bit Perfect is better IMHO.

GTO filter (FW5.3c): I have searched and found a lot of useful information on GTO filter on the Internet including iFI’s GTO whitepaper. Here I just let the NeutronMP follow the music source for GTO to exposes its full potential/ benefits. With GTO filter, the sound is like life, real, not far or near, not over holographic, just what music composers intended what they want me to hear. I don’t know why, but maybe it’s just placebo effect while many people including head-fiers are not convinced on GTO filter’s benefits. I thought I had to test this special feature. And here is what I found.

Although someone mentioned on this forum that GTO replaces both Bit Perfect and Minimum Phase. I had a wonder why people dislike it while iFI’s technical analyses are rather logical and persuasive. Still, it is correct that the DAC first upsamples all music before processing. On iFI’s GTO whitepaper, GTO filter replaces MP which I supposed this may imply this filter is fully activated as intended when the switch is at Minimum Phase position, not the Bit Perfect. And I found differences: on Bit Perfect, with GTO filter, the sound is weird with very tight and fast transients, “no soul”. On Minimum Phase, all sound comes natural, coherent while voice and instruments are prominent like life.

Conclusion: I am never against the fact that it is up to everyone’s preference and setting. But to me, GTO filter (Minimum Phase on) produces the best sound amongst others.

Just my 2 cents and do not throw bricks to me J. Happy listening everyone!
 
Jun 17, 2021 at 9:49 AM Post #1,460 of 2,172
I owned both. I had the Pro iDSD and was not that happy (I expected more for the price). After I sold I, I bought a Signagure. So it is no 1:1 comparison, but the soundsignature is quite similar. Both does NOT have the warm and smooth typical Burr Brown DAC sound. Which I really appreciate to be honest.
Have you ever tried iDSD micro BL? Does BL warmer than Pro iDSD?
 
Jun 17, 2021 at 2:03 PM Post #1,461 of 2,172
Although someone mentioned on this forum that GTO replaces both Bit Perfect and Minimum Phase. I had a wonder why people dislike it while iFI’s technical analyses are rather logical and persuasive. Still, it is correct that the DAC first upsamples all music before processing. On iFI’s GTO whitepaper, GTO filter replaces MP which I supposed this may imply this filter is fully activated as intended when the switch is at Minimum Phase position, not the Bit Perfect. And I found differences: on Bit Perfect, with GTO filter, the sound is weird with very tight and fast transients, “no soul”. On Minimum Phase, all sound comes natural, coherent while voice and instruments are prominent like life.

Conclusion: I am never against the fact that it is up to everyone’s preference and setting. But to me, GTO filter (Minimum Phase on) produces the best sound amongst others.

Just my 2 cents and do not throw bricks to me J. Happy listening everyone!

Installing the GTO firmware replaces - All - the filters. The filter switch becomes bypassed and inactive. Ifi has confirmed this themselves. So what you think you heard was not there. Don't shoot me, the messenger, please :) When I first got the unit I thought the same as you, but switching firmware back and forth a couple of times revealed this change pretty quickly.
Personally, I find the slow roll off linear filter and the GTO-filter to be the most agreeable to my taste. But if I can I always try to upsample myself in software before sending it to the iDSD. This produces so much more agreeable results. The DSD1793 chips sound pleasing coming from their interesting architecture, but unfortunately their built in digital filters are very antiquated. Not even clearing 16 bit range if I remember so... I try to avoid them if I can. The newer ones have better built in filters, lower noise and still sporting the same architecture, but Ifi refuses to upgrade still to this day so.... Guess we'll never know if they truly sound different or not :p
 
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Jun 17, 2021 at 2:20 PM Post #1,463 of 2,172
Yes. I had both. The BL is much warmer.
Thanks! Do you know any examples of warm implementations with BB DACs or any others with no tube effect? Not warmer than BL. For me, BL doesn't have a tube effect. I'm looking for a desktop solution to replace BL.
 
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Jun 17, 2021 at 4:06 PM Post #1,464 of 2,172
Thanks! Do you know any examples of warm implementations with BB DACs or any others with no tube effect? Not warmer than BL. For me, BL doesn't have a tube effect. I'm looking for a desktop solution to replace BL.
You can simulate tube sound with a SMSL SU-9 or similar DAC, but you will never have a OTL tube sound with a SS amp or non tube DAC. I would say the BL is more on the "tube side" than 97% of the other non tube DAC/amps out there. But for shure I have not tested / heard every device :D
 
Jun 18, 2021 at 1:16 AM Post #1,465 of 2,172
Installing the GTO firmware replaces - All - the filters. The filter switch becomes bypassed and inactive. Ifi has confirmed this themselves. So what you think you heard was not there. Don't shoot me, the messenger, please :) When I first got the unit I thought the same as you, but switching firmware back and forth a couple of times revealed this change pretty quickly.
Personally, I find the slow roll off linear filter and the GTO-filter to be the most agreeable to my taste. But if I can I always try to upsample myself in software before sending it to the iDSD. This produces so much more agreeable results. The DSD1793 chips sound pleasing coming from their interesting architecture, but unfortunately their built in digital filters are very antiquated. Not even clearing 16 bit range if I remember so... I try to avoid them if I can. The newer ones have better built in filters, lower noise and still sporting the same architecture, but Ifi refuses to upgrade still to this day so.... Guess we'll never know if they truly sound different or not :p
Hi mate, I appreciate your feedback and believe in what you wrote. It is very interesting that we, the “new” Head-fier may somehow share the same way in researching, testing, experimenting and enjoying our music after thousands of listening hours with many different devices. From what you shared, I think that we both follow the way of logical approach for our hobbies.

I changed filters to listen to my music again and found that I still preferred GTO filter. Therefore, I once again had a new assumption and then did another experiment last night. The Xmos memory may have some kinds of recording the very last state of the filter switch at the time we upgrade the firmware. As long as I like the Minimum Phase with music upsampled by NeutronMP more than the bit perfect with NOS before feeding the DAC, at the time of upgrading, the filter switch is always on Mimimum Phase. For many others, they tend to keep the filter switch on Bit Perfect as recommended by iFI when upgrading.

I tried to upgrade my Signature to the GTO filter when the filter switch is on Bit Perfect. I thought that was the strange sound people mentioned. Later upgrading to FW5.3c when the filter switch was on Minimum Phase, that was the sound I like and much different from the former one. For me, GTO + Minimum Phase on (both pre and post upgrading time) is most preferred.

Once again, maybe placebo effects or just my personal preference. But I really like what I listen and what you shares. That’s what we call practical experiences. Happy listening!😀
 
Jul 1, 2021 at 4:07 PM Post #1,466 of 2,172
I’m rather worn out with iFi-Audio’s excuse for the pervasive channel imbalance present on the entire micro idsd line. I have a slew of amp/dacs and DAPs from a wide array of manufacturers, both high end and affordable, all with analog volume controls that don’t have this issue. Even their less expensive Hip Dac and xDSD have no issues with channel imbalance. I have high-end iBasso, Fiio, Chord and Cambridge Audio devices that handle dual mono configurations just fine (and which don’t have the ear-drum imploding kapow that occurs when powering up the unit).

I’m also dumbfounded that they went through all the trouble of putting the kitchen sink into the micro idsd Signature unit, then inexplicably short-changed the pentacom 4.4mm output jack with their fake balanced “S-balanced” circuit. This innovation is noble for folks with unbalanced 3.5mm cans, but for those of us who shell out for true balanced headphones, we do so specifically because we want the true interleaving and power advantages that a true balanced circuit offers.

And before iFi responds that their S-balanced feature does offer power advantages for both single ended and balanced connections alike, please spare me the marketing pitch. S-balanced and true balanced are not the same—which is why the far cheaper Hip Dac is arguably your only novel product (in its price range)—because the 4.4mm jack is true balanced, which makes the unit a steal for consumers because it can be enjoyed by those with all tiers of wired headphones—balanced or not.

I think iFi-audio makes superlative products, and they clearly put a lot of thought and effort into their designs. Sadly, and often infuriatingly, there seems to be one weak link in the R&D chain of command who is determined to make the end result missing the one essential feature that keeps it from being an unmitigated success. Which is why I have a drawer full of their gear that I never use, except the Hip Dac, for a go-to truly portable option. The rest entice for a few weeks, then end up in the doorstop pile.

Ifi, I know you’re on here. Do you ever actually read the feedback your customers take the time to write? Instead of making excuses for why your gear has flaws and trying to gaslight us into believing that they’re actually bonuses, maybe you could humbly take our suggestions to the drawing board?
 
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Jul 1, 2021 at 10:26 PM Post #1,467 of 2,172
I’m rather worn out with iFi-Audio’s excuse for the pervasive channel imbalance present on the entire micro idsd line. I have a slew of amp/dacs and DAPs from a wide array of manufacturers, both high end and affordable, all with analog volume controls that don’t have this issue. Even their less expensive Hip Dac and xDSD have no issues with channel imbalance. I have high-end iBasso, Fiio, Chord and Cambridge Audio devices that handle dual mono configurations just fine (and which don’t have the ear-drum imploding kapow that occurs when powering up the unit).

I’m also dumbfounded that they went through all the trouble of putting the kitchen sink into the micro idsd Signature unit, then inexplicably short-changed the pentacom 4.4mm output jack with their fake balanced “S-balanced” circuit. This innovation is noble for folks with unbalanced 3.5mm cans, but for those of us who shell out for true balanced headphones, we do so specifically because we want the true interleaving and power advantages that a true balanced circuit offers.

And before iFi responds that their S-balanced feature does offer power advantages for both single ended and balanced connections alike, please spare me the marketing pitch. S-balanced and true balanced are not the same—which is why the far cheaper Hip Dac is arguably your only novel product (in its price range)—because the 4.4mm jack is true balanced, which makes the unit a steal for consumers because it can be enjoyed by those with all tiers of wired headphones—balanced or not.

I think iFi-audio makes superlative products, and they clearly put a lot of thought and effort into their designs. Sadly, and often infuriatingly, there seems to be one weak link in the R&D chain of command who is determined to make the end result missing the one essential feature that keeps it from being an unmitigated success. Which is why I have a drawer full of their gear that I never use, except the Hip Dac, for a go-to truly portable option. The rest entice for a few weeks, then end up in the doorstop pile.

Ifi, I know you’re on here. Do you ever actually read the feedback your customers take the time to write? Instead of making excuses for why your gear has flaws and trying to gaslight us into believing that they’re actually bonuses, maybe you could humbly take our suggestions to the drawing board?
Congrats on your first post,
It seems your unhappy with the signature. I actually have an idsd signature and love the sound I get out of it.
Tried the idsd Diablo and while it has fully balanced circuitry, found the sound and power output was not for me. Ifi makes different products for these reasons. Looks like your really happy with your hip Dac. That’s great! I’ve never found balanced to make much of a difference except for higher volume. They say it’s better for longer cable runs though which I believe. I have well made XLR cables from my dac to my desktop amp. Since these portable amp / dacs are 1 unit, I just don’t see the point here. I think it’s easy to get lost in the spec sheets of these things. What’s important is weather or not your enjoying the music. Oh and volume pot imbalance is not a problem on my unit or the Diablo I tried out. They work as they should
As for Ifi reading and answering feedback, I can assure you that they do and will respond if you have specific questions.
Hope that helps (if you were looking for help)
Chibs
 
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Jul 2, 2021 at 3:02 PM Post #1,468 of 2,172
I just noticed that Firmware 7.2 has "Added PlayStation USB compatibility".

Does the latest firmware for the earlier serial numbers (version 5.3 I believe) also have PlayStation USB compatibility?
 
Jul 2, 2021 at 7:02 PM Post #1,469 of 2,172
Congrats on your first post,
It seems your unhappy with the signature. I actually have an idsd signature and love the sound I get out of it.
Tried the idsd Diablo and while it has fully balanced circuitry, found the sound and power output was not for me. Ifi makes different products for these reasons. Looks like your really happy with your hip Dac. That’s great! I’ve never found balanced to make much of a difference except for higher volume. They say it’s better for longer cable runs though which I believe. I have well made XLR cables from my dac to my desktop amp. Since these portable amp / dacs are 1 unit, I just don’t see the point here. I think it’s easy to get lost in the spec sheets of these things. What’s important is weather or not your enjoying the music. Oh and volume pot imbalance is not a problem on my unit or the Diablo I tried out. They work as they should
As for Ifi reading and answering feedback, I can assure you that they do and will respond if you have specific questions.
Hope that helps (if you were looking for help)
Chibs
Appreciate your thoughtful responses. I can assure you that although this was my first post here (which was in no way intended to sound officious to established users), it is not my first foray into audiophile forums, and I’ve been a frequent visitor to head-fi as an authoritative resource for many moons.

I think you made many level-headed and reasonable points. But isn’t the Diablo another example of the point I attempted to make about iFi’s lack of focus in their product development? It is yet another piece of hardware that just seemed gratuitous to me—it looks like yet another retread of the micro idsd line, this time in fancy red, yet bizarrely stripped off all the features! I guess it was intended to be a no-nonsense, “purist” option—but given it’s emergence a little over a year after the Signature was launched, I failed to see what it added, other than perhaps a bit more power. And again, it seems like another piece of clutter in the iFi lineup that is missing a frustrating, essential deal-breaker—in this case any post signal processing.

Like pretty much all of the iFi offerings EXCEPT the Hip Dac, I can’t seem to identity its intended target niche. What was wrong with the XBass feature that warranted a refresh of the micro idsd line without it? Who was clamoring for what is essentially a micro idsd signature minus the XBass or 3D, in a flashier, rounded-corners, Lamborghini-esque, cherry red finish? What is aspirational among their product launches over the past several years to make one want to upgrade, if they’re going to lose something one liked about a predecessor (especially at these price points)?

And although I understand your measured point about personal listening preferences and performance over specs, the truth is that there is a psychology to knowing what’s under the hood of audiophile products—in fact I would argue that the entire audiophile market is in many ways driven by an obsession for the best possible components and a pride in knowledge of how stuff works, arguably at priority over nuances in sound. This site is filled with long-form essays on physics and esoteric frequency response curves and minutia—does that mean that the majority of us could actually discern differences between dual AKM 4499s and a pair of ESS9038 Pros? I can’t say for sure—but I know enough folks care enough about specs to fill the web with endless didactics on these subjects and more.

My point remains that the excitement that informs allegiance to a specific electronics manufacturer comes from anticipating how they build on the technologies that made you a fan to begin with. I upgraded my micro idsd black label to the xDSD for the new Bluetooth feature and a balanced output (the latter of which, no offense to your experiences, has been clearly established to improve audio fidelity, increase useable power, decrease cross talk and lower the noise floor considerably, as is evident in the emerging pentacom 4.4mm reference standard). After a meh experience with Bluetooth audio, I upgraded my xDSD to the micro iDSD signature, excited about the opportunity to recapture the power of the micro idsd line, now equipped with a 4.4mm balanced output.

Then I learn that the 4.4mm output, unlike their $149 Hip Dac, is actually single ended, and also unlike the far cheaper Hip Dac, hasn’t resolved the channel imbalance of its predecessors, which folks have complained about for years? Come on, guy, these sloppy oversights simply make no sense. The Hip Dac makes perfect sense for the affordable market it serves—and it has features that iFi’s flagship products omit, for reasons only iFi seems to know.

So if you’ve actually taken the time to read this far, I will summarize by maintaining that unless one wants to forgo any portability and is willing to shell out three grand for the Pro iDSD 4.4mm option, iFi has to this day failed to produce a mid-range, transportable Dac, intended primarily for headphone use, that doesn’t have a fatal flaw—despite littering the market with many gratuitous nice-try’s year after year. And I’m taking the time to blather on about this because I keep waiting for them to do just that—I’m a fan!
 
Jul 2, 2021 at 9:50 PM Post #1,470 of 2,172
My new toy has arrived! I've been waiting for something to replace my Chord Mojo as a desktop and transportable DAC/amp.
Initial impressions (with less than 5 hours of burn-in) are very good. The color looks great. The build quality is excellent and feels very solid. I like having an physical round volume knob (the Mojo has buttons), but I do miss the perfect channel balance even at the lowest volume range.

With the Focal Elear (80 ohms, 104 dB / 1 mW @ 1 kHz), I was able to get to a normal listening volume at 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock on the volume knob. Power at Normal and IEMatch at Ultra Sensitive.
With the Sennheiser IE 900 (16 ohms, 123 dB / 1kHz 1Vrms), normal listening volume is at 11 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Power at Eco and IEMatch at Ultra Sensitive.
Are these Power and IEMatch settings ok? Any recommendations? On my unit, channel imbalance happens at around 10-10.5 o'clock or below.

Questions:
- What's the best firmware to use for PCM (I want to maintain the Bit Perfect filter and don't plan to use DSD or MQA), 7.2 or 7.2b?
- Does the 10W iPad charger provide enough power? Its output is 5.1V, 2.1A.
- What's the recommended burn-in time?
 

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