[thepiper92]

Either should really do fine with them.

I can get the Bravado in Canada. Really considering it. But it's a toss up between that and the Kennerton Magni

 

[theveterans]

So they are actually better than headphones, but are just spacious sounding? I'm guessing that is due to having multiple drivers, and multiple types.

There are 1K IEMs that are spacious sounding, but overall, it's similar to listening to a small orchestra against a very large concert hall. Both 1K IEM and 1K headphone will layer extremely well, but the airiness of a 1K headphone (the highest treble frequency extension) that makes you perceive it as grander in physicality than 1K IEM. I haven't heard an EST IEMs before (supposed to address that highest frequency roll-off in BA IEMs), but 1K BA IEMs have a limited high frequency roll-off that you'll only perceive if you A/B both of them side by side

 

[jsmiller58]

I don’t play in the $1K IEM space ($600 or so has been my upper bound - Fearless S8F and Thieaudio Oracle), as well as many, many sub $500 IEMs (most recent add was the Moondrop KATO). I do have a couple of ~$1K headphones (Mr Speakers x Massdrop CX and ZMF Eikon) and I also have quite a few sub-1K headphones (including Elex, Sundara, HE560, among others)….

My PERSONAL opinion…. First I should say what I care about…. a pleasant tonality with a somewhat but not overly elevated bass, clean mids with a touch of warmth, and clear but not sibilant highs. I care somewhat less about ”technicalities”, whatever that means, since I listen to music, not analyze it . What I don’t really pay much attention to are the finer points of stage size and imaging, but, to be clear, I am not a gamer, and I usually don’t watch movies with headphones or IEMs except when exercising.

With all of this in mind, I would probably pick most of my IEMs over my headphones any day of the week, and twice on Sundays…. Why? I find that headphones, while they excel in stage size and imaging (which I care less about), are muddy and veiled compared to IEMs which sound so much cleaner. Physics pretty much works in the favor of IEMs where pure sound comes into play - headphones have to deal with all of the messy wave interactions between your ears and the drivers that are so close to your head. To be fair, open backs are better that way than closed backs, and also do stage and imaging better, but in my experience open backs suffer usually from anemic bass and are not usable in all circumstances.

Just my opinion of course, and probably not a popular one at that!

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

At some point in the near future, I'll be buying a pair of headphones. I've gone from IEM to headphones a few times, and typically go to headphones, due to comfort, and overall sound quality, namely soundstage.

But I'm curious, how are IEMs now in 2021? How do $1000 IEMs compare to $1000 headphones (looking at the Kennerton Magni currently)?

My last "expensive" IEM was the Campfjre Orion. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't long before I went for the Oppo PM3s. Portability was nice, but the sound wasn't immersive, Soundstage was small, and eq resulted in distortion.

I own and love both full sized headphones and IEMs. They have different use cases. If I am sitting at my desk, I prefer full sized headphones because they sound better. If I am not at my desk, I prefer IEMs. IEMs have a darker background and better sound isolation so they work better in noisy environments. Full sized headphones have better sound stage and once you get to a certain level, I think that headphones just outperform IEMs due to physics.

I would put up the Focal Clear and Hifiman Arya up against any IEM less than $1500 including the MEST. I own all of them.

Once you get to Hifiman HE1000v2 or SE, Focal Utopia, ZMF Verite Closed, which I own, they outperform all of my IEMs and I own EE Odin, Oriolus Traillii, EE Legend EVO, EE Legend X, Sony IER-Z1R, UM MEST OG, Thieaudio Monarch.

You don't need to buy expensive desktop sources for full sized headphones to sound great. My DX300 with AMP12 makes all of my IEMs and full sized headphones sound great. Add a Cayin C9 and it sounds almost as good as a great desktop system. I have a great desktop system (Chord Hugo TT2, Mscaler, Ampsandsound Rockwell) because it sounds a helluva lot better than DAPs.

But, at the end of the day, it's a personal preference.

 

[thepiper92]

I don’t play in the $1K IEM space ($600 or so has been my upper bound - Fearless S8F and Thieaudio Oracle), as well as many, many sub $500 IEMs (most recent add was the Moondrop KATO). I do have a couple of ~$1K headphones (Mr Speakers x Massdrop CX and ZMF Eikon) and I also have quite a few sub-1K headphones (including Elex, Sundara, HE560, among others)….

My PERSONAL opinion…. First I should say what I care about…. a pleasant tonality with a somewhat but not overly elevated bass, clean mids with a touch of warmth, and clear but not sibilant highs. I care somewhat less about ”technicalities”, whatever that means, since I listen to music, not analyze it . What I don’t really pay much attention to are the finer points of stage size and imaging, but, to be clear, I am not a gamer, and I usually don’t watch movies with headphones or IEMs except when exercising.

With all of this in mind, I would probably pick most of my IEMs over my headphones any day of the week, and twice on Sundays…. Why? I find that headphones, while they excel in stage size and imaging (which I care less about), are muddy and veiled compared to IEMs which sound so much cleaner. Physics pretty much works in the favor of IEMs where pure sound comes into play - headphones have to deal with all of the messy wave interactions between your ears and the drivers that are so close to your head. To be fair, open backs are better that way than closed backs, and also do stage and imaging better, but in my experience open backs suffer usually from anemic bass and are not usable in all circumstances.

Just my opinion of course, and probably not a popular one at that!

You don't see soundstage to be valuable for music, such as hearing location of vocalists and instruments, depth?

 

[thepiper92]

I own and love both full sized headphones and IEMs. They have different use cases. If I am sitting at my desk, I prefer full sized headphones because they sound better. If I am not at my desk, I prefer IEMs. IEMs have a darker background and better sound isolation so they work better in noisy environments. Full sized headphones have better sound stage and once you get to a certain level, I think that headphones just outperform IEMs due to physics.

I would put up the Focal Clear and Hifiman Arya up against any IEM less than $1500 including the MEST. I own all of them.

Once you get to Hifiman HE1000v2 or SE, Focal Utopia, ZMF Verite Closed, which I own, they outperform all of my IEMs and I own EE Odin, Oriolus Traillii, EE Legend EVO, EE Legend X, Sony IER-Z1R, UM MEST OG, Thieaudio Monarch.

You don't need to buy expensive desktop sources for full sized headphones to sound great. My DX300 with AMP12 makes all of my IEMs and full sized headphones sound great. Add a Cayin C9 and it sounds almost as good as a great desktop system. I have a great desktop system (Chord Hugo TT2, Mscaler, Ampsandsound Rockwell) because it sounds a helluva lot better than DAPs.

But, at the end of the day, it's a personal preference.

I will be using either my S9 Pro or HIP Dac 2 to listen.

It's really hard picking between headphones and earphones...some say headphones over iems, like you, others say iems.

I don't need complete isolation, 70-80% is pretty much 100% to me. I'm not in a noisy environment. I don't want open backs, however, as I don't want to annoy others.

 

[Chris Kaoss]

All good points and this portrait the whole range of "all hearing different".

I'm on the same lane as @jsmiller58 .
Right at the moment I adore the FiiO FD5 over all of my other headphones.
Hence I'm on the go to sell my D9200 bc the FD5, for me, is the better and more pleasant earphone. ^^

The preference of the op sounds close to what the FiiO FD7 is able to "produce", i think.
Sadly i can't say much about it bc i didn't had a listen by now, but it's on my short list.

But as someone mentioned before, the playground is hugh on <1k iems/headphones and covers all the needs to "enjoy music on a non-technical level".

 

[jsmiller58]

You don't see soundstage to be valuable for music, such as hearing location of vocalists and instruments, depth?

I think I said “care less about”, which I meant in the literal sense - I don’t care about sound stage and imaging as much as I care about tonality and timbre.

It is more about my particular use model…. I listen to music for entertainment and less to pick apart the music. While I do care about sound stage and imaging to an extent I don’t, for example, listen to much orchestral music where that might be more important, and I don’t generally watch movies with headphones. I have on occasion watched some YouTube video or a movie on my iPad with open back headphones and been very impressed by what I heard from soundstage and imaging on headphones! If I did more like that I might feel differently, but I do not so I don’t…. And, to be clear, you do get some sound stage and decent imaging from IEMs, just not to the level achievable in over ears.

It is all about what you value, there is nothing wrong with any particular answer, I just wanted to put my opinion out there as what is most likely a minority opinion to consider

 

[thepiper92]

I think I said “care less about”, which I meant in the literal sense - I don’t care about sound stage and imaging as much as I care about tonality and timbre.

It is more about my particular use model…. I listen to music for entertainment and less to pick apart the music. While I do care about sound stage and imaging to an extent I don’t, for example, listen to much orchestral music where that might be more important, and I don’t generally watch movies with headphones. I have on occasion watched some YouTube video or a movie on my iPad with open back headphones and been very impressed by what I heard from soundstage and imaging on headphones! If I did more like that I might feel differently, but I do not so I don’t…. And, to be clear, you do get some sound stage and decent imaging from IEMs, just not to the level achievable in over ears.

It is all about what you value, there is nothing wrong with any particular answer, I just wanted to put my opinion out there as what is most likely a minority opinion to consider

I just don't want to get $1000 in ears and find out the sound is all clumped together. I'm fine with the soundstage of my PM3, where I can make out the location of instruments: clear percussion, but further away than the rest, and vocals present up front. I do listen to jazz, and occasionally orchestral music, but usually rock, funk, motown. Essentially everything 80s and before that, with the odd modern track. I look for powerful bass, but not bloated bass.

I also don't watch TV or movies with headphones, or any higher end equipment. My tastes are with music alone, and even if I were a millionaire, I'd never install some $20000 surround sound system in my place.

So IEMs just produce a better quality sound, apart from soundstage (since they are stuck into your ear)?

I am still concerned about comfort. I often listen to music 2 hours at a time, have you found any issues with comfort with high end IEMs?

I'm strongly looking at the Bravado MK2, but the FIIO FD7 interests me. I'm guessing getting a multiple driver iem is a better bet, as it allows you to get the most out of frequencies

 

[jsmiller58]

I just don't want to get $1000 in ears and find out the sound is all clumped together. I'm fine with the soundstage of my PM3, where I can make out the location of instruments: clear percussion, but further away than the rest, and vocals present up front. I do listen to jazz, and occasionally orchestral music, but usually rock, funk, motown. Essentially everything 80s and before that, with the odd modern track. I look for powerful bass, but not bloated bass.

I also don't watch TV or movies with headphones, or any higher end equipment. My tastes are with music alone, and even if I were a millionaire, I'd never install some $20000 surround sound system in my place.

So IEMs just produce a better quality sound, apart from soundstage (since they are stuck into your ear)?

I am still concerned about comfort. I often listen to music 2 hours at a time, have you found any issues with comfort with high end IEMs?

I'm strongly looking at the Bravado MK2, but the FIIO FD7 interests me. I'm guessing getting a multiple driver iem is a better bet, as it allows you to get the most out of frequencies

Because I don’t really pay much attention to soundstage and imaging other than does it sound “right” I am probably not qualified to give you an impression about how good IEMs might be at it. But, I can say I have never had a “Wow” soundstage/imaging reaction while wearing IEMs, but I have had them on headphones (most recently with the very budget friendly Beyerdynamic Tygr 300) - so that might speak volumes…. It seems that soundstage and imaging seem extremely important to you, so, for what it is worth I think that you should first explore more headphones on your audio journey. If I felt as strongly as you seem to feel I would always be looking backwards, wondering what I missed out on, if I did not follow my gut…. As has been suggested, you might want to buy a previously used headphone - you will get to experience that at a lower price and probably have little risk in reselling if it is not to your liking.

As to your question - “So IEMs just produce a better quality sound, apart from soundstage (since they are stuck into your ear)?” My opinion, and just my opinion, is that the tonality of music, in my experience, is better with IEMs. I mentioned in my earlier post that it is about physics…. Sound is just waves in the air, and waves interact with each other in constructive and destructive interference. Headphone drivers output sound waves very close to your ears, some of which will go into your ears, and others will reflect back off your head and as they bounce back toward the headphone will interact with the waves going toward your head, then bounce off of the headphone and interfere with the waves being output by the drivers, etc. This results in a warmer sound that many actually enjoy - nothing wrong with that! - but that I find veiled and lacking clarity. **To make this more real, if someone cups their hands around your ear and speaks to you it is a very different sound than if they speak to you without cupping their hands around your ear….**

As to comfort, yeah, that can be a problem with IEMs. I am lucky in that for once my large ears (thanks, Dad!) help me have no discomfort with most IEMs, and by tip rolling I can find tips that work well with my ear canals.

Choices…. Great to have them, difficult to have to make them!!

 

[thepiper92]

Because I don’t really pay much attention to soundstage and imaging other than does it sound “right” I am probably not qualified to give you an impression about how good IEMs might be at it. But, I can say I have never had a “Wow” soundstage/imaging reaction while wearing IEMs, but I have had them on headphones (most recently with the very budget friendly Beyerdynamic Tygr 300) - so that might speak volumes…. It seems that soundstage and imaging seem extremely important to you, so, for what it is worth I think that you should first explore more headphones on your audio journey. If I felt as strongly as you seem to feel I would always be looking backwards, wondering what I missed out on, if I did not follow my gut…. As has been suggested, you might want to buy a previously used headphone - you will get to experience that at a lower price and probably have little risk in reselling if it is not to your liking.

As to your question - “So IEMs just produce a better quality sound, apart from soundstage (since they are stuck into your ear)?” My opinion, and just my opinion, is that the tonality of music, in my experience, is better with IEMs. I mentioned in my earlier post that it is about physics…. Sound is just waves in the air, and waves interact with each other in constructive and destructive interference. Headphone drivers output sound waves very close to your ears, some of which will go into your ears, and others will reflect back off your head and as they bounce back toward the headphone will interact with the waves going toward your head, then bounce off of the headphone and interfere with the waves being output by the drivers, etc. To make this more real, if someone cups their hands around your ear and speaks to you it is a very different sound than if they speak to you without cupping their hands around your ear…. This results in a warmer sound that many actually enjoy - nothing wrong with that! - but that I find veiled and lacking clarity.

As to comfort, yeah, that can be a problem with IEMs. I am lucky in that for once my large ears (thanks, Dad!) help me have no discomfort with most IEMs, and by tip rolling I can find tips that work well with my ear canals.

Choices…. Great to have them, difficult to have to make them!!

I'm not sure how important soundstage is...I'm fine with the soundstage of a lower end audiophile soundstage of the PM3s.

I've spent thousands over the years, but have never heard a single pair of headphones or iems beyond $300 (USD), which is why I don't know which path to take.

I understand the physics, including the feel of the bass, where it is almost as if the headphones lift from my ears with bass impact. I suppose I want that in IEMs to a degree, to feel the frequency, rather than only hear it

 

[jsmiller58]

I'm not sure how important soundstage is...I'm fine with the soundstage of a lower end audiophile soundstage of the PM3s.

I've spent thousands over the years, but have never heard a single pair of headphones or iems beyond $300 (USD), which is why I don't know which path to take.

I understand the physics, including the feel of the bass, where it is almost as if the headphones lift from my ears with bass impact. I suppose I want that in IEMs to a degree, to feel the frequency, rather than only hear it

Well, for bass, I have never heard more bass than out of the Massdrop x Fostex th-x00 ebony headphones - I regret selling those years ago! If you want that visceral experience, we’ll, that also points to (edit Headphones! You can get great bass out of the right IEM, but it will not, in my opinion, be the same as out of headphones…

 

[Chris Kaoss]

I'm not sure how important soundstage is...I'm fine with the soundstage of a lower end audiophile soundstage of the PM3s.

I've spent thousands over the years, but have never heard a single pair of headphones or iems beyond $300 (USD), which is why I don't know which path to take.

I understand the physics, including the feel of the bass, where it is almost as if the headphones lift from my ears with bass impact. I suppose I want that in IEMs to a degree, to feel the frequency, rather than only hear it

Hmm.
The PM-3 isn't a great reference point when it comes to headstage (soundstage).
Even my FiiO FD5 has a wider, deeper stage with way better imaging qualities than the Oppo.
I like the PM-3 for its isolating abilities and portability, but when it comes to headstage width, depth and accuracy in imaging, that isn't its strength.

For example, the FD5 has more weight in the lows (on some track, you can "feel" the low bass), slightly better vocal performance and better clarity in the highs.
Caveat is, with wide nozzle and balance eartips on higher volume, the highs could become overbearing by a bit ( here comes the Final E-Tips into play for me ), but it never loose its imaging qualities, even on very busy tracks.

It's said that the FD7 has a softer high end but also slightly less bass (low bass) than the FD5.
So it should be a safer bet if someone is sensitive in the highs.

As I don't use EQ at any of my headphones, i wouldn't want to do without the FD5's bass.

 

[thepiper92]

Well, for bass, I have never heard more bass than out of the Massdrop x Fostex th-x00 ebony headphones - I regret selling those years ago! If you want that visceral experience, we’ll, that also points to IEMs! You can get great bass out of the right IEM, but it will not, in my opinion, be the same…

How does bass differ exactly? I'm coming from the Campfire Orion, which, on a whole, I didn't particularly enjoy

 

[thepiper92]

Hmm.
The PM-3 isn't a great reference point when it comes to headstage (soundstage).
Even my FiiO FD5 has a wider, deeper stage with way better imaging qualities than the Oppo.
I like the PM-3 for its isolating abilities and portability, but when it comes to headstage width, depth and accuracy in imaging, that isn't its strength.

For example, the FD5 has more weight in the lows (on some track, you can "feel" the low bass), slightly better vocal performance and better clarity in the highs.
Caveat is, with wide nozzle and balance eartips on higher volume, the highs could become overbearing by a bit ( here comes the Final E-Tips into play for me ), but it never loose its imaging qualities, even on very busy tracks.

It's said that the FD7 has a softer high end but also slightly less bass (low bass) than the FD5.
So it should be a safer bet if someone is sensitive in the highs.

As I don't use EQ at any of my headphones, i wouldn't want to do without the FD5's bass.

So the FD7 would be an improvement over the PM3, even with over ear versus in ear? I've no way to compare, as I live in a small town, and can't try out higher end headphones. I've never experienced high end ($1000 +) iems or headphones, which is why I'm unsure of what path to take. If $1000 iems are better than my PM3, I'd be impressed, to say the least, but I certainly don't want to feel I'm downgrading