[BS5711]

The numbers for the diablo above are all at 32 Ohm.

My Mojo 2 measures 0.5W @32 ohm hence the mention. A 0.3w difference between the mojo 2 and diablo vs a 4.1W difference between the diablo spec and actual figure.

Though the mojo isn't the point.

The Mojo 2 became somewhat part of the point when you used it as the comparison.

Stating measured data about the Diablo is fine but to criticise ifI then very casually compare their Diablo to a significant competitor without presenting solid test data with accurate numbers for isn't so fine in my opinion.

So at 32 ohms we have Diablo at 845mw and Mojo to at something that rounds to 0.5 Watts, that could be 460mw, we still don't know, ASR had it at 398mw at 33 ohms.

We don't have 300 ohm numbers for either.

Like I said, I get your point, I really do, and frankly I don't actually care about the numbers, I am just making a point, which is to draw a comparison was in poor judgement in my opinion, especially when many see you as an authority that they should pay attention to.

 

[GoldenSound]

The Mojo 2 became somewhat part of the point when you used it as the comparison.

Stating measured data about the Diablo is fine but to criticise ifI then very casually compare their Diablo to a significant competitor without presenting solid test data with accurate numbers for isn't so fine in my opinion.

So at 32 ohms we have Diablo at 845mw and Mojo to at something that rounds to 0.5 Watts, that could be 460mw, we still don't know, ASR had it at 398mw at 33 ohms.

We don't have 300 ohm numbers for either.

Like I said, I get your point, I really do, and frankly I don't actually care about the numbers, I am just making a point, which is I to draw a comparison was in poor judgement in my opinion, especially when many see you as an authority that they should pay attention to.

I've removed the mojo 2 mention from the post. I don't want semantics to distract from the actual point

 

[BS5711]

I've removed the mojo 2 mention from the post. I don't want semantics to distract from the actual point

That seems very reasonable.

I don't think this is the place to indirectly provide free advertising for Chord.

 

[eskamobob1]

That seems very reasonable.

I don't think this is the place to indirectly provide free advertising for Chord.

How was that in any way free chord advertising?....

 

[CH23]

how is this discussion in any way taking precedence over the one of iFi's measurements being....skewed...from the standard and measurements as done by @GoldenOne ?

 

[BS5711]

how is this discussion in any way taking precedence over the one of iFi's measurements being....skewed...from the standard and measurements as done by @GoldenOne ?

I am not really sure what your objection is, if people are interested in the criticism about power numbers that will come to the front of the thread organically.

I offered an opinion about including a comparison with another device in his criticism of the Diablo, an opinion that apparently Cameron agreed with at least sufficiently to decide to remove that comparison comment.

I stated my case, Cameron acted on that as he saw fit, you are all absolutely free to discuss Cameron's post and measurements completely ignoring the last few comments between Cameron and myself.

I will ignore the question from eskamobob1 so as not to take up any further forum real estate and allow Camerson's power numbers to be discussed with no further comment from me. I would have thought the context of my comment was clear but perhaps not, doesn't matter either way.

I don't care about the specific power numbers, I like the Diablo a great deal for my use case, your mileage might vary, that is fine also.

 

[CH23]

I don't care about the specific power numbers, I like the Diablo a great deal for my use case, your mileage might vary, that is fine also.

you can like a thing and still be not okay with a company moving goalposts to come out on top. I like my Diablo but i'm still not okay with them claiming on the box (and even now on their website!) that it'll run fine with high-sensitive IEMs, when it clearly can't.

and now another claim is (potentially) proven to be skewed or false.
If we want to keep the hi-fi industry healthy, then we should always speak up when something is being marketed as something it is not. There is enough snake oil already, we don't need more.

 

[GoldenSound]

you can like a thing and still be not okay with a company moving goalposts to come out on top. I like my Diablo but i'm still not okay with them claiming on the box (and even now on their website!) that it'll run fine with high-sensitive IEMs, when it clearly can't.



and now another claim is (potentially) proven to be skewed or false.
If we want to keep the hi-fi industry healthy, then we should always speak up when something is being marketed as something it is not. There is enough snake oil already, we don't need more.

This.

You can like a product whilst not being OK with false marketing or other issues.

I really like the Denafrips DACs but I don't like the fact they advertise NOS when they're not actually NOS

I gave the Diablo a positive review and quite like it but am not OK with them inflating the power spec by about 6x.

To be honest I'm considering removing my idsd diablo/signature review entirely.

Marketing and specs should be honest. There isn't an excuse.
It doesn't matter how amazing a product is. Don't lie to or mislead your customers.

 

[801evan]

I thought I should post this here as it's something which is likely to be a factor in one's purchasing decisions.

The iDSD Diablo is specced as having 4.98W @ 32 Ohm. There is no further info given on the product page other than a voltage value of 12.6V which at 32 Ohms is indeed 4.98W.

The industry standard for measuring power is to find the maximum value an amplifier can continuously output without going above 1% THD. This is how almost all power specs for amps you see are obtained.
Sometimes manufacturers might use 10% instead, though this isn't ideal and if this is the value given it should be clearly stated so as not to mislead consumers.

As well as continuous or RMS power, some manufacturers will provide a peak power value. Which is the amount of power an amp can supply for short durations, but not continuously. This is specified by the CEA 2006 standard as 20 'on' cycles of a 1khz sine followed by 480 'rest' cycles (signal 20dB lower than the 'on' cycle).
A peak power measurement is useful to have, ideally in addition to the continuous power value, but again, it needs to be specified that it is a peak measurement, as it's going to be a higher number than the RMS value in most cases and cannot be compared to the continuous/RMS power spec of other amps.

The iDSD diablo has a spec of 4.98W, however when I tested it I was only able to get up to about 0.8W.
5.2V @ 32 Ohm is 0.845W and the Diablo distorts heavily at this level (regardless of being plugged in or not, fully charged, turbo mode etc):



I contacted iFi about this, and they told me that the power spec is a peak power spec, not an RMS spec. This is not made clear anywhere on the product page.
They also said that they did the test using a SINGLE sine cycle, not the 20 that the CEA 2006 spec requires.

I repeated their test, and yeah, it will do it for a single cycle, but trying the actual CEA 2006 test, by the third cycle it's already distorting massively. So even as a peak value 4.98W is inflated and incorrect according to industry standard testing.



I've asked iFi if they are specifying power on other products this way and if they're going to update the specs to make clear that this is a 'max instantaneous' value, and NOT an accurate peak or RMS value. At the moment they've said they will add this info to their FAQ page but have not said anything about updating the product page itself.

I'm not particularly happy about this as this methodology significantly inflates the power spec of the Diablo in a way that is misleading to consumers and not even updating the product page to at LEAST say 'peak' or something (even though as explained above the figure is still arguably incorrect even as a peak measurement) is in my opinion quite irresponsible ESPECIALLY given as power is one of the main selling points of the Diablo.
The actual power output of the Diablo that can be compared to other products is about 0.8W, NOT 4.98W.

Yet the Diablo can drive the Susvara effortlessly on eco mode on 4.4. and still have headroom.

This is another post from someone who claims they listen subjectively and whom made a video saying to not trust measurements. So you only use measurements when it fits your narrative and knock competitors ? Same as suddenly not having a subjective opinion on the zen stream review?

 

[GoldenSound]

Yet the Diablo can drive the Susvara effortlessly on eco mode on 4.4. and still have headroom.

This is another post from someone who claims they listen subjectively and whom made a video saying to not trust measurements. So you only use measurements when it fits your narrative and knock competitors ? Same as suddenly not having a subjective opinion on the zen stream review?

The eco/normal/turbo modes are gain settings. Gain does not determine power unless voltage is the limiting factor. (Its almost always current with headphone amps and lower impedance loads). And even then technically it still doesn't as gain doesn't determine maximum voltage output either.

Regardless, my post has nothing to do with subjective thoughts on the product, in fact as I said I gave it a pretty positive review.

Something being otherwise subjectively good doesn't excuse false or misleading specifications.

 

[OCC7N]

I thought I should post this here as it's something which is likely to be a factor in one's purchasing decisions.

The iDSD Diablo is specced as having 4.98W @ 32 Ohm. There is no further info given on the product page other than a voltage value of 12.6V which at 32 Ohms is indeed 4.98W.

The industry standard for measuring power is to find the maximum value an amplifier can continuously output without going above 1% THD. This is how almost all power specs for amps you see are obtained.
Sometimes manufacturers might use 10% instead, though this isn't ideal and if this is the value given it should be clearly stated so as not to mislead consumers.

As well as continuous or RMS power, some manufacturers will provide a peak power value. Which is the amount of power an amp can supply for short durations, but not continuously. This is specified by the CEA 2006 standard as 20 'on' cycles of a 1khz sine followed by 480 'rest' cycles (signal 20dB lower than the 'on' cycle).
A peak power measurement is useful to have, ideally in addition to the continuous power value, but again, it needs to be specified that it is a peak measurement, as it's going to be a higher number than the RMS value in most cases and cannot be compared to the continuous/RMS power spec of other amps.

The iDSD diablo has a spec of 4.98W, however when I tested it I was only able to get up to about 0.8W.
5.2V @ 32 Ohm is 0.845W and the Diablo distorts heavily at this level (regardless of being plugged in or not, fully charged, turbo mode etc):



I contacted iFi about this, and they told me that the power spec is a peak power spec, not an RMS spec. This is not made clear anywhere on the product page.
They also said that they did the test using a SINGLE sine cycle, not the 20 that the CEA 2006 spec requires.

I repeated their test, and yeah, it will do it for a single cycle, but trying the actual CEA 2006 test, by the third cycle it's already distorting massively. So even as a peak value 4.98W is inflated and incorrect according to industry standard testing.



I've asked iFi if they are specifying power on other products this way and if they're going to update the specs to make clear that this is a 'max instantaneous' value, and NOT an accurate peak or RMS value. At the moment they've said they will add this info to their FAQ page but have not said anything about updating the product page itself.

I'm not particularly happy about this as this methodology significantly inflates the power spec of the Diablo in a way that is misleading to consumers and not even updating the product page to at LEAST say 'peak' or something (even though as explained above the figure is still arguably incorrect even as a peak measurement) is in my opinion quite irresponsible ESPECIALLY given as power is one of the main selling points of the Diablo.
The actual power output of the Diablo that can be compared to other products is about 0.8W, NOT 4.98W.

Ok. What about RME DAC FS it has 1.5W per channel. You are also saying that is a lie ?

Yet my diablo beats double the output power! RME falls even weak to my Arya.

I don´t know what your intentions are but you are clearly making an example of yourself. Another attempt to gain more followers?

 

[GoldenSound]

Ok. What about RME DAC FS it has 1.5W per channel. You are also saying that is a lie ?

Yet my diablo beats double the output power! RME falls even weak to my Arya.

I don´t know what your intentions are but you are clearly making and example of yourself. Another attempt to gain more followers?

I've not tested the power of the ADI-2 FS so can't comment. If I get one in I'd be happy to do so

 

[GoldenSound]

Nah you probably have the wish version of the APx555. I don´t need you numbers, when I know you are clearly lying.

You diablo may have been defect, mine is a powerhouse!

Dont make you claims general. You are.

Ifi literally confirmed it cannot do 4.98W continuous.

Additionally here are some other independent measurements if you don't trust me: https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/ifi-idsd-diablo/

In fact his unit got even lower, around 0.6W

 

[BS5711]

This.

You can like a product whilst not being OK with false marketing or other issues.

I really like the Denafrips DACs but I don't like the fact they advertise NOS when they're not actually NOS

I gave the Diablo a positive review and quite like it but am not OK with them inflating the power spec by about 6x.

To be honest I'm considering removing my idsd diablo/signature review entirely.

Marketing and specs should be honest. There isn't an excuse.
It doesn't matter how amazing a product is. Don't lie to or mislead your customers.

I am not going to get involved with this but I would just like to clarify that I actually said that I agree with the intent of your post, it was a subtlety of the execution I didn't agree with, I made that quite clear.

Just because I say I don't care about the exact power output and I am happy with the my Diablo doesn't mean I am absolutely fine with ifi overstating the numbers, only that it isn't something I am going to jump up and down about because it doesn't effect my enjoyment of the device.

If others want to get all up in their face about have it it so far as I am concerned.

 

[BS5711]

Cameron,

Firstly I am not arguing with you here, I am just curious, and I in no way condone others claiming you are lying or have some other motive with your post, I think that is uncalled for.

Have you measured Diablo into 300 ohm ?

In comparing my Diablo to my Asgard 3 my impression was that the Diablo was well outclassed into 13 ohms DCA Aeon Noire but the tables were turned into 300 ohm HD600 where I felt like the Diablo actually bested the Asgard. The power/voltage numbers into 300 ohms for both products suggest that should be the case and I certainly don't hear any horrid distortion driving the HD600 to crazy volume even in Turbo mode.

The Diablo did well enough into the 13 ohm Aeon that within sane volumes the limitations didn't matter and I still preferred to listen with the Diablo over the Asgard 3 which I sold only weeks into owning it.

My impression from the Diablo and a few other ifI products over the last few years is they are designed with more of an emphasis on higher voltage than current output and so struggle into low impedance and low sensitivity loads but do disproportionately well into higher impedances.

Of course I am a nobody from the other side of the world with no measurement gear and middle aged hearing so I might be missing something here.