If you still love Etymotic ER4, this is the thread for you...
Jun 16, 2016 at 6:45 PM Post #8,206 of 19,272
FWIW, while the accuracy score is unique to Etymotic, the target curve isn't really.  Years ago we found that Tomlinson Holman from THX had a nearly identical target.  Others use it as well.
 
Now, that isn't so that it is what they would consider an ideal response.  That is subjective in nature.  Our target is based on what is effectively a flat response when you take into account the acoustics of the human ear. 
 
Jun 16, 2016 at 6:48 PM Post #8,207 of 19,272
FWIW, while the accuracy score is unique to Etymotic, the target curve isn't really.  Years ago we found that Tomlinson Holman from THX had a nearly identical target.  Others use it as well.

Now, that isn't so that it is what they would consider an ideal response.  That is subjective in nature.  Our target is based on what is effectively a flat response when you take into account the acoustics of the human ear. 

Right. Yours is based on science although I've reas about the testing they did early on and some consider it subjective also. So the er4 is almost a mix of methods... I think it is the best compromise on hitting a great target
 
Jun 16, 2016 at 7:06 PM Post #8,208 of 19,272
Right. Yours is based on science although I've reas about the testing they did early on and some consider it subjective also. So the er4 is almost a mix of methods... I think it is the best compromise on hitting a great target

 
Yeah, I suspect you are referring to target change we made a couple of decades ago.  The original ER4 (which is now the ER4B) was designed to fit the response of the ear, but most people thought it was bright because of the way CDs were mixed.  I don't have the data, but I'll have to dig it up.  In the end, the target was changed to compensate for that and the ER4S was designed to hit that new target as close as possible.  The target has since remained unchanged.
 
Jun 16, 2016 at 7:25 PM Post #8,210 of 19,272
While I greatly appreciate the upgrade option, I believe I will just order a new set and keep my current ones. The old ones are worth at least $75 to me for a back-up. Maybe once I realize I won't over use them, I will sell them to someone. Now to get out the wallet. :)
 
Jun 16, 2016 at 8:56 PM Post #8,211 of 19,272
Selling them yourself will almost always get you more. Trade ins are never smart in my opinion. As much as I appreciate the gesture, i would sell and then use the funds to pay for a large percentage of the newer model.
 
Jun 16, 2016 at 11:03 PM Post #8,213 of 19,272
   
 
OK, this sort of opens Pandora's Box of long winded forum posts, but I'll fight the urge to ramble on and try to keep it succinct.  I will qualify my response by noting that I am opinionated on this matter and my response reflects only my take on it; it's not any official company line.
 
For years, we've used the accuracy score for evaluation in development.  Long before I got here, actually.  It's a tremendously useful metric when designing and it is good for knowing how close we have come to the target curve.  I don't imagine we will ever stop using this as a development tool nor is our target curve likely to change.
That said, we're probably not going to put it on the main pages of our website anymore.  Why stop after all these years?  Well, basically, it's can be a bit confusing at times to some folks, especially when it's simply a percentage listed without reference.  To really understand what and why, it's better within the context of something like a white paper.  FWIW, I've been tasked with writing a white paper on exactly this; hopefully it won't take too long, although I need to fit it in among other responsibilities.
 
I mentioned it briefly earlier in the thread, but I'll expound on it a bit more here.  There are a couple issues with publishing the accuracy score in general:
 
1.  While Etymotic has used it for years, nobody else does.  It's our own metric and not an industry standard, so many customers don't know what it means relative to what else is out there.  For example, I've measured many many earphones over the years and the majority of them were sub 70% (and many significantly lower).  So if I take an HF5 with an average accuracy score of 85%, I could argue that it's higher fidelity than other, more expensive earphones.  By our metric, that would be a factual statement (note fidelity does not reflect preference at all, just pure accuracy).  I've actually wondered if publishing 85% accuracy for the HF5 hurt us or helped us.  85% sounds like a midrange "B" average, even if it is quite accurate compared to most of the field.

2. The other thing is that (I believe) the accuracy score tells you more and more the closer you get to 100%.  I feel very comfortable that I would like any earphone that had a score of 100%.  On the other hand, I may or may not like an earphone with an 80% accuracy score.  It really depends on where the inaccuracies lie.  A good example of this is the ER4XR.  It's accuracy score would be the same as the ER4SR except that we added a bit of a bass lift, which hurts it mathematically, even though I still think it sounds quite accurate. I think it sounds more accurate than the 4P because of where the earphone is accurate (the midrange and the high frequencies) but its accuracy score is lower.   The accuracy score is weighted but doesn't totally account for my preference.  I'd trade very low frequency accuracy for high frequency accuracy (which is a personal preference).  OTOH, midbass inaccuracy often drives me nuts, so I won't usually accept that.  
 
Another issue we run into is when two dissimilar earphones have the same accuracy score.  The HF5 has an average accuracy score of 85%. The MC5 also has an accuracy score of 85% on average.  This exact thing caused confusion with a friend of mine went to our site.  He called me and asked: "Can you explain to me why I would buy the HF5 instead of the MC5 when they have the same accuracy score and the HF5 is significantly more expensive?"  I was able to explain it to him, but he would've been confused if he hadn't had access to me.  The HF5 is more accurate in the midband than the MC5.  The peak is better centered at 2.7kHz and I think it sounds more natural.  The MC is flatter in other areas but the scores end up being about the same.  The accuracy score is useful in that it tells you that they both are very accurate earphones, but as a standalone number, it isn't enough in this particular case.

So, after all that rambling about *why* we didn't publish the accuracy scores of the new version, I'll actually attempt to answer the question.  But first, some historical context will help.  Keep in mind that I wasn't here during the ER4S development, but I'll recount my understanding of the origins.  The original accuracy score of the ER4S was based on testing a number of units, averaging the responses and calculating the accuracy score, which yielded between 91-92% accuracy for that average curve.  Individual units vary, with some being in the low 90's and some being in the very high 80's.  Little differences can easily knock a point or two off here or there, so there is going to be a little variation.  With the new ER4SR, the accuracy score comes out between 92-93% accuracy.  Thus far, most of them seem to come in around 92% and with a much tighter grouping.  Now, if it was the exact same earphone design, can you hear a 1% difference in accuracy?  I don't expect so.  In fact, I'd bet a lot of money against it.  The ER4SR is a little bit more accurate than the ER4S.  But I think the shape of the curve and the differences are what make it better.  I've been pretty careful not to oversell it compared to the ER4S, but I do feel it's an improvement.  It's not wildly more accurate (or even wildly different), but it is a bit different and I do prefer the new shape of the response (what else did you expect me to say?).
 
 
*Whew* that took a while.

 
​Thanks for compiling and expanding that into one post. I'd gleaned a pretty good understanding of what the accuracy score actually meant from following this thread the past couple weeks, but I'm sure this will be very helpful if someone missed some of your other posts. I can certainly understand why putting it in with the product description without an explanation as good and thorough as yours could be confusing. Still, it's the kind of thing I'd like to know as I consider whether or not to move onto the new model yet. So, thank you for giving me such a good answer.

​Now, I've got another potentially difficult question. Does Etymotic have any data on how well/long their IEMs remain within specification with extended use? My ER4S is over three years old now, and it still sounds great to me. However, I recognize that it could have drifted a few percentage points down in accuracy and/or a couple dB out of channel balance somewhere over time without me noticing.
 
Jun 16, 2016 at 11:25 PM Post #8,214 of 19,272
​Now, I've got another potentially difficult question. Does Etymotic have any data on how well/long their IEMs remain within specification with extended use? My ER4S is over three years old now, and it still sounds great to me. However, I recognize that it could have drifted a few percentage points down in accuracy and/or a couple dB out of channel balance somewhere over time without me noticing.


If yours have degraded at all, my guess is that changing the dampers would fix them right up. We have many customers than have been using their earphones for 10-20 years and they are still going strong.
 
Jun 17, 2016 at 12:26 AM Post #8,215 of 19,272
If yours have degraded at all, my guess is that changing the dampers would fix them right up. We have many customers than have been using their earphones for 10-20 years and they are still going strong.


How would CIEMs without exchangeable dampers (or any dampers at all, as far as I can tell) change over time you reckon? I have a pair that seems to roll off to ridiculous extent in the 10k+ treble and I can't tell if it's because they are poorly designed single driver earpieces that suck, because oil has gotten into the drivers, or because my hearing is going lol

If it's because of oil getting into the drivers, I have to wonder about those $$$$$$$$$$ 10+ driver monstrosities without exchangeable filters lol
 
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Jun 17, 2016 at 4:26 AM Post #8,217 of 19,272
Sooo I managed to deep-insert the etys properly for the first time... by not using any eartips at all :eek: The tip of the nozzle and the body of the earpieces themselves act as the tip and base of a "biflange" eartip :ph34r:
 
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Jun 17, 2016 at 6:53 AM Post #8,218 of 19,272
I've recently Seen ER4 Upgrade Program! 
 
http://www.etymotic.com/support/er4-upgrade-options
 
It says it begins in July 1, and we have to return the original ER4
 
For Purchases from 2016, we pay 75$.
 
Purchases which is in 2 year warranty, we pay 225$.
 
If it's out of warranty, we pay 275$.
 
I bought ER4 in 2015, Dec.. And I have to pay 225$. What a large gap for only three weeks. Sad...
 
Jun 17, 2016 at 8:07 AM Post #8,219 of 19,272
Sooo I managed to deep-insert the etys properly for the first time... by not using any eartips at all
eek.gif
The tip of the nozzle and the body of the earpieces themselves act as the tip and base of a "biflange" eartip
ph34r.gif

 
Dang, your ear canals gotta be narrow inside.
 
I for example need to mod the triple-flanges to make them seal deep inside my large ears with wide ear canals. 
ph34r.gif

 
 
 
(↑↑↑ My 'Bi-Triple-Flange' Mod with the correct Tip Length.)
 
Jun 17, 2016 at 8:44 AM Post #8,220 of 19,272
  I've recently Seen ER4 Upgrade Program! 
 
http://www.etymotic.com/support/er4-upgrade-options
 
It says it begins in July 1, and we have to return the original ER4
 
For Purchases from 2016, we pay 75$.
 
Purchases which is in 2 year warranty, we pay 225$.
 
If it's out of warranty, we pay 275$.
 
I bought ER4 in 2015, Dec.. And I have to pay 225$. What a large gap for only three weeks. Sad...

Who else even offers an upgrade program at all???   Since you're only 3 weeks over, ask if they'll take $100. Still a good deal, as you couldn't sell yours for more than maybe $180 at the most.
 

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