[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

I know this, but i meant that i would take the improved treble due to the impedance, with no amping benefits over the more recessed treble amped.

 
Agreed. There is a much, much bigger difference between the P and S versions than there is between an amped an un-amped ER4S. Unless one is using something very under-powered, a clip or something comparable should be plenty. 

 

[palmfish]

Agreed. There is a much, much bigger difference between the P and S versions than there is between an amped an un-amped ER4S. Unless one is using something very under-powered, a clip or something comparable should be plenty. 

Yup. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[luisdent]

Oh, I know you do Sean, and I agree with you. My comment was in response to robm321's original remark that the ER-4S needs an amp to control the driver - to prevent slow / sluggish sound.

Gotcha . If anyone wants a "faster" sound from their er4s, rockbox allows you to increase playback speed without affecting pitch! moohoohahaha

 

[robm321]

This review describes it best: 
 
In Ear Matters
 

ER4P Beside the difference in sound to the 4P, 4S will need an amp to sound at its best. You can still get plenty loud directly from most sources without a dedicated amp, but it will sound more compressed and lifeless. 

 

[palmfish]

Well, its on the internet so it must be true...

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

This review describes it best: 
 
In Ear Matters
 
  Quote:

ER4P Beside the difference in sound to the 4P, 4S will need an amp to sound at its best. You can still get plenty loud directly from most sources without a dedicated amp, but it will sound more compressed and lifeless. 

 
I suppose you could say that, but I think people exaggerate that claim too much, making out to be a much larger difference than it is.  Is it there?  Sure.  I bet some people wouldn't even hear a difference though.  It's just a certain improvement a discerning listener would hear.  But it is not night and day like the change from one earphone to another.  Going from the er4p to the er4s is a smaller change than pretty much going from any other headphone to either er4.  The change from amping is much less difference than that.  Much less.
 
So, if you're a very discerning listener and you want the best quality, you probably want an amp IF you don't have a very good source.  I consider the sansa players a very good source.  They aren't perfect, but the only drawback they have is a low noise floor at loud volumes.  But impact, tightness, frequency response, etc. is excellent.  This has been shown by measurements as well.  But I've heard a noticeable enough difference in certain ways going from my ipod touch 5g to my jds c5 amp using my er4s.  So I wouldn't listen to my ipod without the amp, period probably.  But it's still a very small difference.  It's the law of diminishing returns.  Yes it is better, but for some it might not be hundreds of dollars worth better, that's all.
 
In my opinion,if the er4s alone doesn't satisfy you, you should be looking for another earphone all together.  If you really love the sound, but want the best out of it, investigate how much an amp would improve your specific source.  You might find you get a small improvement, and for some like me that is worth it on some devices.  For others it is small enough that they might not care or notice it.  Not to mention, if you have a good enough source, amping doesn't always improve quality, but can actually degrade quality if the amp isn't as good as the source (this is more common than people think).  But some people might hear a less quality amp that is not a flat response and prefer the sound.  To each his own.  
 
If you find your er4s lacking, I'd ask yourself what is missing or lacking.  If you have a chance to try an amp, I recommend doing so.  The jds c5 is my most recommended amp.  It is very reference and powerful and small and awesome.  Their support is like etymotic.  They go above and beyond normal.

 

[palmfish]

But I've heard a noticeable enough difference in certain ways going from my ipod touch 5g to my jds c5 amp using my er4s.  So I wouldn't listen to my ipod without the amp, period probably.  But it's still a very small difference.  It's the law of diminishing returns.  Yes it is better, but for some it might not be hundreds of dollars worth better, that's all.

The only thing I'll add to your response is that the output impedance of a DAP or amp may affect the sound you hear more than the power output. The Clip, iPod, C5, and any other amp you care to try will all react differently to the ER-4S for reasons other than power output alone.

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

The only thing I'll add to your response is that the output impedance of a DAP or amp may affect the sound you hear more than the power output. The Clip, iPod, C5, and any other amp you care to try will all react differently to the ER-4S for reasons other than power output alone.

 
Exactly my point.  There are so many variables.  Just getting any amplifier won't necessarily improve things.  However, every device I have and have mentioned is a very low output impedance (<2ohm) and therefore will have little to no effective differences there with the er4s.  I use them with my 32 ohm apogee duet sometimes, and I can detect a difference there that matches the changes you see in impedance graphs for the er4s.  However, the change is small.  Going from 1 to 2 ohms with the er4s is nothing really.  But getting an amp with t 15-20+ output impedance, and you'll start to hear differences.  The higher the impedance the brighter they sound, so some people might find that good some might find it bad.  I think the treble is nearly perfect, so I aim for low impedance to get the true response.  Then I use the red filters to adjust the sound to my liking by reducing the small peaks for lack of better words.

 

[robm321]

Well, its on the internet so it must be true... 

 
Like this forum, right? 

 
I actually just posted that review because he had a better way of saying what I experience. But it's my experience over the years that the dynamics just aren't there and other aspects are affected. The difference is subtle and probably would be unnoticed by your average non audiophile, so I'm not trying to say it sucks without an amp. I just notice it enough to opt for the HF-3 or ER4P over the S if I'm going straight out of my iPhone. YMMV.

 

[d_wilson]

The different filters will not have an effect on the low frequencies.  If I could only find the folder I put those curves with the different filters I ran in 1991!
 
The metal filters can cause cracking in the housing.  That one reason why we stopped using them.
 
If you insist on experimenting with different filters, why don't you just buy the plastic versions off the Etymotic web site?

 

[pacman46]

Ok I just got my er4s's yesterday and I absoulutly love them. Ok my question. I have a pair of p's too And it's either the tips are smaller on the new s's or the ear pieces them selfs. I haven't had any time to compare the two. Does anyone know if there is a difference in the ear pieces between the two or are the triple tips smaller on the newer ones?? They seem smaller when I insert them In my ears. ??

 

[d_wilson]

We switched the default tips attached to the ER-4's to the smaller "frost" eartip.  In the box you will find 2 pair of the gray "large" eartips which are the same as they have been for years.  IF you go back far enough they are the same as the white tips

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

The different filters will not have an effect on the low frequencies.  If I could only find the folder I put those curves with the different filters I ran in 1991!
 
The metal filters can cause cracking in the housing.  That one reason why we stopped using them.
 
If you insist on experimenting with different filters, why don't you just buy the plastic versions off the Etymotic web site?

 
Hey Don!  I find the red filter only really affects the 3/5/10khz areas or so b just slightly reducing them.  I guess someone might get the impression of more bass due to less treble, but there really isn't a treble wide cut, but rather just the small bumps are lowered a tad.  These graphs seem pretty accurate based on listening...
 
 

 

 
You sell red colored filters with plastic on your site?  I checked a bit ago and didn't find any.  As for the metal filters, that's good to know.  I haven't personally experienced any problems like that, but I'm only on my first red filter set.  What is the likeliness of this happening?  Is it when they're inserted or after prolonged use under the extra pressure I assume they must exhibit?

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

We switched the default tips attached to the ER-4's to the smaller "frost" eartip.  In the box you will find 2 pair of the gray "large" eartips which are the same as they have been for years.  IF you go back far enough they are the same as the white tips

 
Don, regarding the triple flange tips... I had a few sets and maureen recently sent me a new set that was very noticeably softer silicon.  Is this a change in the material or something?  They were identical otherwise.  Or perhaps my original tips had been in a box a long time or something?  The difference was night and day though.  They were softer new than the tips i broke in after months of use...

 

[gnarlsagan]

We switched the default tips attached to the ER-4's to the smaller "frost" eartip.  In the box you will find 2 pair of the gray "large" eartips which are the same as they have been for years.  IF you go back far enough they are the same as the white tips

So nice to see you on here Don Wilson. Luisdent and I were just talking about petitioning etymotic to develop an ER4 with more bass emphasis below 60Hz.

Or at least something that might better align with the new Olive-Welti reference. It could be the perfect earphone... or at least closer than most others!