bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
Expectation bias has a sound too!
I have a question about the new wave of "pure" beryllium drivers.
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Hifiearspeakers
Headphoneus Supremus
You're misunderstanding the context. No one is saying there aren't great headphones that have used different technologies and materials for their drivers. Bigshot was saying that newer driver materials, like the pure beryllium used in the Utopia, are snake oil and don't have any inherent sonic advantages. That is patently false. Beryllium has very unique properties like a very high stiffness to low mass ratio. It is also self damping. That's why the Utopia is considered one of the best, if not the best, at detail retrieval for a dynamic driver.
Yes, tuning and implementation is important, but that's a given and redundant to say so. These newer beryllium drivers and nano-thin planars are capable of much higher resolution than older headphone technology. It doesn't mean everyone will like them or want them, but to say they aren't capable of extracting a greater level of detail from the mix is absurd. And to keep throwing out broad, sweeping generalizations about newer tech in the Sound Science forum is disingenuous and lazy.
Hifiearspeakers
Headphoneus Supremus
Not cranky at all. Just sick and tired of your constant misinformation.
bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
That is EXACTLY what I was saying. And I even repeated it! How can you read four or five of my simple sentences and totally not register what I’m saying? You’ve got a chip on your shoulder and it’s blinding you. You’re making no attempt to listen to what I actually say. You’re just looking for a fight and I’m not interested.
Redcarmoose
Headphoneus Supremus
If a person hasn’t heard he latest IEMs, he is just guessing and making off the wall judgements about sound improvements. I myself only heard one in this picture, but it was enough to inform me that IEMs have changed in the last 5 years!
Hifiearspeakers
Headphoneus Supremus
You mean the part where you called beryllium snake oil?
Biscuit343
New Head-Fier
Okay. I guess I did misunderstand then. What I want to say is that sound is a subjective preference. Not everybody will enjoy what beryllium drivers are capable of offering without great tuning.
bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
Either you have comprehension problems, or you don't even read what I write. Whatever. I get it. You just want to mad dog me. Woof! Woof!
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Hifiearspeakers
Headphoneus Supremus
Redcarmoose
Headphoneus Supremus
The amazing part is bigshot doesn’t realize that IEMs have changed in the last 5 years. Not subtle.......but dramatic changes. Material and application. To deny this is fully ridiculous.
bfreedma
The Hornet!
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Constant insults are not helping your case.
Sorry Bigshot, but ignoring the differences in materials is short sighted - not sure how you can EQ driver stiffness/lightness into existence. Materials science is hugely impactful on modern headphone design. I think your preconceived biases are impacting your judgement.
castleofargh
Sound Science Forum Moderator
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Since @Hifiearspeakers doesn't seem to get mad, I’ve left the posts alone. But @bigshot, now would be a good time to stop the personal attacks. Those last posts don't make you look good.
About the topic, I know nothing about it so I didn't post until now. Something stiff and light that doesn't break too fast could make for a really good membrane. Is beryllium such a material? Again I don't have a clue, so I’ll just leave now.
About the topic, I know nothing about it so I didn't post until now. Something stiff and light that doesn't break too fast could make for a really good membrane. Is beryllium such a material? Again I don't have a clue, so I’ll just leave now.
Hifiearspeakers
Headphoneus Supremus
Yes it is. Beryllium is unique because it is one of the lightest metals (top 10) and also one of the stiffest metals( top 10) and yet still has a higher modulus of elasticity than steel. It is also self damping. Those properties allow for a low mass, highly rigid driver. That translates to the potential of a very fast transducer, with minimal distortion and modal breakup. That doesn't mean that will be achieved without proper implementation. And even in the Utopia, there are some ringing/resonances above 20khz. It's hard to say if that is due to the damping implemented by Focal or it is an inherent property of beryllium. But at least it happens in an inaudible part of the frequency range.
Just for the record, I'm not a fan of the Utopia. It's too bright for my tastes, but the speed of the drivers and it's resolution are undeniable; even when compared to my 800S and Verite. By the way, the Verite uses vapor-deposed beryllium drivers. The driver, itself, is made up of polyethylene naphthalate. Zach (the creator) chose that combination to get some of the speed of beryllium, but without the propensity of a "metallic" timbre.
-Beryllium is a steel gray and hard metal that is brittle at room temperature and has a close-packed hexagonal crystal structure.[6] It has exceptional stiffness (Young's modulus 287 GPa) and a melting point of 1287 C. The modulus of elasticity of beryllium is approximately 50% greater than that of steel. The combination of this modulus and a relatively low density results in an unusually fast sound conduction speed in beryllium – about 12.9 km/s at ambient conditions. Other significant properties are high specific heat (1925 J·kg−1·K−1) and thermal conductivity (216 W·m−1·K−1), which make beryllium the metal with the best heat dissipation characteristics per unit weight. In combination with the relatively low coefficient of linear thermal expansion (11.4×10−6 K−1), these characteristics result in a unique stability under conditions of thermal loading.[8]-
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bigshot
Headphoneus Supremus
There are great headphones and IEMs with different kinds of materials and designs as well. The difference that makes one better than the other is how those materials and designs are implemented. Just having a certain kind of driver doesn't mean that it sounds better. A lot of the discussion in audiophile forums about technical issues like this take place in a contextual vacuum. They discuss one aspect of a design and don't take into account the entire system. A transducer is subject to the laws of physics. There are dozens of factors at play. Sales literature always focuses on one aspect comparing it to competitors. The assumption is that if that one aspect is better, the overall sound is better. That isn't the case. Transducers aren't as cut and dried as electronics.
I would not recommend buying a set of headphones or IEMs just because they have beryllium drivers. The ones that fit that definition might be totally wrong for a particular person.
My frustration comes from straw men being propped up over and over, and from someone saying "nobody is saying x, y and z." right after I've said x, y and z twice. Respect is earned. I give respect where it's deserved. I'll try to ignore posters who single me out to dog me, but I'll point out that if it was happening to any of you, you wouldn't be any more patient than I am. Perhaps because it isn't you, you haven't noticed the repeated pattern. It's a lot easier to be tolerant and patient when you aren't the one being dogged.
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