[mark88888]

Lots of options!
Castleofargh... am I understanding your point correctly that... with the HF5, the difference between the Sansa Clip and a high end player would be immediately apparent because of the noise, but with the ER4 series, in fact the players would be LESS distinguishable?
 
The SONY seems like an excellent player.  The ibasso looks very cool (why did you say 'dont shoot'?)
 
The Fiio was also mentioned.  Is this is great player?
https://www.amazon.com/X3-II-Resolution-Music-Player-Generation/dp/B00VR5JHVK/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1468258085&sr=1-5&keywords=fiio
I like the size and look of it...
 
All this said it seems like the more significant upgrade will be ER4PT to the XR/SR, as opposed to upgrading the player.  As the Sansa Clip+ is actually pretty good.  Correct me if Im wrong on that though.  

 
 
* I see there are also Fiio X5 and X7!!  OMG it never ends.  I should stick with the Clip+, eh...

 

[castleofargh]

Quote:

Yes that's the sony.

I get no noise on my a17 with er4 of any model.

I don't get any background noises on my sansa either, although I've heard some people do and it's inconsistent. So i guess price might also get you more consistent quality control...

But yes, certain earphones can bring out noise on players that are less than perfect. But i use a shure srh949, er4s/sr/xr, pfe-112 and a few others and the sony a17 is the best portable I've heard so far for the price. And the $300 gets you 64gb with an sd slot.

A lot of people complain, but i absolutely love the interface. There are a few small things like playlists that are different, but i love it overall. 50 hour battery is great. It is very small and light. And while not as small as the clip i find it more easy to use in the hand.

There may be other players, but at $300 retail i think it's a great deal. The sansa clip is too though.

I still use the sony the most. but I'm an audiobook binger and the separated gestion, resume function for any and all podcasts, plus speed control really does it for me.
with fancy 1000$ high sensitivity/weird impedance multidriver IEMs, sony really isn't the brand I would suggest as being ideal. not low noise floor, not low impedance or good amp section.  with the ER4SR, I admit I'm very satisfied with the result.

I agree with both. You can take a great DAP and connect gen 1. apple earbuds and hear no difference between the two DAPS's. If you connect a high revealing IEM you can hear the sound signature between the two DAP's, I know I can. All else is true too. Noise floor and etc all add into it all also. You are both right.

of course having actual good ears and clean IEM doesn't hurt. sorry if I gave that impression. I was just saying how much of a h4xor I am

when it comes to testing sources,  and how some things could be misleading/hints.

 

[AnyDave]

  Funny, when you look on their website the NEW! ER4's have 5 Star Rating.
 

 
When you click on the product to go into the products description information page, there are no reviews.
 

 
That is pretty funny.  That's got to be a default setting on the web software or something.  Or we just are assuming everybody is *really* going to like them a lot. 

 

[Traveller]

most of the time what you need to tell DAPs apart...  
...another easy cue with the right IEM would be impedance variation. the bigger the impedance swing on the IEM and the lower it gets in ohm, the bigger the frequency response change when plugged into something like a 4ohm A10 or a 2ohm fiio X1 or a 1ohm sansa clip or 0.6ohm or my O2.  with my IE80 I can't say shiit about that particular variable as it's impedance response is flat. with my JH13 on the other hand, if the low end goes quieter, then the source has more impedance and it's relatively easy to notice.
 
the last cue can be caps at the DAP output(it's a protection, not a plague!!!!). with ludicrously low impedance IEMs, it will result in a sub roll off. and then a higher impedance IEM(in the low end, not just @1khz) doesn't sound as rolled off, then bingo, there are caps. hinted in my sentence, the ideal IEM for devices with caps are those without a high impedance as the subs will not be as affected.
 
the er4s with 100ohm is a very safe bet too as long as we can go loud enough, it makes it relatively easy for the source.

Thanks for a very informative post! Just a few questions, if I may...
 
Impedance variation; Many IEM manufactures publish impedance at a standard fixed frequency (1KHz?) How do you manage to determine if a given IEM has a flat impedance response or otherwise without detailed measurements offered by the likes of a Stereophile review? Somewhere I read that a "starting point" is the DAPs output impedance should be 1/8th of the IEM's input impedance. This confirms your point that anything will pair with the older 100ohm ER-4S/P and most likely the new (32ohm?) editions. But say, an IEM such as my Angie (and maybe your JH13) will need to be carefully paried, given their 17ohm impedance and using the 1/8 ratio, the DAP must have a max of 2ohms impedance.

What is your definition of "ludicrously low impedance" (re. IEMs)?
 
P.S. The Mojo DAC has an impedance of 0.075 ohms... that sucker should be able to pair with any IEM ever made, lol!

 

[castleofargh]

  Lots of options!
Castleofargh... am I understanding your point correctly that... with the HF5, the difference between the Sansa Clip and a high end player would be immediately apparent because of the noise, but with the ER4 series, in fact the players would be LESS distinguishable?
 
The SONY seems like an excellent player.  The ibasso looks very cool (why did you say 'dont shoot'?)
 
The Fiio was also mentioned.  Is this is great player?
https://www.amazon.com/X3-II-Resolution-Music-Player-Generation/dp/B00VR5JHVK/ref=sr_1_5?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1468258085&sr=1-5&keywords=fiio
I like the size and look of it...
 
All this said it seems like the more significant upgrade will be ER4PT to the XR/SR, as opposed to upgrading the player.  As the Sansa Clip+ is actually pretty good.  Correct me if Im wrong on that though.  

 
 
* I see there are also Fiio X5 and X7!!  OMG it never ends.  I should stick with the Clip+, eh...

yes that was my point, as the hf5 is more sensitive, the noise floor will be that much louder.
I made this lame post trying to explain what and why in a "simple" way http://www.head-fi.org/t/777273/whats-that-idiot-castleofargh-always-talking-about-a-dap-hissing-i-cant-hear-a-thing
but with me 1+1 always becomes a 10 pages struggle

. pedagogy 1 - castleofargh 0
 
now we're talking mostly obvious and audible performance here. it's always possible to get a better source, a better amp and end up with better overall performances. it's not as if all sources had the fidelity of a sansa clip.  that of course would be a lie. but it can sound reasonably transparent with the right IEM(like many other DAPs).

 

[Hi-Fi'er]

   
That is pretty funny.  That's got to be a default setting on the web software or something.  Or we just are assuming everybody is *really* going to like them a lot. 

Right?

 > "we just are assuming everybody is *really* going to like them a lot"

 

[luisdent]

I don't use podcasts or any fancy features. I literally use it just to listen to albums. With that said, the player isn't perfect for everyone. It just works perfectly for me.

The noise floor is the biggest concern on any small low power player. However, the a17 puts out about the same volume as an iPhone 6. There will always be headphones that demand more power or specs, but that doesn't make it a bad player.

And it has a very low output impedance. I'd have to find it again, but im pretty sure it was below 1ohm.

Anyhow, the main reason i brought it up was that we both used sansa and an er4. And the a17 is better quality in blind testing than the sansa with even the srh940. So i was just recommending it in that scope

 

[castleofargh]

 

most of the time what you need to tell DAPs apart...  
...another easy cue with the right IEM would be impedance variation. the bigger the impedance swing on the IEM and the lower it gets in ohm, the bigger the frequency response change when plugged into something like a 4ohm A10 or a 2ohm fiio X1 or a 1ohm sansa clip or 0.6ohm or my O2.  with my IE80 I can't say shiit about that particular variable as it's impedance response is flat. with my JH13 on the other hand, if the low end goes quieter, then the source has more impedance and it's relatively easy to notice.
 
the last cue can be caps at the DAP output(it's a protection, not a plague!!!!). with ludicrously low impedance IEMs, it will result in a sub roll off. and then a higher impedance IEM(in the low end, not just @1khz) doesn't sound as rolled off, then bingo, there are caps. hinted in my sentence, the ideal IEM for devices with caps are those without a high impedance as the subs will not be as affected.
 
the er4s with 100ohm is a very safe bet too as long as we can go loud enough, it makes it relatively easy for the source.

Thanks for a very informative post! Just a few questions, if I may...
 
Impedance variation; Many IEM manufactures publish impedance at a standard fixed frequency (1KHz?) How do you manage to determine if a given IEM has a flat impedance response or otherwise without detailed measurements offered by the likes of a Stereophile review? Somewhere I read that a "starting point" is the DAPs output impedance should be 1/8th of the IEM's input impedance. This confirms your point that anything will pair with the older 100ohm ER-4S/P and most likely the new (32ohm?) editions. But say, an IEM such as my Angie (and maybe your JH13) will need to be carefully paried, given their 17ohm impedance and using the 1/8 ratio, the DAP must have a max of 2ohms impedance.

What is your definition of "ludicrously low impedance"?

ok I swear I stop hijacking the topic after that one(or maybe I won't, but remember I'm trying! ^_^).
 
you can find many impedance curves on websites like innerfidelity, goldenears and a few other places.
 
my definition of ludicrously low impedance

the lowest IEM I have measured yet (lower graph is impedance upper is phase)
or as a school case I guess the shure SE846 http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSE846BlackFilterSampleB.pdf  is a very valid candidate. man I love the sound of that IEM, but I'll never buy it because I don't want to have to use my external amp 100% of the time just to get that particular sound.

 

[castleofargh]

Spoiler: sony A10 impedance

I don't use podcasts or any fancy features. I literally use it just to listen to albums. With that said, the player isn't perfect for everyone. It just works perfectly for me.

The noise floor is the biggest concern on any small low power player. However, the a17 puts out about the same volume as an iPhone 6. There will always be headphones that demand more power or specs, but that doesn't make it a bad player.

And it has a very low output impedance. I'd have to find it again, but im pretty sure it was below 1ohm.

Anyhow, the main reason i brought it up was that we both used sansa and an er4. And the a17 is better quality in blind testing than the sansa with even the srh940. So i was just recommending it in that scope

I measured 3.33 ohm on my A15, headphoniaks measured 4.04ohm(no doubt they have better gear than I do so I'd trust them before me)

 

[luisdent]

Spoiler: sony A10 impedance

I don't use podcasts or any fancy features. I literally use it just to listen to albums. With that said, the player isn't perfect for everyone. It just works perfectly for me.


The noise floor is the biggest concern on any small low power player. However, the a17 puts out about the same volume as an iPhone 6. There will always be headphones that demand more power or specs, but that doesn't make it a bad player.


And it has a very low output impedance. I'd have to find it again, but im pretty sure it was below 1ohm.


Anyhow, the main reason i brought it up was that we both used sansa and an er4. And the a17 is better quality in blind testing than the sansa with even the srh940. So i was just recommending it in that scope

I measured 3.33 ohm on my A15, headphoniaks measured 4.04ohm(no doubt they have better gear than I do so I'd trust them before me)

I'd have to look around, but I won't buy a device with more than 1ohm output and I'm almost positive i verified that from a reliable source... Assuming the a15 and a17 are the same hardware.

 

[HiFiChris]

 
 
my definition of ludicrously low impedance

the lowest IEM I have measured yet [...]

 
Wowza!
 
What IEM was that if I might ask?

 

[Hi-Fi'er]

So I have a question. Can anyone who has an ER4 or has heard them provide what other IEM the ER4 closely compare/resemble in sound signature? I don't care if it's a dynamic or balanced, dual or single driver, anything is game. I would love to see what people say. 

 

[luisdent]

So I have a question. Can anyone who has an ER4 or has heard them provide what other IEM the ER4 closely compare/resemble in sound signature? I don't care if it's a dynamic or balanced, dual or single driver, anything is game. I would love to see what people say. 

Pfe 112 is similar, uerm is similar enough custom wise, zero audio carbo tenor is very very similar but bass fluctuates between pairs...

But one man's similar is abother man's completely different. I say these are all similar because they are all very neutral in tone and have no major objectionable frequncy flaws. They are all similar in the bass being more reference. The tenore is probably the best sub bass. The pfe the most comfortable, the uerm the most... Custom? but the er4sr is the most refined of all of them... The pfe has a bit more of a 10khz peak, but it doesn't sound objectionable as much as it makes the treble less accurate. But even then, the pfe treble is superb overall with comply tips.

You can see the overall sound is similar between the er4 and pfe. People seem to have different opinions of this difference, but I'd say the pfe is one of the closesr ro the er4 overall, but the er4 is better.

 

[Hi-Fi'er]

Pfe 112 is similar, uerm is similar enough custom wise, zero audio carbo tenor is very very similar but bass fluctuates between pairs...

But one man's similar is abother man's completely different. I say these are all similar because they are all very neutral in tone and have no major objectionable frequncy flaws. They are all similar in the bass being more reference. The tenore is probably the best sub bass. The pfe the most comfortable, the uerm the most... Custom? but the er4sr is the most refined of all of them... The pfe has a bit more of a 10khz peak, but it doesn't sound objectionable as much as it makes the treble less accurate. But even then, the pfe treble is superb overall with comply tips.

You can see the overall sound is similar between the er4 and pfe. People seem to have different opinions of this difference, but I'd say the pfe is one of the closesr ro the er4 overall, but the er4 is better.

Thank you.

 

[Jonoh]

  So I have a question. Can anyone who has an ER4 or has heard them provide what other IEM the ER4 closely compare/resemble in sound signature? I don't care if it's a dynamic or balanced, dual or single driver, anything is game. I would love to see what people say. 

 
Go to:
http://theheadphonelist.com/headphone_review/etymotic-research-er-4s/
 
 -- and --
 
http://theheadphonelist.com/2015-holiday-buyers-guide-the-most-gift-worthy-earphones-for-audiophiles-and-music-lovers/#balanced
 
Read the comments for more earphone comparisons. 
 
 
These are for the ER4S but the new models are in the same sound signature category.