[robm321]

hf5 is very nice for the price, but er4 is clearly the boss when it comes to fidelity and control.

Thats a good summary of the HF-5/3 vs ER4. I'm a big fan of the HF but an amped ER4 is definitely the boss.

 

[OJNeg]

Going back to the custom tips vs. tri-flanges question:
 
After a few listening sessions, I'm going to come around and agree that the customs don't sound as good with the ER-4S. I'm noticing the bass goes much deeper and is better sustained with the tri-flanges. Treble also seems to be more artificial sounding with the customs, though not necessarily louder in terms of quantity (as some have said). Overall, it seems to me that the customs are more diffuse or "distant" sounding, as opposed to the stock Ety sound which I generally associate with a more "in-your-face" studio monitor sort of sound. Tonally, they're still similar, and still retain most of the ER4S resolution and accuracy.
 
My customs make the ER4 around 3dB less sensitive. I tested this by ear with 1kHz test tones. If you're going for custom tips + P to S adapter + dynamic music, you're definitely going to need some sort of amplification to reach reference levels. Think voltage sensitivity on par with my HD600.
 
However, I don't think the same changes apply so much to the ER-4P. I haven't tested it as much as the 4S, so I won't make any final judgements. But from what I have played around with, the only thing that I think is overt (for customs on the 4P) is the loss of bass slam.

 

[imackler]

Now I have to preface this to say, I'm not sure I'm keeping my ER4S. My first thoughts last night were "Gah" and "Bleh." I actually thought the fanboys were out of their mind. But either I've gotten a better seal or I've gotten used to the sound, and while the bass was really disappointing at first, and is still different from other neutrail iems, the detail retrieval is shockingly good...even straight from my ipod classic. They can be musical...but then all of a sudden you hear something you've never heard before! I'm actually shocked. The ER4S unamped is revealing details I'd never heard on my HD600/O2.
 
What do you all find the improvement to be with a neutral amp? 

 

[JoeDoe]

  Now I have to preface this to say, I'm not sure I'm keeping my ER4S. My first thoughts last night were "Gah" and "Bleh." I actually thought the fanboys were out of their mind. But either I've gotten a better seal or I've gotten used to the sound, and while the bass was really disappointing at first, and is still different from other neutrail iems, the detail retrieval is shockingly good...even straight from my ipod classic. They can be musical...but then all of a sudden you hear something you've never heard before! I'm actually shocked. The ER4S unamped is revealing details I'd never heard on my HD600/O2.
 
What do you all find the improvement to be with a neutral amp? 

I've been running mine through my Arrow 4G (and 5.5 iPod) and I'm thoroughly enjoying them. I think that the sense of space is certainly improved and with the bass on level 2, treb on 1, and hi-gain... well, these guys just sing. You're absolutely right in that the detail I can now detect is just uncanny. After only two days, they're making me dissatisfied with my TF10s!

 

[robm321]

I can listen to the ER4S without an amp, but I'm so used to how they sound amped, that I notice how slow and deteriorated the sound becomes. I honestly wouldn't judge these at all unless you amp them. They are extremely fast, more detailed, more coherent with an amp. They are less of all those things without. 

 

[gnarlsagan]

To add my experience, I've found there to be no difference between using an amp and listening straight out of a Fuze. I've gone back and forth probably hundreds of times at this point. There really is no difference to my ears. Luisdent made an a/b switch and came to the same conclusion.

That's not to say other sources are powerful enough to drive the ER4S, but the Fuze definitely is. It can push the ER4S to well over 110dB. Other specs like distortion on the Fuze likely fall below auditory levels as well. That's not stopping me from picking up the new Leckerton amp anyway though haha.

 

[Solude]

I haven't compared my Zune to the Zune into the GS-X mk2 but... where the UM3X sounds ok out of the Zune it sound horrid out of the PWD/GS-X.  The ER-4PT on the other hand sounds amazing out of the PWD/GS-X combo.  Haven't truly used the LCD-3 since the Ety arrived and when I did... it sounded like a drop down... huh.

 

[luisdent]

To add my experience, I've found there to be no difference between using an amp and listening straight out of a Fuze. I've gone back and forth probably hundreds of times at this point. There really is no difference to my ears. Luisdent made an a/b switch and came to the same conclusion.

That's not to say other sources are powerful enough to drive the ER4S, but the Fuze definitely is. It can push the ER4S to well over 110dB. Other specs like distortion on the Fuze likely fall below auditory levels as well. That's not stopping me from picking up the new Leckerton amp anyway though haha.

 
I agree completely.  I have to be honest, just look back at my posts in this thread.  I swore the amp I was using added a bit of depth and separating to the sound.  Once I made my a/b switch and did a volume matched comparison of multiple tracks of various kinds, I find that the sound is identical.  If there is a different, I can't hear it under perfect conditions.  This was using the fuze compared to the fuze with a c5 amp.  I also compared the fuze to my high end apogee computer interface.  No difference.
 
I used to listen to the iPod classic 7g and found the sound quality excellent.  It isn't super powerful, but it handles the eras with most music with no problem.  I would guess that there is no difference there either or an extremely small difference if your running a song at max volume and switch to an amp.  I will have to test this once my current ear infection goes away.  I pray that my hearing changes aren't permanent from this.  OMG I will freak out.
 
Anyway, I know people will disagree, but unless an amp is colored in some way, which some may prefer, I don't believe there is a difference with something like the fuze or a good iPod (i've read they are not all equal, but have never heard a difference between the models I've had).  The biggest change in the er4s sound is definitely tips and fit.  This can make a huge difference.  I literally still heard differences in the sound after months of getting used to the tips and continuously getting a deep fit.  My rule of thumb is that you should be able to wear them deep enough to wear the cable down and have the cable right against your ear.  If it isn't that deep it could sound better.
 
Comply tips help the treble if you find it sibilant or "hot".  The sty foam do not.  They are not the same type of foam.  The second recommendation is the red filters.  I can't stress how good they sound if you're not using eq.  They give a slight (very slight) sense of fuller bass while removing pretty much only the bad aspects of the treble or mid/treble.  The slight bumps in the frequency response are tamed and everything sounds excellent.  I wouldn't write them off so easily until you really really give the fit a lot of time.  You think they fit and sound right, but they could improve in time.  Also, the filters are so cheap you really owe it to yourself to at least try them.  If I didn't use eq ever and only had green filters and silicon tips I'd find the sound a bit hard on the ears most of the times.  Not really in a bad way, but not as relaxing and comfortable to listen to as i'd like because of the 3k region being slightly boosted.
 
If I had no eq and the red filters this wouldn't ever be an issue.  In fact, they're the closes thing to flat "overall" i've heard without eq.  The green might technically be more accurate, and that's why i prefer green with eq, as there is only a slight eq change needed.  However, the red are very very close to the green in accuracy but without any of the trouble areas in the mid/treble.  As accurate as they are, the slight 3k area bump can make the whole sound a bit hard on the ears for some.  With the red this simply isn't there.  So even if the treble were to be a little less accurate (very little), they become easier to listen to and therefore you can appreciate what IS there more easily.
 
That's my opinion anyway...

 

[castleofargh]

I would love to argue a lot, but I can't as my obvious problem is not er4 amped or not, but fuze or not ^_^.
I've owned and will own some sansas for as long as they are produced, but I use them for convenience not as my main dap (and never did).
I can understand how it's a good combo as fuze and er4 have somehow the same kind of specifics. and that is, giving a rather small image of dimensions and volumes.
the er4 pinpoints the instruments in its so unique way, but the reverse effect is that each instrument occupies a very small space. the positioning is also a lot on the sides, variations are mostly in wideness and don't play as much as others in height and depth (I'm not arguing about who's right here). 
and then a sansa will simply present a small space (call that intimate). all my other daps give more space to the imaging, sometimes at the cost of other things, but the general idea is here.
now everybody has its own tastes. when I do love a good sens of depth, and really don't care for width, usually people are happy and call a soundstage huge as long as it goes far on the sides.
 
all this to say that for people looking for more "dimensions" to the sound, an amp is usually the way to go with er4, but not much with a fuze as the line out suffers from the same symptoms ^_^. (that's why I always say bad things of the fuze and always say at the same time that the clip is great)
and then most amps add a little warmth (and some bass) to the sound that could be nice on the er4 to most people.but I can't say if it's because of a better driving power or just a coloration of the signature.
I also usually felt that it mades the er4 behave better on symphony with loads of instruments, but I wouldn't swear that it's not just in my head for this one.
 
lastly I can give my own odd favorite experience with an er4. it's been with a RSA protector going with the "almost balanced" thing it does. that amp has a lot of limitations (it's super warm, not resolving at all, cuts the bass too soon, has no shielding against smartphones etc...) but the result with the er4 (they are some kind of opposites) was my single favorite memory of an er4. a nice 3D bubble-like positioning of the instruments. again don't get me wrong, I don't believe that to be the "right way" to present sounds on a headphone, but the most enjoyable for me, certainly.
 
so I'm all with the idea that amps can better your er4. but probably not much with a fuze so I agree with everybody \o/

 

[luisdent]

  I would love to argue a lot, but I can't as my obvious problem is not er4 amped or not, but fuze or not ^_^.
I've owned and will own some sansas for as long as they are produced, but I use them for convenience not as my main dap (and never did).
I can understand how it's a good combo as fuze and er4 have somehow the same kind of specifics. and that is, giving a rather small image of dimensions and volumes.
the er4 pinpoints the instruments in its so unique way, but the reverse effect is that each instrument occupies a very small space. the positioning is also a lot on the sides, variations are mostly in wideness and don't play as much as others in height and depth (I'm not arguing about who's right here). 
and then a sansa will simply present a small space (call that intimate). all my other daps give more space to the imaging, sometimes at the cost of other things, but the general idea is here.
now everybody has its own tastes. when I do love a good sens of depth, and really don't care for width, usually people are happy and call a soundstage huge as long as it goes far on the sides.
 
all this to say that for people looking for more "dimensions" to the sound, an amp is usually the way to go with er4, but not much with a fuze as the line out suffers from the same symptoms ^_^. (that's why I always say bad things of the fuze and always say at the same time that the clip is great)
and then most amps add a little warmth (and some bass) to the sound that could be nice on the er4 to most people.but I can't say if it's because of a better driving power or just a coloration of the signature.
I also usually felt that it mades the er4 behave better on symphony with loads of instruments, but I wouldn't swear that it's not just in my head for this one.
 
lastly I can give my own odd favorite experience with an er4. it's been with a RSA protector going with the "almost balanced" thing it does. that amp has a lot of limitations (it's super warm, not resolving at all, cuts the bass too soon, has no shielding against smartphones etc...) but the result with the er4 (they are some kind of opposites) was my single favorite memory of an er4. a nice 3D bubble-like positioning of the instruments. again don't get me wrong, I don't believe that to be the "right way" to present sounds on a headphone, but the most enjoyable for me, certainly.
 
so I'm all with the idea that amps can better your er4. but probably not much with a fuze so I agree with everybody \o/

 
I have to say I don't hear any difference using an a/b switch with the "width" "soundstage" or anything at all between my high end apogee computer interface, iPod touch with line out into the c5 and fuze direct.  These are all very high quality sources.  I can't say that no source is wider or doesn't sound better, but I think this needs to be taken relative to whatever device you think sounds "wide" or "tall".  In other words, as most of these devices I've listed are very high quality and one is ever considered reference music studio quality, then I would say that on most devices including a high quality audio interface, the er4s sounds identical.  In other other words  the fuze isn't any less wide, as I've heard some people say.  At least not compared to multiple high quality sources.  I think the er4s is less wide than some, but it's also a different presentation physically in your ear.  The iPod touch 5g has been measured with very high quality results and doesn't show any lack of width or any other specs.  Yet the fuze and iPod sound the same when I a/b them.
 
I would argue that most people would hear less difference, if any, than they think if they did a proper a/b test or better yet double blind test.  Again, I'm not saying that you don't have any amps or devices that don't have different audio properties, but rather that they may not be "better" but just different.  As you said it might not be the "right way" to preset the sound, but you enjoy it.  Some amps may use cross feed or other effects to "enhance" the audio.  Perhaps there are amps that widen the er4s as well, but in general I think the "small width" people here with the er4s is the er4s itself.  It is just a certain close small sound (in some ways, but not in others).
 
I can also see how a "warm" amp would probably sound excellent with the er4s to a lot of people, because it gives them body where they may sound lacking and smooths the treble where it may be a bit hot.  It's almost like having a hardware eq set in the amp.  If only someone designed an earphone that had multiple filters (read: more than one in each earpiece at the same time) that allowed you to adjust the mid/low/high by changing each regions filters.  Oh well, I can dream right?  

 

[musicbased]

luisdent, just wondering, did you try a/b between the HO of ipod touch and line out to C5?
I remember you mentioned about something weird going on with the high frequencies from the ipod or something?-Was it easier to tell with the a/b switch?

 

[robm321]

Luisdent, are you saying that no amp other than ones that color the sound make any difference with the ER4S. In other word, If I plug the ER4S into a $1,000 amp, it should sound the same as my phone? Or are you just talking about the Fuze vs the C5? I wouldn't argue with what you hear at all. I just find it interesting, because I find the ER4S to really change depending on the upstream gear from my personal experience. In fact, hooking it to a higher end home rig, the difference is night and day. Its not coloration but a huge jump in all areas. 
 
The ER4S scales tremendously well. If you read some of the older Ety threads, you will see countless comments on that. 

 

[Solude]

ER4 scales like crazy.  I'll say it again, UM3X sounds awful on the big rig, the ER4 sounds awesome, not used my LCD-3 since it got here, awesome.  Could do without the microphonic cable though.

 

[brunk]

I also agree on the ER-4S scaling with better amps. It's not a huge difference, but it's clearly audible.

 

[Jupiterknight]

After I received my Centrance M8 I must also admit that my ER4-S took a nice leap in presentation vs. using my iPod Classic HO and also when compared to iPod Classic amped with the Arrow 4G or the Aune T1 desktop DAC/Amp.
 
What I mainly experienced was an increase in the depth of the sound stage more than the width which all together also improved the imaging overall (that beforehand already was more than excellent!).
 
So by how much did I exactly experience this improvement? That's a completely subjective experience and it would very likely be different to the next guy in line if I started using percentages since that could go anywhere between 0-100%. 
 
I think that it to me at least was worth the relative, way, much higher price that I paid for the M8 vs. using the ER4-S with the HO of an iPod or my Sansa Clip Zip (anout this unit I will say is clearly one my best value purchases I have right now) and I use it just as much as the M8 combo but for very different reasons!!  
 
Anyhow, what I experience or anyone else regarding throwing a much more expensive amp to the ER4-S equation is not something I would recommend for everyone else because it is simply not worth the same to everyone. I do on my own account believe that there is an improvement to be found as others have experienced as well ( if small or large will be up to the individual to decide ) but we all have to be realistic if it is truly worth it?  One thing that I certainly like to point out that is this is not the case for everyone.
 
So my point is that I do believe that the ER4-S can scale up when combined with a more expensive amp. I don't believe that any given expensive amp that will achieve the same result but it is possible and yet we won't experience the same..