If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...
Jul 25, 2016 at 4:22 PM Post #8,836 of 19,252
I ordered the Ety Kids 5 headphones last night. At $39, I just couldnt resist! 
  
I always left the EQ off on my previous ety's, I never felt the need to use it... But Im starting to wonder if a good high quality parametric EQ would be helpful to the fidelity overall? I noticed the MK5/Ety kids have a bit of a spike at 6 khz and 2.5 khz. The 2.5 khz spike is part of the target curve, but the mk5 is still slightly hot in that region vs. target, which should be easy to remove.... What are your thought on using EQ EtyDave?
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 5:34 PM Post #8,837 of 19,252
I don't need body born vibrations. I just want to hear clear bass notes and accurate attack. Seems nearly impossible at times and great at others. Likely too many variables from the beginning. Starts with the player, strings, mic, connectors, cables, recording engineer, tubes, tape, re-master, then to the listening gear all the way to the physiology of the person listening. One thing I'll say is bass impact to me is a moot point with iems. As well as a dramatic emotional response. Again this is for me. If I am reacting too emotionally to music with iems I may have them too loud. One of the great things about iems, particularly the er4s line is the ability to keep the volume low and hear all the musical information. To me I find I can enjoy it more this way over time.


In my opinion the mastering or re-mastering of an album can be the single most important, and thus single most destructive stage in making music for listening. Perhaps as an audio engineer I'm a bit biased.

But take bass for instance. As you compress or limit an album to make it louder you destroy the dynamics between loud and soft sounds. If a 1970s progressive rock album has a great "pounding" bass line in the studio, that will come through in a good earphone. Maybe not "the same" way as some speakers, but it will come through. This is assuming you are hearing what they heard in the studio.

That is very very rare today. You can't even say "well this is a cd from the 80s, so it sounds better." An original, non-remastered cd? Sure, that may sound great. But most greatest hits and remasters, even if they are labeled re-releases of original albums and not exaclty remasters, have in fact been remastered. Usually this is not for the better. It is of course possible, but rare.

I would estimate eoughlt 80-90% of remasters I've heard are nothing more than making the music louder, noise reducing "hiss", or applying EQ. Again, rarely this might be beneficial, but typically it is completely unnecessary and only harms the quality of the audio.

Back to the bass though. If the bass is "peaking out" from the rest of the music because it is a bit more dynamic in the mix and a bit louder than the overall guitars for instance... When you compress or limit that overall music, the bass is squished down to being the same volume as the guitars and other things are also brought to be closer to the same overall level. Therefore not only is the dynamic peaking of the bass squished, but by bringing it to a similar volume as the other instruments and making everything sound more "similar" you lose that "pounding" bass line they worked so hard to mix at the studio.

No matter what speaker or earphone you listen to the song on, the studio version will have pounding bass, the remaster or simply "mastered" version on CD will sound worse, or at least not what the artist intended.

The point I'm trying to make really is that the earphones are only as good as the music you put through them. I'm not saying everyone listens to junk masters, espeically given that this is an er4 thread, which shows most people are picky about their listening. However, it is not always easy to know if an album could sound better unless you've heard the better version. I search for the best master of a cd when i purchase it, and often times the better master sounds noticeabley better. So what often happens is people prefer more colored earphones, because they are listening to less colored music (in a bad way). The compressed songs lack the "color" or life that they had before being compressed. Boosting bass and treble gives the impression of more dynamic energy and openness. So it's easy to see why a lot of people prefer these v shaped earphone signatures. But correcting for poorly mastered music by having less than ideal frequency response will never sound as good as fixing the mastered music to begin with...

I have actually heard albums where one remaster was compressed and EQ'd to be brighter to compensate for the comrpession (long story on mastering) and the original uncompressed master sounded more "real" and spacious and naturally bright, even though the treble was lower. The added dynamics just improved the song that much.

AAAAaaaaaaanyway.... The point of my point is this... This point which belongs to me is as follows. Ahem. Ahem. This is how it goes. Ahem. Ahem. The next thing that I am about to say is my point... Ahem. Ready?...

The er4s bass is excellent, and with the right recording and mastering, the er4s renders bass incredibly well. A touch more sub bass? Sure... But overall, I've never heard anything that sounds so accurate as the er4sr compared to a studio monitor. I can't say why or how, but I've compared a lot of headphones and earphones, and the more I compare the more i feel this is true. While not exactly the same as a studio monitor speaker in "sound", more bass doesn't make it sound closer to a speaker to me. Even the er4xr is slightly, just slightly, too much bass. But because it brings up the sub bass as well, and not overly boosting things, it still sounds excellent.

But the sr is phenominal. Bass and all. It may not have an absolutely perfect response, but relative to other earphones it almost does. Hehe. I highly recommend feeding your new er4sr the best mastered audio you can. It will thank you for it by providing you with the great quality sound you should come to expect of them. :)
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 7:04 PM Post #8,838 of 19,252
  I ordered the Ety Kids 5 headphones last night. At $39, I just couldnt resist! 
  
I always left the EQ off on my previous ety's, I never felt the need to use it... But Im starting to wonder if a good high quality parametric EQ would be helpful to the fidelity overall? I noticed the MK5/Ety kids have a bit of a spike at 6 khz and 2.5 khz. The 2.5 khz spike is part of the target curve, but the mk5 is still slightly hot in that region vs. target, which should be easy to remove.... What are your thought on using EQ EtyDave? 

 
EQ, is a great real-time, non-destructive way of playing with music.  I say have fun with it.
 
Just curious, how are you measuring them?  A peak at 6kHz is fairly unusual for that model.
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 7:18 PM Post #8,839 of 19,252
Hi Luisdent,
 
This is the second time you have mentioned how important the mastering on an album is recently, and I have been meaning to respond.  Where do you go for non-compressed source material (I mean non-compressed in the loudness wars sense, not file compression)?  When you are in a store, how do you pick, simply by ear?  If you were buying music online, how would you go about it?
 
 
Thank you,
Dave
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 8:07 PM Post #8,840 of 19,252
I would also like to know how you find the "best masters". As a hobbyist engineer I completely understand what you're saying. And know that in the days of lp's there were different masters. But aside from modern remastered albums, is there any difference in most music produced these days?
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 9:09 PM Post #8,841 of 19,252
   
EQ, is a great real-time, non-destructive way of playing with music.  I say have fun with it.
 
Just curious, how are you measuring them?  A peak at 6kHz is fairly unusual for that model.

Im going off several measurements from reviews I found online, which may or may not be accurate... Which frequencies and at what Q factor would you say the Ety Kids or MK5 could use EQ correction?
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 9:19 PM Post #8,842 of 19,252
Some of the best things I've heard on my er4s are original mono pressings on Savoy, Blue Note, Prestige, Capitol etc. To me, bass is the most common victim as a master tape gets reused/as music gets re mastered. May not be the tape, but it seems very hard to pinpoint the feeling of the original pressing for some reason. Can it be improved upon, sure, possibly, but that is also where the most problems arise and things just get worse. Nitpicking, and I cannot afford some of my favorite records' first run/pressings, but I have enough and have done enough research to make the call. I've also compared several of the newer
reissues. Which I think can be good. Still don't hear the realism of the bass that I hear on a 1st or second run Prestige or Blue note record recorded by Rudy V.G. Maybe it's because mastering engineers are not used to what gut strings sound like due to their experience with current musicians? I don't know. I have had some moments of nirvana listening to records with the er4s right out of my integrated amp.
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 9:21 PM Post #8,843 of 19,252
I would also like to know how you find the "best masters". As a hobbyist engineer I completely understand what you're saying. And know that in the days of lp's there were different masters. But aside from modern remastered albums, is there any difference in most music produced these days?


This Web site is a good starting point: http://dr.loudness-war.info
 
Jul 25, 2016 at 11:11 PM Post #8,845 of 19,252
I have the luxury of being able to have a raw uncompressed audio recording loaded into an audio editor on a PC. I can "hard-limit" that recording as much as I want in what amounts I want.
 
Spending time just doing that, is ear school.
 
I'm the noob from about 100 pages back, who was blown away by these Etys ( which turned out to be the PG ).
 
As great sounding as they are, I do feel very vulnerable moving around with them stuck in my ears. They seem to stick out a long way, and have a worryingly deep lever point if I get one caught on something. I always end up choosing to wear the cables up over my ears, so that makes a cable loop that sticks out too.
 
I saw in this thread a while back, a photo showing a very deeply inserted ER4. I don't think I've ever dared to insert mine so deep. What am I not doing right ?
 
I'm sure the main "whaw" factor is that it's my first ever BA earphone experience. I'm still not really happy with tips and fit. I'm about to spend some time listening to a couple of sets of 96/24 ambient recordings in my garden. The Etys are it, for this job.
 
Jul 26, 2016 at 4:22 AM Post #8,846 of 19,252
  Looking forward to your impressions!

They arrive thursday. I'm a bit anxious about this. Thinking about this buy, this is probably the most expensive IEM around, knowing that it only has 1 BA driver. I know that this doesn't mean much regarding sound, but 400 Euro that I paid for a single driver. Looking this way, it's expensive. Even the Custom Art Music One is cheaper than this and it's custom, and ljokerl rates them similarly with a 9.2. And he says it sounds more "natural than ER4S thanks to it's thicker, fuller sound" That's really why I bought XR now, really because of this, I need sound to have a live like weight. I'm expecting to be amazed with XR, especially by his timbre and natural reproduction. Or is going back, even my 3 BA driver Earsonics SM64 costs the same as this (well less now), and it's ranked among the best under 500, at least, as a "consumer product for the masses". Don't know, I imagine what makes this special, but really want to feel it. I believe I'm able to do it, my background it's reasonable. But for 400 Euro and a single driver, it must be special, everyone here is certainly not nuts. Well, there is a guy in thread that said this is nothing special, but I don't know if he is nuts or not so...lol I just bought a 12 BA total driver IEM, so this really needs to show its own speciality. That's why I bought it, I'm not looking for all rounders, but for IEMs with a very noticeable own speciality.
 A touch more sub bass? Sure... But overall, I've never heard anything that sounds so accurate as the er4sr compared to a studio monitor.
Even the er4xr is slightly, just slightly, too much bass. But because it brings up the sub bass as well, and not overly boosting things, it still sounds excellent.

About XR: hearing this from a sound engineer tells me the bass should be perfect (hope it's not too low quantity lol) for everyone else not a sound engineer :D (preferences apart of course)
 
Jul 26, 2016 at 5:30 AM Post #8,847 of 19,252
This Web site is a good starting point: http://dr.loudness-war.info


Cool site, and thanks for the link, but I meant more, "I want to buy (insert artist's name) brand new album". Is there more than one master of newer albums? I know there's the whole "mastered for iTunes" thing, but from what I've read that's more about preparing it for the AAC conversion than necessarily to prevent over compression. Although their volume match does seem to average songs to about -14 dBFS. Which helps. I'm just curious if there really are different masters aside from that. I know in the LP days the pressing plant is who mastered the album. So you could get varying masters depending on which plant produced the album. I just figured in today's world there was only one master. But would love to be wrong and there be less compressed masters available of the same album.
 
Jul 26, 2016 at 5:34 AM Post #8,848 of 19,252
And on to another slightly OT subject, that came up a bit back. Talking about the sub bass and bass impact in general. Anyone here try the Subpac with your ety's. http://subpac.com/subpac-m2/
 
I'm very intrigued and think this could help with the "lacking" low end. I've been doing some listening and the ety's do extend lower than I realized, but it's not as revealing as I would like. My Flare R2's reveal bloat that the ety's don't. Thinking something like this could help emphasize the low end. Any thoughts?
 
Jul 26, 2016 at 6:16 AM Post #8,849 of 19,252
I follow a few (8-10) threads on Head-Fi, but this one turns to the topic of mastering more than any of them. The credit likely goes to Ety for producing an IEM with such incredible fidelity that we can actually hear the differences between well and poorly mastered (and recorded) source material. There are albums in my library that rarely get played solely because the flaws in the source are so distracting. The flip side (pun intended) is that well mastered work is thrilling.
 
Cheers... Brian
 
Jul 26, 2016 at 9:49 AM Post #8,850 of 19,252
  I have the luxury of being able to have a raw uncompressed audio recording loaded into an audio editor on a PC. I can "hard-limit" that recording as much as I want in what amounts I want.
 
Spending time just doing that, is ear school.
 
I'm the noob from about 100 pages back, who was blown away by these Etys ( which turned out to be the PG ).
 
As great sounding as they are, I do feel very vulnerable moving around with them stuck in my ears. They seem to stick out a long way, and have a worryingly deep lever point if I get one caught on something. I always end up choosing to wear the cables up over my ears, so that makes a cable loop that sticks out too.
 
I saw in this thread a while back, a photo showing a very deeply inserted ER4. I don't think I've ever dared to insert mine so deep. What am I not doing right ?
 
I'm sure the main "whaw" factor is that it's my first ever BA earphone experience. I'm still not really happy with tips and fit. I'm about to spend some time listening to a couple of sets of 96/24 ambient recordings in my garden. The Etys are it, for this job.

the ear canal is like 2.5cm long on average.  so if you don't get stopped by the second bend or your bones, you can usually go way deep.
my own experience with swallow shallow insertion gives me a boost I'd say somewhere in the 8 to 10khz that really isn't great. IMO the IEM sounds way better when pushed a little deeper. no need to make it disappear like showed on ER4 pr0n pictures, but certainly using the typical insertion you use on other IEMs will result in a subpar signature.
 

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