[OceanGuru]

If yours have degraded at all, my guess is that changing the dampers would fix them right up. We have many customers than have been using their earphones for 10-20 years and they are still going strong.

Well, that's not the kind of answer that is going to sell me on a $350 purchase! However, it occurs to me that I may have been less than clear in what I was asking. The balanced armature transducers are a mechanical component that, to me, seems like it would degrade in performance overtime with use even if they still work well enough. Perhaps they are more robust than I think, but that's what I was asking about. Still, I thank you for your candor if I did phrase my previous question well enough to be understood as what I meant.

 

[AnyDave]

 
Well, that's not the kind of answer that is going to sell me on a $350 purchase! However, it occurs to me that I may have been less than clear in what I was asking. The balanced armature transducers are a mechanical component that, to me, seems like it would degrade in performance overtime with use even if they still work well enough. Perhaps they are more robust than I think, but that's what I was asking about. Still, I thank you for your candor if I did phrase my previous question well enough to be understood as what I meant.

 
Well, of course I want *everybody* to buy the new ones!  They are fantastic and your life is woefully incomplete without them!
 
But I'm not going to make things up to get you to buy them.  The truth is that the drivers don't really degrade much unless they've been damaged.  I have ER4s that I purchased back in '02 or '03 (before I worked at Etymotic) that still work fine.  You probably don't need to buy them because yours have degraded.  A more practical reason would be to fill the soul-sucking emptiness that accompanies the lack of owning the amazingly fantastic new model (is that more convincing?).
 
I'll actually follow-up on the receiver degradation question with Mead Killion.  He's been my boss for years and is the founder of Etymotic.  He also used to design balanced armature receivers back when he worked at Knowles.  I'll see if there's anything here I'm missing (which is certainly possible).  Over a long enough time frame, anything mechanical will eventually break down, but generally speaking, the receivers last quite a while.
 
 
On a side note, I'm fairly sure that I just ruined any chance of ever getting a sales job.

 

[OceanGuru]

   
Well, of course I want *everybody* to buy the new ones!  They are fantastic and your life is woefully incomplete without them!
 
But I'm not going to make things up to get you to buy them.  The truth is that the drivers don't really degrade much unless they've been damaged.  I have ER4s that I purchased back in '02 or '03 (before I worked at Etymotic) that still work fine.  You probably don't need to buy them because yours have degraded.  A more practical reason would be to fill the soul-sucking emptiness that accompanies the lack of owning the amazingly fantastic new model (is that more convincing?).
 
I'll actually follow-up on the receiver degradation question with Mead Killion.  He's been my boss for years and is the founder of Etymotic.  He also used to design balanced armature receivers back when he worked at Knowles.  I'll see if there's anything here I'm missing (which is certainly possible).  Over a long enough time frame, anything mechanical will eventually break down, but generally speaking, the receivers last quite a while.
 
 
On a side note, I'm fairly sure that I just ruined any chance of ever getting a sales job.

Given what you've said, I think my old ER4 can stave off the soul-devouring void for awhile longer.
 
For what it's worth, my next audio equipment purchase will almost definitely be an ER4SR (even if that is a year or two from now). That was always the case once I heard something was going to supplant the ER4S, but your efforts here have reinforced that position. Maybe I'll buy one sooner if some of those alternative cable options you teased start showing up.
​
​Also, I really appreciate you going above and beyond to follow up and make sure your answer to my question is accurate.

 

[Voyageur]

Just for the European fellows out there that have decided to wait for European release, the ER4SR and ER4XR are now listed on thomann.de... at a price of nearly 400EUR (!!). It seems that ordering on Etymotic.com with additional UPS Express fees wasn't that of a bad deal, after all.
 
They'll be available mid/end of July apparently.
 

 

[AnyDave]

How would CIEMs without exchangeable dampers (or any dampers at all, as far as I can tell) change over time you reckon? I have a pair that seems to roll off to ridiculous extent in the 10k+ treble and I can't tell if it's because they are poorly designed single driver earpieces that suck, because oil has gotten into the drivers, or because my hearing is going lol

If it's because of oil getting into the drivers, I have to wonder about those $$$$$$$$$$ 10+ driver monstrosities without exchangeable filters lol

 
Well, there's a couple of earwax related things that can cause problems.  Please keep in mind that we are venturing out of engineering and into areas that aren't necessarily my expertise.
 
1.)  Damage from earwax impaction.  If you've spend enough time with IEMs then odds are you've had a tip that had wax in the tube.  Earwax natural exists the body and insert earphones get in the way of that process.
 
2.)  Damage from earwax sublimation.  As it's been explained to me, when an earphone seals in the ear canal, the already warm ear canal actually gets warmer.  It's kind of like it's own ecosystem.  The earwax actually sublimates, where it becomes vapor and actually can deposit itself on things in the ear canal (in this case, your earphones).  This *could* cause potentially cause problems, but may or may not.  It can certainly clog a damper over time.  Will it clog an undamped earphone?  That's really difficult to say without knowing exactly how the earphone is constructed.  If a driver was close to the end of the sound port it's probably more likely than if there is a long length of tubing because of the distance the wax would have to migrate.  I won't speak to any particular design, though.  My guess is that it's not really an issue if you check the sound tube somewhat regularly.  Many of the undamped earphones out there do provide a wax removal tool to keep things clean.
 
As far as your particular earphone that has a steep roll-off above 10kHz, that could easily be the acoustics of that particular earphone.  A while back I measured an earphone that used a fairly large balanced armature.  The response basically fell off a cliff at 10khz, so it does happen.

 

[AnyDave]

  I'm highly interested in seeing overlaid curves of the 4S and 4SR.

 
Yeah, I need to make that happen at some point.
 
Ideally, I'd like to take a large production sample and show average curves for both.  We have a bunch of data, but they aren't on the same coupler, so I am probably going to have to measure a bunch of 4S units on the same test system as the 4SR and get a comparable average.

 

[luisdent]

 

Well, of course I want *everybody* to buy the new ones!  They are fantastic and your life is woefully incomplete without them!

But I'm not going to make things up to get you to buy them.  The truth is that the drivers don't really degrade much unless they've been damaged.  I have ER4s that I purchased back in '02 or '03 (before I worked at Etymotic) that still work fine.  You probably don't need to buy them because yours have degraded.  A more practical reason would be to fill the soul-sucking emptiness that accompanies the lack of owning the amazingly fantastic new model (is that more convincing?).

I'll actually follow-up on the receiver degradation question with Mead Killion.  He's been my boss for years and is the founder of Etymotic.  He also used to design balanced armature receivers back when he worked at Knowles.  I'll see if there's anything here I'm missing (which is certainly possible).  Over a long enough time frame, anything mechanical will eventually break down, but generally speaking, the receivers last quite a while.


On a side note, I'm fairly sure that I just ruined any chance of ever getting a sales job.

Given what you've said, I think my old ER4 can stave off the soul-devouring void for awhile longer.

For what it's worth, my next audio equipment purchase will almost definitely be an ER4SR (even if that is a year or two from now). That was always the case once I heard something was going to supplant the ER4S, but your efforts here have reinforced that position. Maybe I'll buy one sooner if some of those alternative cable options you teased start showing up.
​
​Also, I really appreciate you going above and beyond to follow up and make sure your answer to my question is accurate.

I'll just say once you get used to the additional detail retrieval of the er4sr it's hard to listen to anything else...

 

[Happytalk]

Bit of an elephant in the room. Can we discuss volume levels and hearing damage? I think very detailed iems can potentially do some damage. I have found that for really long listening sessions, a little roll off can be helpful. So, while I still prefer my er4s. Occasionally, I tone it down. I also love them because they can be turned down very low and still remain very clear. Just curious if anyone else has had these thoughts.

 

[AnyDave]

Bit of an elephant in the room. Can we discuss volume levels and hearing damage? I think very detailed iems can potentially do some damage. I have found that for really long listening sessions, a little roll off can be helpful. So, while I still prefer my er4s. Occasionally, I tone it down. I also love them because they can be turned down very low and still remain very clear. Just curious if anyone else has had these thoughts.

OK, I'll bite on this one.  Hearing loss is something that really should be discussed more often.
 
From every study I've ever read, hearing damage is caused by high SPL levels at the eardrums.  Whether or not the earphone is balanced, has more bass or more treble, it all boils down to listening level.
 
Now, if an earphone is very bass light and people turn up the volume louder to increase their perception of the bass, then that could certainly be detrimental, but the real problem there is that the listening level has increased.  On the other hand, rolling off the treble might make you feel more comfortable turning up the earphone louder than you would otherwise, which may also be less than ideal.  I think there is a perception that you can only get hearing damage due to loud high frequency exposure, but that's not really true.
 
In reality, any sealing earphone (or closed back headphone) can have an advantage over a non-sealing in that the listener doesn't have to compete with the outside noise.  That doesn't prevent people from turning it up too loud anyways, but it's not quite as common as in situations where they are dealing with external noise masking the music.

 

[rebbi]

OK, I'll bite on this one.  Hearing loss is something that really should be discussed more often.

From every study I've ever read, hearing damage is caused by high SPL levels at the eardrums.  Whether or not the earphone is balanced, has more bass or more treble, it all boils down to listening level.

Now, if an earphone is very bass light and people turn up the volume louder to increase their perception of the bass, then that could certainly be detrimental, but the real problem there is that the listening level has increased.  On the other hand, rolling off the treble might make you feel more comfortable turning up the earphone louder than you would otherwise, which may also be less than ideal.  I think there is a perception that you can only get hearing damage due to loud high frequency exposure, but that's not really true.

In reality, any sealing earphone (or closed back headphone) can have an advantage over a non-sealing in that the listener doesn't have to compete with the outside noise.  That doesn't prevent people from turning it up too loud anyways, but it's not quite as common as in situations where they are dealing with external noise masking the music.

Being well into middle-age and already having some mild tinnitus in my right ear (although good hearing beyond that) I am really, really paranoid about protecting my hearing. And that's one of the things I like about the Ety's: the fact that they block external noise so well that I don't have to turn them up loud and thus don't worry about hurting my hearing as much.

 

[Yen Tzu-Yuan]

I am very disappointed with this statement. Reviews here in Taiwan say er4b is much better than PT/S, but er4b is discontinued. Now i know why...but wait a minute, i wish etymotic research is a company that are true to science, not to recording industry. But you are candid about this, and I appreciate that.  

 

[Happytalk]

I am very disappointed with this statement. Reviews here in Taiwan say er4b is much better than PT/S, but er4b is discontinued. Now i know why...but wait a minute, i wish etymotic research is a company that are true to science, not to recording industry. But you are candid about this, and I appreciate that.  

What do you mean?

 

[Yen Tzu-Yuan]

   
Yeah, I suspect you are referring to target change we made a couple of decades ago.  The original ER4 (which is now the ER4B) was designed to fit the response of the ear, but most people thought it was bright because of the way CDs were mixed.  I don't have the data, but I'll have to dig it up.  In the end, the target was changed to compensate for that and the ER4S was designed to hit that new target as close as possible.  The target has since remained unchanged.

I am very disappointed with this statement. Reviews here in Taiwan say er4b is much better than PT/S, but er4b is discontinued. Now i know why...but wait a minute, i wish etymotic research is a company that are true to science, not to recording industry. But you are candid about this, and I appreciate that.  

 

[Jonoh]

Hi,
 
Can EtyDave or any pround owner of a ER4XR or ER4SR chime in on cable noise with the new cables?
 
Over ten years ago I had an ER4S which I liked a lot but when I lost it at an airport, I replaced it with a earphone from a different company which used an over the ear cable system.  The cable noise with the Etymotic was too much for me whenever I was moving around which was often. I had tried the cable over the ears and straight down, tightened under the chin.  Still a lot of cable noise.
 
I would love to get back into Etymotic and curious if the cable noise concern has been addressed over the years.  I know it is a non issue for many owners but for me, move just a bit and I would get annoying thumps in my ears.  Again, this was a long time ago so I am hoping the changes to the cabling system may mitigate some of my concern.
 
Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[Yen Tzu-Yuan]

sorry i am new user & don't know how to quote or delete my post