[TrantaLocked]

I did a listening test again today, amped vs unamped out of a smartphone to make sure I wasn't crazy. With a FiiO A3 amp, the difference in separation and imaging is definitely noticeable. This is a cheap amp too, so I am sure a higher quality one would yield even better results. I don't know much about the numbers, but the extra power makes a significant difference. If you get a chance to try amped vs unamped SR, I'd be interested in your opinion.

I'll be buying (or getting for Christmas) the Creative Sound Blaster E1. It's super small with a clip for mobile use, has both USB DAC and analog amplifier, mic in and volume control. It really is perfect besides maybe my wish for something even smaller, but that would be tough for decent amplification. I chose this over the FiiO A1 because of the USB DAC, higher power and longer battery life. I'll let you know when I get it. I might need to return the ER4PT before I get the amp though, oh well. 
 

  when I tested the er4sr, my pair would reach 115db at 1khz when fed  around 10mW... and that's crazy loud, I double checked everything because I was so scared to exceed the 122db max output written on the box and damage my IEMs. so I get a little sensitive(measurement PTSD ^_^) when I read about power making a significant difference. in practice most people won't send 1mW into the SR when listening at their preferred listening level. so I don't know what idea you tried to convey, but I'm fairly confident that power wasn't it. 

 

 
I don't think volume level indicates whether you're taking full advantage of the headphone. I can reach the volume level I need for the ER4S just fine out of my phone (80%), but that doesn't mean the headphone is being amplified optimally. I'm pretty sure any source unamped would give me enough volume with any high end headphone, like the HD 600 for example, but it won't sound nearly as good as an amped HD 600. My HD 201 for sure has a small and weak soundstage out of any of my portables, but sounds just fine out of my desktop.  
 
And to the rest of your post; the audible difference between equipment can stem from either output frequency response, signal to noise (StN), THD, output impedance or output power. Those are the main differences a least. We can cross out StN and THD because those really don't affect the overall sound much. Maybe a tiny bit of difference in buzzing or distortion, but no grand differences. Frequency response might be related to the effect he's talking about, but significantly more 3D soundstage from just a freq response change, and the fact that amp freq response rarely strays far from flat? I don't think so. You're talking maybe a few dB difference in freq. response between amps/sources. Then you have output impedance and power. Output impedance doesn't do much as long as it isn't ridiculously high, so that leaves us with output power. The audible difference he's hearing might be a mixture of difference in power, impedance, frequency response and StN, but I'd bet 80%+ of the difference he's hearing is due to power. But if you're fairly confident it wasn't power, what would you suggest? Output impedance?

 

[CraftyClown]

I'll be buying (or getting for Christmas) the Creative Sound Blaster E1. It's super small with a clip for mobile use, has both USB DAC and analog amplifier, mic in and volume control. It really is perfect besides maybe my wish for something even smaller, but that would be tough for decent amplification. I chose this over the FiiO A1 because of the USB DAC, higher power and longer battery life. I'll let you know when I get it. I might need to return the ER4PT before I get the amp though, oh well. 


I don't think volume level indicates whether you're taking full advantage of the headphone. I can reach the volume level I need for the ER4S just fine out of my phone (80%), but that doesn't mean the headphone is being amplified optimally. I'm pretty sure any source unamped would give me enough volume with any high end headphone, like the HD 600 for example, but it won't sound nearly as good as an amped HD 600. My HD 201 for sure has a small and weak soundstage out of any of my portables, but sounds just fine out of my desktop.  

And to the rest of your post; the audible difference between equipment can stem from either output frequency response, signal to noise (StN), THD, output impedance or output power. Those are the main differences a least. We can cross out StN and THD because those really don't affect the overall sound much. Maybe a tiny bit of difference in buzzing or distortion, but no grand differences. Frequency response might be related to the effect he's talking about, but significantly more 3D soundstage from just a freq response change, and the fact that amp freq response rarely strays far from flat? I don't think so. You're talking maybe a few dB difference in freq. response between amps/sources. Then you have output impedance and power. Output impedance doesn't do much as long as it isn't ridiculously high, so that leaves us with output power. The audible difference he's hearing might be a mixture of difference in power, impedance, frequency response and StN, but I'd bet 80%+ of the difference he's hearing is due to power. But if you're fairly confident it wasn't power, what would you suggest? Output impedance?

I would have thought potentially high output impedance would be the most likely cause of any audible sound differences.

Then again I also wouldn't discount expectation bias and a failure to correctly volume match. I am a touch on the sceptical side though.

 

[TrantaLocked]

I would have thought potentially high output impedance would be the most likely cause of any audible sound differences.

Then again I also wouldn't discount expectation bias and a failure to correctly volume match. I am a touch on the sceptical side though.

Output impedance doesn't usually vary much in the lower end of amps and equipment, and his was a FiiO A3 w/~0 output impedance and source probably close to zero. But maybe his source really did have high output impedance, so let's ask him.

 

[TrantaLocked]

I did a listening test again today, amped vs unamped out of a smartphone to make sure I wasn't crazy. With a FiiO A3 amp, the difference in separation and imaging is definitely noticeable. This is a cheap amp too, so I am sure a higher quality one would yield even better results. I don't know much about the numbers, but the extra power makes a significant difference. If you get a chance to try amped vs unamped SR, I'd be interested in your opinion.

What's your source output impedance (or the one you used originally when comparing the XR unamped vs amped), without any amp of course? Trying to solve this mystery once and for all. If it's close to 0 ohm then it confirms any average lower power unamped source is not optimal for SR/XR sound quality.

 

[castleofargh]

 

  when I tested the er4sr, my pair would reach 115db at 1khz when fed  around 10mW... and that's crazy loud, I double checked everything because I was so scared to exceed the 122db max output written on the box and damage my IEMs. so I get a little sensitive(measurement PTSD ^_^) when I read about power making a significant difference. in practice most people won't send 1mW into the SR when listening at their preferred listening level. so I don't know what idea you tried to convey, but I'm fairly confident that power wasn't it. 

 

 
I don't think volume level indicates whether you're taking full advantage of the headphone. I can reach the volume level I need for the ER4S just fine out of my phone (80%), but that doesn't mean the headphone is being amplified optimally. I'm pretty sure any source unamped would give me enough volume with any high end headphone, like the HD 600 for example, but it won't sound nearly as good as an amped HD 600. My HD 201 for sure has a small and weak soundstage out of any of my portables, but sounds just fine out of my desktop.  
 
And to the rest of your post; the audible difference between equipment can stem from either output frequency response, signal to noise (StN), THD, output impedance or output power. Those are the main differences a least. We can cross out StN and THD because those really don't affect the overall sound much. Maybe a tiny bit of difference in buzzing or distortion, but no grand differences. Frequency response might be related to the effect he's talking about, but significantly more 3D soundstage from just a freq response change, and the fact that amp freq response rarely strays far from flat? I don't think so. You're talking maybe a few dB difference in freq. response between amps/sources. Then you have output impedance and power. Output impedance doesn't do much as long as it isn't ridiculously high, so that leaves us with output power. The audible difference he's hearing might be a mixture of difference in power, impedance, frequency response and StN, but I'd bet 80%+ of the difference he's hearing is due to power. But if you're fairly confident it wasn't power, what would you suggest? Output impedance?

 
volume level is directly related to voltage levels. the impedance of the IEM(the load) is known for a given frequency. at that frequency once we've set the loudness we know(well if we measure it^_^) voltage and impedance, so it's not too hard to guess the current output and power used, even if you don't have the means to measure them.
of course some devices may fail to deliver the voltage without a lot of distortions, and others may fail to deliver the required current, but we're not talking about feeding a LCD2 or a 5ohm IEM. we're talking about a very typical IEM.
 
I totally agree with THD, FR, SNR, impedance, crosstalk ... that can be different between 2 devices, in fact it is very much my point. by listening to 2 devices, we have no mean to say that what we feel wasn't caused by one or several of those variables. just like we have no mean to say that power difference was the reason for what he heard.
we can cherry pick the one cause out of a hundred that agrees with ourselves, but then it's called guessing. so you making a bet may not be that far off.

 
great impedance difference in 2 sources will have a little impact. the higher the impedance of the source, the "brighter" the er4sr ( same reason as for er4-> er4s transition, non flat impedance curve).

(as always with my stuff, disregard the 50hz wiggle, it's caused by the 30$ input I use for the coupler, not the source or the IEM). #becheaporbedead
on that one variable, because I've measured it myself, I have a good level of confidence but that's only one of many variables. when I listen to 2 devices and one sounds clearly better to me, what seems logical is to tell what I know. and that is how I prefer using one device. speculations about the reasons are ok, but should read as speculations, not certainties. even more so when it's about electricity, a very objective domain.
 
 
I don't mean to be a buzz killer, I appreciate people spending time to offer feedback for other curious members to read. but if it becomes misinformation, it's not helping anybody.
don't worry I get wrong too, a lot in fact, and I expect you guys to say something when it happens. that's what helping each others and learning should be.

 

[WhatToChoose]

  What's your source output impedance (or the one you used originally when comparing the XR unamped vs amped), without any amp of course? Trying to solve this mystery once and for all. If it's close to 0 ohm then it confirms any average lower power unamped source is not optimal for SR/XR sound quality.

My source for this test was a samsung galaxy S5.

 

[WhatToChoose]

you plug the IEM into 2 devices that have 2 totally different amp sections, and as far as we know, different everything. how does such experience relate to your confidence about power?
 the mental shortcut, "it sounds better with the amp therefore more power sounds better!" is usually false for IEMs(and too often overstated in headphones). I'm not blaming you, most people seem to make that assumption. still, we'd know that power is the cause for better perceived sound if everything else was the same but power. that's not what you tried.
 
when I tested the er4sr, my pair would reach 115db at 1khz when fed  around 10mW... and that's crazy loud, I double checked everything because I was so scared to exceed the 122db max output written on the box and damage my IEMs. so I get a little sensitive(measurement PTSD ^_^) when I read about power making a significant difference. in practice most people won't send 1mW into the SR when listening at their preferred listening level. so I don't know what idea you tried to convey, but I'm fairly confident that power wasn't it.

 
It is obvious that power makes a difference in output SQ. Voltage is not the only variable, current comes into play as well. This means, at the same power level, output SQ can be different depending on how much current and voltage is supplied. You should be able to see why an amplifier can make such a big difference at this point, especially with relatively low impedance headphones.

 

[TrantaLocked]

   
It is obvious that power makes a difference in output SQ. Voltage is not the only variable, current comes into play as well. This means, at the same power level, output SQ can be different depending on how much current and voltage is supplied. You should be able to see why an amplifier can make such a big difference at this point, especially with relatively low impedance headphones.

So voltage changes volume level, and source amperage is the same for any single source at any volume? And the driver doesn't just care about total power for optimal performance, it needs a certain amount of amperage regardless of voltage, meaning even if a source can go very loud (high voltage) if it doesn't provide enough current then sound quality will suffer even though total power ends up being high? Or is it total power that actually effects volume level and not just voltage?
 
And castleofargh, I get your point, but for real, how would THD or any of those other factors change the sound in the way he's describing? You still haven't really responded to that. You just say "oh there's all these factors therefore we can't safely make a conclusion" even though you can make a safe conclusion. You just have to understand how things tend to work. To me it's at the very least obvious it was either output impedance or power, or a combination of both. 

 

[castleofargh]

  It is obvious that power makes a difference in output SQ. Voltage is not the only variable, current comes into play as well. This means, at the same power level, output SQ can be different depending on how much current and voltage is supplied. You should be able to see why an amplifier can make such a big difference at this point, especially with relatively low impedance headphones.

current, you mean like in the water?

bold sentence doesn't mean anything. if you change voltage and current, you change the power value into a given circuit.
 
this is getting silly, I explained why you shouldn't make one specific statement about the ER4SR without more evidence and you reply with a dysfunctional strawman argument about power in general.
 
here is a nice website about cherry picking correlations. http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations it's safe to say that the Nicolas Cage one is conclusive. it has to be.
 
 
and maybe this can help for electricity http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-11/power-resistive-reactive-ac-circuits/ or not.
 
if someone wants to send me the same cellphone I can do a few basic measurements into the er4sr when possible and into an equivalent load when it's not, and check if there is an obvious problem with that source. but about the er4sr itself, I've tried and measured a good deal of things already and my general opinion is that very few devices will lack enough power. they might still sound like crap but it will usually be for another reason.
 
 
 

  And castleofargh, I get your point, but for real, how would THD or any of those other factors change the sound in the way he's describing? You still haven't really responded to that. You just say "oh there's all these factors therefore we can't safely make a conclusion" even though you can make a safe conclusion. You just have to understand how things tend to work. To me it's at the very least obvious it was either output impedance or power, or a combination of both. 

obvious why? because it feels right? does it mean that as long as you have a given power and same impedance you expect every device to always sound the same? that would be underestimating the work of engineers a little bit ^_^. I tend to agree that appropriate power and good damping factor can go a long way in getting a transparent sound, but it's not like we can just go and blame those 2 variables for everything happening when trying 2 entirely different devices. even less so when we have measured nothing about those devices into the er4sr.
 
how a variable impacts how we feel is the domain of psycho acoustic and I've been off topic long enough already not to tackle something that huge in here seriously(also there is just so much I don't know ^_^). but as long as the resulting difference is loud enough to be perceived, it has the potential to impact how we'll feel. a THD value in itself doesn't mean anything aside from telling you a little something about how much a device fails at fidelity under a given set of conditions, you'll get different orders of distortions and the loudest part may be at different frequencies so you can't hope to make a direct link between good old THD value @1khz you see on amp specs, and how something will sound other than not being concerned by it if it's way low. 
at a personal level, subjective impressions from uncontrolled listening aren't exactly my favorite source of objective data. to put it mildly.

 

[TrantaLocked]

  everything happening

I don't think you've even read his comparison on amped vs unamped. He specifically mentioned a change in the 3dness of the soundstage. That isn't "everything happening," that is specific and significant. THD, signal to noise, crossover, whatever, would not cause that change. THD is just distortion in frequencies, it doesn't change fundamental aspects of the freq curve or sound staging, and even then the THD is going to be waaay under 1% on both his Galaxy S5 and FiiO. Signal to noise is just hissing or more distortion...nothing to do with sound stage presentation. Crossover shouldn't be a thing with most ok consumer equipment. There's also sampling rate, and that might have something to do with it if the S5 DAC is low bitrate but tbh as long as it's standard, which 99% sure it is, it wouldn't make much difference. This isn't how I feel, this is borderline common sense. 
 
At this point I think it's probably the S5 with strangely high output impedance, but power is probably a part of it. I just wish I could find the specs of the phone because I literally could not find a single thing on the audio output of the S5.
 
---------
 
Judging by innerfidelity's measurement sheet, the ER4SR/XR require up to about 5 mW for the loudest dB spikes (110) (got my initials calculations wrong). If the S5 has 5 or less mW of total output power, then it's also possible some clipping was involved. I'm still trying to learn exactly how voltage, amperage, power, sensitivity and sound quality relate. Is it possible to meet the power needs of the driver but still clip/distort if the driver needs more amperage but couldn't get it? I asked this question earlier, hope someone can answer.

 

[castleofargh]

Originally Posted by TrantaLocked /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
... THD, signal to noise, crossover, whatever, would not cause that change. THD is just distortion in frequencies, it doesn't change fundamental aspects of the freq curve or sound staging...

well you know things I don't if you're sure about that. but to be clear, power issues would alter some of those variables, distortions for sure. so I don't really get how for you, power can explain his impressions, but THD wouldn't?
but you could look for crosstalk, channel imbalance, or any of the multitude of other possibilities. why decide it has to be power? it's the racial profiling of audio variables. you lack subs? need more power. you don't have a great soundstage? must be power. you're late for your date, damn power, always jealous.
I'm defending the right for power to have fair trial. ^_^ #lameanalogiesarelame
the basis for positioning are ITD ILD and FR, but even then the brain will integrate whatever extra cues it will get at the same time and make it's own interpretation salsa. you can feel something at the same position but find it more or less precise/defined/... even vision can affect that, so I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss extra audio cues even if it's just noise.
 

 and even then the THD is going to be waaay under 1% on both his Galaxy S5 and FiiO.

I haven't seen any spec so I don't assume to know the THD values at a given voltage into about 45ohm, but yeah most likely it's fine and low at listening levels into such load. part of why I find the er4sr relatively easy to drive, most devices are built to at least offer passable signal resolution into 30ohm, and max or close to max volume output. lower loads can indeed be met with some current problems, where the IEM becomes real close to feel like a short circuit to the amp section. 
I get a mini of 45ohm at 20hz on my pair(I usually fall within 1 or 2 ohm of the actual value with my lowfi method), so current has little reason to be a problem into that IEM for most sources. and we've already established that voltage would let it go loud enough with most sources. that's why from the start I'm saying that power isn't likely to be an issue. out of all the stuff people can blame for sound differences, power is simply not the likely culprit. #stoppowerbullies ^_^
 
 

   
Judging by innerfidelity's measurement sheet, the ER4SR/XR require up to about 5 mW for the loudest dB spikes (110) (got my initials calculations wrong). If the S5 has 5 or less mW of total output power, then it's also possible some clipping was involved. I'm still trying to learn exactly how voltage, amperage, power, sensitivity and sound quality relate. Is it possible to meet the power needs of the driver but still clip/distort if the driver needs more amperage but couldn't get it? I asked this question earlier, hope someone can answer.

the values I gave are my own on my pair of er4sr. but yeah 5mw for 110db works for Tyll's values at 1khz. now if the S5 can't do 5mw into 45ohm without crapping it's cellphone pants(not that most people will listen that loud in practice), what's the point of it having a jack at all on this phone, it would fail on most IEMs. anyway, actual measurements into the same load as the er4sr, or some RMAA with the er4sr as load would tell a little more than random conjectures. I don't know what I don't know, and I've derailed the topic long enough.
my point was, don't claim what you're not actually sure about. I didn't think it would be such a philosophy novelty.

 

[Voyageur]

 
ER-4B successor! Haters will say it's Paint. 

 

[CraftyClown]

 
 
ER-4B successor! Haters will say it's Paint. 

 
 
lol. Nice work

 

[ETYHeadRick]

Hi Folks:
 
Sorry to side-step the current conversation, but I've had quite a few requests to notify everyone when we put replacement cables for the new ER4 models on the website. They're now available to ship at http://www.etymotic.com/consumer/accessories/er4-new.html.
 
Thank you!

 

[TrantaLocked]

  well you know things I don't if you're sure about that. but to be clear, power issues would alter some of those variables, distortions for sure. so I don't really get how for you, power can explain his impressions, but THD wouldn't?
but you could look for crosstalk, channel imbalance, or any of the multitude of other possibilities. why decide it has to be power? it's the racial profiling of audio variables. you lack subs? need more power. you don't have a great soundstage? must be power. you're late for your date, damn power, always jealous.
I'm defending the right for power to have fair trial. ^_^ #lameanalogiesarelame
the basis for positioning are ITD ILD and FR, but even then the brain will integrate whatever extra cues it will get at the same time and make it's own interpretation salsa. you can feel something at the same position but find it more or less precise/defined/... even vision can affect that, so I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss extra audio cues even if it's just noise.
 
I haven't seen any spec so I don't assume to know the THD values at a given voltage into about 45ohm, but yeah most likely it's fine and low at listening levels into such load. part of why I find the er4sr relatively easy to drive, most devices are built to at least offer passable signal resolution into 30ohm, and max or close to max volume output. lower loads can indeed be met with some current problems, where the IEM becomes real close to feel like a short circuit to the amp section. 
I get a mini of 45ohm at 20hz on my pair(I usually fall within 1 or 2 ohm of the actual value with my lowfi method), so current has little reason to be a problem into that IEM for most sources. and we've already established that voltage would let it go loud enough with most sources. that's why from the start I'm saying that power isn't likely to be an issue. out of all the stuff people can blame for sound differences, power is simply not the likely culprit. #stoppowerbullies ^_^
 
 
the values I gave are my own on my pair of er4sr. but yeah 5mw for 110db works for Tyll's values at 1khz. now if the S5 can't do 5mw into 45ohm without crapping it's cellphone pants(not that most people will listen that loud in practice), what's the point of it having a jack at all on this phone, it would fail on most IEMs. anyway, actual measurements into the same load as the er4sr, or some RMAA with the er4sr as load would tell a little more than random conjectures. I don't know what I don't know, and I've derailed the topic long enough.
my point was, don't claim what you're not actually sure about. I didn't think it would be such a philosophy novelty.

I've already been considering the output impedance as the main factor rather than just power, and then in my last post I said it's most likely output impedance, but that power may have something to do with it. You're responding to a post way back in the conversation it seems?
 
Originally, I forgot that output impedance regardless of supplied power is the cause of bad damping leading to changes in FR and loose but rolled-off bass. I guess I was thinking the reason the bass-roll of happens is because a lack of power into a higher impedance (I was adding output and input impedance together) but no, it's the output impedance regardless of power. Low power just leads to clipping, which shouldn't change overall frequency response or sound staging but will act as a form of distortion.
 
Could you explain to me why you need more current going into a lower impedance headphone? I couldn't understand this when I was looking into it. Doesn't this simply mean the ratio of voltage to amperage needs to lean more toward amperage for low impedance headphones? And if so, why?
 
----
 
Found a technical review on the S5. I initially dismissed it because it doesn't include output impedance, but at least it goes over output power and THD, among other tests. Output power into 45 ohm should be 7 mw, so there's potential for clipping at really high volume or for 115 db spikes but it should be clean 99% of the time. THD+N is under 1%. Frequency response is flat with a tiny bit of roll-off in sub bass. So I'm thinking output impedance is something garbage like 10+ ohm. I don't feel like the difference between my 8 ohm X-Fi Go! Pro and 1 ohm Sansa Clip+ is that huge, but there is a noticeable amount of extra warmth plus lack of the fluttering bass with the Clip+ but not much change in sound stage, so that's where I'm getting the 10+ ohm figure from. Btw, if someone could provide me the output power spec of the X-Fi Go! Pro I'd appreciate it. 
 
What's funny is that he was using his FiiO with the Galaxy S5. That means any of those other factors like THD and crossover will be included with the amped sound as long as he's doing analog amping. So WhatToChoose, are you analog or DAC amping your S5?