[bowei006]

Quote:

 
I meant SSD LOL! I think that could work, probably
 
DAC function like the one in HM-801 was what I meant
 
Really? I just put that in because I thought it would be possible

SSD...nope, they are similar in a sense to FLASH memory, getting real SSD's would not be cheap
 
DAC function?
 
Switchable? Possible yes.....should be done? No...too expensive and complex

 

[graphidz]

Quote:

SSD...nope, they are similar in a sense to FLASH memory, getting real SSD's would not be cheap
 
DAC function?
 
Switchable? Possible yes.....should be done? No...too expensive and complex

 
Too bad...
USB DAC. HM-801(discontinued) have that function
Aww...

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

 
Too bad...
USB DAC. HM-801(discontinued) have that function
Aww...

Can be used as USB DAC? I'm suprised, but that's really cool!

 

[VortexBlast]

If it's a money no object DAP that you want to make, let me start with covering all the functions.
 
Making a razor thin audiophile grade quality DAP is not feasible but there are ways to make it thinner. The first is the use of materials. Plastic can be made thin but the problem with it is that the thinner it is, the worse the quality is. The only way I could think to make it thinner is to actually use expensive materials like aluminium or carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is preferable since it's very strong and very light so it can be made thin but it needs to be coated with raisin to prevent shorting the components out.
How it looks is also important but it needs to be ergonomic. Most people will hold it with one hand so why not put rubber pads where the hand will touch the device.
The display is a very important factor to me. Touch screen DAPs are all the rage nowadays but the problem with the iTouch is the aspect ratio of the screen which is not right. A 16:9 aspect ratio would be preferable and it should either be an OLED panel or an IPS panel with at least 98% colour accuracy in the sRGB range. It's important to have colour accurate monitors because we see the true colours of a picture. Many display manufacturers tend to over contrast and over saturate the colours to make it look impressive but the fact is that they aren't looking at what the artist, photographer, videographer wants them to look at.
You don't need to put speakers, it's a waste of valuable space.
I very much like the idea of iBasso's DX100 where they put two headphone jacks in, one a 6.3mm and the other a 3.5mm it needs to include an S/PDIF input, a line out and a micro usb port that supports digital out that is compatible with any external DACs.
I don't think you need a volume rocker switch because the volume bar is already on the screen when you play it.
Now for the hardware inside. Since it's going to be a money no object DAP, it seriously needs a bang of performance but because it's a touch screen, it doesn't make sense for a DAP that doesn't support videos. An Nvidia Tegra 3 is probably a good choice.
For storage, it's important to have a huge internal storage but with the possibility to extend it with microSD slots that supports up to UHS-I cards like the Sandisk Extreme Pro. Internal storage should be a minimum of 32GB since it'll be an audiophile DAP, chances are they'll put 24/96 Flac files.
Speaking of file formats, it needs to support the majority of formats but the most important of all are flac, apple lossless and uncompressed wav.
The DAC needs to be a very high end one. It's either AKM, ESS or Wolfson but needs to support 24/96 files natively without upsampling.
I would also like the Amp section to be powerful but not too powerful that it sucks out everything from the battery (battery life needs to be around or more than 10 Hours). If I were to put a benchmark, it needs to drive headphones like the HE-500 and the HD800 with some ease. So it needs to adapt with low sensitivities and impedance swings.
As for the UI, I don't like Apple's UI one bit. I think the best UI is the one that is dynamic and customizable. Let it be the work of artists, engineers, OCD maniacs or average Joes but probably, out of the box it should be a nice simple UI that is appealing visually.
And that's probably it, maybe bluetooth 2.1 and wi-fi a/b/g/n also...

 

[graphidz]

Quote:

Can be used as USB DAC? I'm suprised, but that's really cool!

 
Yep. I was surprised as well. You should read the review how great this DAP was. Sadly it was discontinued
 
Quote:

If it's a money no object DAP that you want to make, let me start with covering all the functions.
 
Making a razor thin audiophile grade quality DAP is not feasible but there are ways to make it thinner. The first is the use of materials. Plastic can be made thin but the problem with it is that the thinner it is, the worse the quality is. The only way I could think to make it thinner is to actually use expensive materials like aluminium or carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is preferable since it's very strong and very light so it can be made thin but it needs to be coated with raisin to prevent shorting the components out.
How it looks is also important but it needs to be ergonomic. Most people will hold it with one hand so why not put rubber pads where the hand will touch the device.
The display is a very important factor to me. Touch screen DAPs are all the rage nowadays but the problem with the iTouch is the aspect ratio of the screen which is not right. A 16:9 aspect ratio would be preferable and it should either be an OLED panel or an IPS panel with at least 98% colour accuracy in the sRGB range. It's important to have colour accurate monitors because we see the true colours of a picture. Many display manufacturers tend to over contrast and over saturate the colours to make it look impressive but the fact is that they aren't looking at what the artist, photographer, videographer wants them to look at.
You don't need to put speakers, it's a waste of valuable space.
I very much like the idea of iBasso's DX100 where they put two headphone jacks in, one a 6.3mm and the other a 3.5mm it needs to include an S/PDIF input, a line out and a micro usb port that supports digital out that is compatible with any external DACs.
I don't think you need a volume rocker switch because the volume bar is already on the screen when you play it.
Now for the hardware inside. Since it's going to be a money no object DAP, it seriously needs a bang of performance but because it's a touch screen, it doesn't make sense for a DAP that doesn't support videos. An Nvidia Tegra 3 is probably a good choice.
For storage, it's important to have a huge internal storage but with the possibility to extend it with microSD slots that supports up to UHS-I cards like the Sandisk Extreme Pro. Internal storage should be a minimum of 32GB since it'll be an audiophile DAP, chances are they'll put 24/96 Flac files.
Speaking of file formats, it needs to support the majority of formats but the most important of all are flac, apple lossless and uncompressed wav.
The DAC needs to be a very high end one. It's either AKM, ESS or Wolfson but needs to support 24/96 files natively without upsampling.
I would also like the Amp section to be powerful but not too powerful that it sucks out everything from the battery (battery life needs to be around or more than 10 Hours). If I were to put a benchmark, it needs to drive headphones like the HE-500 and the HD800 with some ease. So it needs to adapt with low sensitivities and impedance swings.
As for the UI, I don't like Apple's UI one bit. I think the best UI is the one that is dynamic and customizable. Let it be the work of artists, engineers, OCD maniacs or average Joes but probably, out of the box it should be a nice simple UI that is appealing visually.
And that's probably it, maybe bluetooth 2.1 and wi-fi a/b/g/n also...

 
Great Idea! Though I wanna edit that to be with limited budget version
 
 
Thin is good thing though there are compromises. So why compromise the thickness for performance? Increase the size (though not up to DX100, but about the HM-801 should do, or even better the HM-601
 
Isn't there any strong plastic out there already? If it does, compare the price of that durable plastic and metal and go for the cheaper one. Agree to use the rubber for grip purposes, but that can be solved by getting a rubber casing or something, so putting rubber directly on the phone is pretty much unnecessary
 
For the display, the screen shows only the track name,length, volume, battery, file number album name, bit, and other should be sufficient. I mean using a colour screen JUST so that you can put album picture is not justifiable. Enough screen size to show album/file location should do. Use the screen like on the Clip+ but with a faster refresh rate should do.
 
Don't use touch screen because to cut cost. IMO, I like to change my music without taking it out of my pocket. So physical button is a good thing to have
 
For the connection, a true line out,3.5mm in and out (in for the use as a pure amp) and micro usb for file transfers should be suffice. No need for any advance ports or USB 3.0 as it's useless
 
Processor should be enough to play any file format and codecs without even the slightest lag. Goig for multi cores or anything is an overkill
 
Internal storage is not necessary only if you can fit a huge storage like the iPod Classic. If not, then just put 1 or maybe even 2 slot for SD cards. The storage seems to grow at a really fast pace, his that is the way to go
 
No need for internal DAC since you have a line out already (sure that is a nice addition, but remember this is a budget version). But an internal amp is a must! Powerful enough to drive 300ohm headphones should suffice since you are most probably not going to make a HD800 as a portable. LCD, maybe but those I fairly easy to drive if I'm not mistaken
 
UI should be of average like Rockbox. Get those files in order, the ability to easily create playlists, delete, copy and move files are a must! No need forawesome UI like android or iOS sine this is a PURE music DAP
 
For battery, try researching how Motorola made the battery for the RAzr Maxx. Should be more that enough

 

[figgie]

Oh and another thing.
 
 
Power Efficency!!
 
That of course is all coding though!
 
persoanlly for a DAP. There is zero need for 1ghz! or a 2d/3d GPU. That just adds overhead power consumption.

 

[antberg]

To be honest i would be sold out with a huge storage capacity ,huge battery life ,and good sound quality.don`t care about anything else.

 

[jhelsas]

I will answer as a consumer, what I would love to see in a portable player:
 
1) Linux compatibility, and multi-OS compatibility in general . For daily life and for work I use linux, and use Windows for games also, I also know lots of people with mac, windows and diferent flavors of linux, so you can see the mess when something doesn't have cross-platform compatibility, and it's REALY anoying when you try to get support from a company and it says that you should use windows since THEY don't support cross/OS. Sorry for the caps, but it's how I feel for many years now after purchasing many products and having to relly in the (great, btw) linux comunity to do the job the companies didn't want to complete.
 
2) Multiple browsing and organization options: Diferent people like diferent things. In my case I wan't to have folder structure browsing as a must, but many people like either artist/album or playlist formation. I like particularly my Sansa Fuze 8GB folder structure, it's not perfect but it's simple enough. Also it would be interesting to have a "virtual merge" between the SD card and the internal memory folders, so you shouldn't go  all the way up the folder tree just to change between the internal memory and SD card. Of course you should be able to see the memory as it is if you wish so.
 
3) As people said, support to all possible formats, but well, FLAC is a must, and I think mp3 & ogg also, still if you  could make it to support APE and ALAC would be very nice, in the case of the last one, would probably atract lots of people that have macs/ipod right now and pose a possibility for them since they wouldn't have to change from ALAC to flac in their colection. One of the (many) reasons that I don't go to ipod classic is that it doesn't support flac out of the box, and I don't know how that rockbox support for it is going.
 
4) 16GB / 32GB / 64GB would be great, but if there is 16GB and SD(not micro-sd) card suport would be more than enough. Most consumers would be more than satisfied with 16GB, and some that want more storage can buy up to 128 GB of extra storage, and the cost stays with the consumer, and as so maybe it's possible to cut some dollars off if the player get too expensive.
 
5) Support for 24 bits/ 44.1 48 88.2 96 kHz files natively, I don't think that's necessary to go all the way up to 24 bits/192 kHz for a portable player, but this is my personal opinion. As a consequence choose a good DAC for them.
 
6) About conectors:
 
      If you aim squarely as a memory in -> headphone out player, just focus on a good amp but I think that such a player could be more than just that.
 
      To compete with the Ipod, I think that it should be able to use either an digital output or an  usb output in order to have the music streamed out digitaly, and so use something like an Algorithm Solo or other portable DAC.
 
       Besides that, I think it should have a line-out to use portable/fullsized amps or stereo systems without too much of a fuss, and maybe an digital-in to be used as an portable dac/amp. It can get bulky with this kind of conectors. If you could make multiple versions, I would make a consumer-focused version without this kind of conectors, and also with micro-sd card suport intead of SD card suport, and a higher-end version with them. If you can make it no bigger than Ibasso DX100, that would be enough.
 
       Last but not least, it should use standard usb conectors, no  proprietary conectors please. I don't know why use proprietary conectors, but I do know that you end up needing to use multiple conectors and adapters on the long run, and I personaly don't like it.
 
7) It's going to be  feeding mainly Iems and portable headphones, so I think there is no need for something that can power up to 600 ohms cans. If  you can get it to power up to 200-300 ohms max, would more than enough in my view. If you wan't to power something like a planar-magnetic or a 600 ohms can, I think it would be wiser to have a line out and a external dedicated amp.
 
8) Battery: If you can manage to have ~ 20 h with 16/44.1 flac music using a ~ 30 ohms iem, it would be a bliss!!
 
     Idealy, something like 8-10 h of 24/96  flac, and 24 h of 16/44.1 flac with an portable can or with an iem in decent(not earblowing) volumes would be the perfect battery time in my opinion.
 
     Also the basic auto-switch off after idle time is mandatory, perferably if configurable. Also it would be nice if you could choose if you want to charge or not the player when it's pluged in the computer. If  you just want to get music in, you don't need to get it charged, principaly if the battery if already near full.
 
     Edit: Also, if you could  make the battery user-exchangable would be awesome.
 
9) Touch-Screen vs buttoms/wheels and physical UI :
 
       Personaly I haven't had a good time with touch screens, usualy my fingers are too big for most of them so when I have to type something it sometimes get bothersome. Yesterday I saw the Samsung Galaxy S wifi interface and I think I'll be giving it a closer look soon, it seemed the best UI from touch-screen players that I tried, far better than the Ipod touch UI, cleaner.
 
       If possible, try making a lower end with buttoms and a higher end with touchscreen. I like the sansa fuze buttoms and  wheel, but sometimes I would like to have a nicer UI, it seems a bit old/limited interface from time to time.
 
       Also a holder/locking buttom is a very good
 
10)  A fine grained volume control is important if you and  to get from 16 ohms iems to 300 ohms cans. If you don't want to get it there, you don't need  a too fine grained, but still, I think something between 64/128 steps would be very very good, or even maybe 256 steps.
 
11) I don't think that most consumers would care about tweaking their player, but for a realy high end player, which I don't think it's the case but it would be If you would be aiming to compete with ibasso dx100, would be very good.
 
12) wifi Internet, games and other capabilities:
 
      Many consumers love this things now a days, but if you think it you have to sacrifice some audio-quality to have it, I say forget it, make one good audio-player and you are good to go. Also, this things eat battery like nuts, so be carefull if you wish to include them.
 
13) Price:
 
       I know it's dificult, but if you could make it near the ~ US$ 400, it would face directly the Ipod touch and I think it would be near unbeatable in the price-range. If you have to choose, make a lower end player near the US$ 300 and a higher-end player near the US$ 600-800, but make the later a real threat to the DX100, if not in SQ, in usability and other features.
 
Well, good luck with your market research, and, if I may add, once you make your player, if has most if not all the above, I will seriously consider buying it.

 

[somebodysb2]

You first have to hire a design team, pay fabricators, manufacturers, manage logistics, build a custom OS from scratch/ a custom Android distro... yeah, your'e not going to make a profit out of this.

 

[KT66]

this is fun, my dream dap is....
 
 
The size of a cigarette pack
able to take 2 SD or Micro SD cards
Album artwork
WAV,FLAC,MP3 and AAC (so few DAPs play AAC)
and...
no headphone output, I only want a quality fixed voltage line out, I will always use a seperate amp
digital out
no line in
battery life of 5 hours will do for me
simple interface
no touchscreen
sounds as good as my Linn Ikemi CD player

 

[graphidz]

@jhelsas, not to be an @ss, but most of everything you said are already out there : the DX100. And look at the price of that thing
 
Oh and one thing, I don't think you are talking as a consumer, more like as a really experienced audiophile
 
Just my 2cents

 

[276539]

I really want a good DAP with wonderful SQ which can be controlled by smartphones.
The commands can be sent through Wifi or bluetooth, or you can make it like the apple airport express
Just stream the digital signal to the DAP.
So I can actually put it in my bag with just a cable coming out!
and I don't need to take out a BOMB from my bag just to shift to the next song.

 

[jhelsas]

Quote:

@jhelsas, not to be an @ss, but most of everything you said are already out there : the DX100. And look at the price of that thing
 
Oh and one thing, I don't think you are talking as a consumer, more like as a really experienced audiophile
 
Just my 2cents

 Thanks for your cents, your a right about the first point. I think I was just bitter about Sandisk for droping the Sansa Fuze for the new Fuze+, which as far as I tested, don't live up to the previous standards as a player in the same price category, one thing that didn't occured to the clip zip.
 
 The player is out there, I "just" need to save the money to buy it, though, as I said, I would love to see a "downgraded" version @ US$ 400 . One of my concerns was that it would have a too short battery life when it was released, but I don't know how it realy turned out to be.
 
  One other problem is that where I live, I won't be getting it so I need wait for my next travel to get it.
 
  On the audiophile thing. Though I have plunged quite a bit(I think) in this audiophile business, I don't consider myself as an experienced audiophile having only 2 years since my first "audiophile" experience with a sennheiser headphone, which pretty brought me here. But still, thanks for the compliment ^^.
 
Edit:
 
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but is there any other external DAC which has a better sound than the DX100 DAC?

 

[ej8989]

if you want a dap that directly competes with itouch, you have to consider why the itouch became the most popular.
as a consumer, i'd buy a player that has 16:9 high-res 3.5-inch OLED screen covered with gorilla glass , external music buttons, wolfson dac, customizable EQ (preferrably like the cowon's), dual-core chip, runs on android, has wifi, loud external speakers, 1 week battery life on continuous usage, made up of aluminum, 32gb - 64gb - 120gb storage, almost as thin as the ipod touch, and can compete with the ipod touch's pricing.

 

[graphidz]

Quote:

 Thanks for your cents, your a right about the first point. I think I was just bitter about Sandisk for droping the Sansa Fuze for the new Fuze+, which as far as I tested, don't live up to the previous standards as a player in the same price category, one thing that didn't occured to the clip zip.
 
 The player is out there, I "just" need to save the money to buy it, though, as I said, I would love to see a "downgraded" version @ US$ 400 . One of my concerns was that it would have a too short battery life when it was released, but I don't know how it realy turned out to be.
 
  One other problem is that where I live, I won't be getting it so I need wait for my next travel to get it.
 
  On the audiophile thing. Though I have plunged quite a bit(I think) in this audiophile business, I don't consider myself as an experienced audiophile having only 2 years since my first "audiophile" experience with a sennheiser headphone, which pretty brought me here. But still, thanks for the compliment ^^.
 
Edit:
 
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but is there any other external DAC which has a better sound than the DX100 DAC?

 
No problem
 
IMO, and from what I believe, DAC won't make as much difference to change a sound sig as an amp since by the name, it just converts digital signal to analog but please correct me on this
 
Also, I tend to believe single purpose things are always better than a multipurpose stuff