[ProtegeManiac]

@Somebody007,
 
I'm not surprised they sound the same to you, the Headbox AFAIK is basically a CMOY-type circuit running off a PSU as opposed to a battery. Get a good Class A amp, or to be more flexible about it, an affordable DAC with a Class A headphone driver like the AudioGD NFB11 or NFB12. And listen to the right music, most pop and other modern music aren't recorded well for soundstage and imaging.

 

[Somebody007]

I guess it's rather funny I started of as I baby comparing ice cream flavours then my hobbies got more and more complicated and so did my methods of comparison: from display benchmarks to compare screen quality, to prime number searching proggrams to make my CPU suffer so I can say how well it takes it and then finally I reach audiologica and I'm back to comparing ice cream flavours.

Anyways, estreeter this wasn't as much a "you guys are crazy" thread as much as a "What am I doing wrong" thread

So far I've heard quite a few different things

1. upgrade dac

2. upgrade amp

3. get more experience

so to 1. I thought that sound card would be good and last me a while :S, I mean it was 120euros. Anyways no more buying new stuff for me unless I can really hear the difference. I have this CD player in the living room http://denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HiFiComponents&SubId=SACDCDPlayer&ProductId=DCD700AE would that be a better dac to compare amps on(edit:if the link doesn't help it costed 300euros in a shop last year if that give an indication towards the quality?)

then 2. Well I did some more testing and I feel the cmoy is better than the headbox(who knew the one I was raging about a last post I am now agreeing with and mind you he was talking about a well-made cmoy and I doubt mine falls into that category). In terms of detail I hear no difference, but the differences I mentioned before seem to be very present(to summarize I find the cmoy seperates the instruments from each other and from the vocals leading to me being able to hear each sound clearly in a different place and without them overlapping, however I find on the headbox they kind of come together more). I guess the dac produces the detail so if my SC is the problem here then it seems logical I cannot here differences in detail. Also is it possible a cmoy beats this headbox(my cmoy uses an opa2228 because, majkel, someone here on head-fi reccomended it, he is also the one who said the headbox was horrible and gets beaten by CMOYs I guess things start to make sense now). So I guess I return the headbox enjoy the stuff I have for a while and start building better amps and dacs?

3. Even though this is definately the most important factor I don't want to wait before I can start building/buying better equipment. Life is just too short

Thanks again the input is much appreciated.

 

[jcx]

a little instrumentation can help avoid comparing things that are basically broken
 
pc soundcard "oscilloscope" can show clipping, distortions although a real oscilloscope is much more trustworthy
 
fair subjective comparison requires SPL matching to 0.1 dB - you can't do that "by ear" a microphone/SPL meter and adapter would be needed to compare headphones sound output levels - and they will never match at all frequencies - headphones make the biggest difference in "sound"
 
amplifier output V at the TRS connector can be matched with soundcard, oscilloscope, or some fast AC voltmeters - 0.1 dB is ~ 1% voltage match - do it with the load headphone attached since some amps have series output impedance
 
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_crit.htm
 
the "just listen" standard advice here ignores known problems with our hearing, memory, and unconscious bias that can easily render casual listening "comparisons" nearly useless
 
to turn our subjective hearing perception into sufficiently reliable guidance for say choosing one amplifier design over another on truly "objective" signal reproduction characteristics requires level matching, clean fast switching, and must be done "blind" - without any other clue as to which amp/source/etc you are listening to except the sound itself
 
as permitted in the current rules you can debate the validity of DBT in the Sound Science forum - not in this thread - but I am allowed to point out that the technique exists and is the minimum standard required in any perceptual science
 
learning, training can improve "resolution", reliabilty of subjective judgements - http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/2011/01/welcome-to-how-to-listen.html
 

 

[n00kie]

The output impedance changes the sound signature of any amp. It is said that nearly 0 OHM is perfect for headphones. For example Sennheiser advertise their flahship HD 800 with Lehmann Audio Linear which has a very low output impendance of 5 OHM. On the other side Beyerdynamic stick to the standardized 120 OHM for their A1 amp. These high value delivers are more bassy, spacious sound with less treble if you compare it to most other amps with low output impedance.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

That Denon has a headphone driver and a volume  control, so that's at least a real driver circuit (as opposed to some that don't have volume control at all, dunno what they're for if they're liable to blow your eardrums.) Unless you really want to listen to music off your PC I'd rather use that Denon, and maybe save the CMOY for the iPod and the soundcard if you really need to listen from the PC. You'd  be surprised, no matter how good some affordable amps can get (AudioGD, Schiit, etc), a CDplayer with a TPA6120-based or similar dedicated headphone circuit aren;t really that bad on their own. I once hooked up my CMOY to my Marantz CD60 and found I liked the built-in amp a lot better, without hte hassle of a wire snaking to the front of the amp, given it was designed to have a line-out cable from a portable player over it as opposed to an equipment rack with cables hidden from view.

 

[Somebody007]

ty jcx for linking that proggram I just used it and looks very intresting.
 
I tried the denon cd player and it sounds pretty similar to the cmoy and headbox(so does everything else -_-). Also using it would not be an option I bassically use my computer all the time so I need my computer sound to be good.

Could I be correct in saying that all these basic amps I'm comparing are bound to be similar, because they probably use a similar basic layout?

I'm going to refund the headbox as there really is no point in keeping it. I would very much like to upgrade my setup, but I don't want to waste money either. I figure If I go diy it's not only cheaper but like that I gain experience and it's also fun. I would want to replace the headbox with something. I don't want to spend more than 200euros to be honest. So in short I'm looking for a DIY solution(dac or amp whichever you guys say is more important) that changes/improves my sound at least enough that I can notice it fairly easily(I would prefer something radically different rather than a bit better, because in the end for now I'm just in this to get more experienced, I heard tube amps seem to be quite different?). I like the bottlehead crack kit linked before, but their website safety apperently expired  according to google. Graham slee novo kit seems intresting too? Any other reccomendations? keep in mind I live in belgium so things like schiit(I love both the company and the look of those amps ) are hard(impossible really) to get  here.

Thanks again, you've been great help so far

 

[ETAHL]

Since you are a DIY Head-Fier, supercharge you Cmoy. Put a high power, high speed BUF643T buffer into the circuit.
The basic schematic is in the BUF643 factory spec sheet.
Make sure it gets plenty of good quality power. Super simple, and the amp will run along with the big dogs.

 

 

[Chris_Himself]

Most portable amps sound the same to me.
 
It's when you get into desktop amps do you find out all the fuss everyone is talking about. I wasn't really a believer in headamps until I bought a Gilmore Lite years ago. Recently I heard a Meier Audio Corda Concerto the other day which blew my mind away after dismissing headamps and moving back to Grado listening. Most portables except for some exceptional ones or a really powerful cmoy cant attain the output and low noise floor of a decent desktop amp.
 
My HD580's never sounded better and I really didn't think they'd scale that high with that expensive of an amp.

 

[Somebody007]

Alrighty then seems like I'm going for a better amp ideally I would go for the bottlehead crack, but if their website doesn't get fixed I'll need to find another solution. So far I'm looking at this graham slee novo kit http://www.diy-audio-kits.com/kits/novo-headphone-amplifier.htm or the little dot mk III I also like that idea of supercharging my cmoy, but then getting the parts for it is no easy task when living in belgium :s I'm assuming that's relativly low cost anyway so buying another desktop amp doesn't rule that idea out.

any opinions or little dot mk III or graham slee novo kit(both around same price: 120 pounds) also does anyone know how they compare to the bottlehead crack?

 

[ETAHL]

Quote:

getting the parts for it is no easy task when living in belgium :s

Ebay is your friend, no matter where you live. 

 

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

If you want to hear something quite different for your HD-650, order a Bottlehead Crack kit for $200. You have the skills to build it. And I promise that you'll notice your HD-650 behaving like you haven't heard it before.

 
Uncle Erik, I drew a line through tube amps after you told me that most everything under $1,000 is going to suffer from having too many corners cut - admittedly, I WAS trying to match a tube amp with low-impedance phones (Grados). DT880s would be a different proposition.

 
 

 

[sphinxvc]

Quote:

A good idea might be to invest in a DIY DAC kit and use the Xonar as transport only (preferably taking the SPDIF signal out from it to your DIY DAC). You can build a really decent little stand alone DAC for around 150 USD that will put the Xonar card to shame and it will demonstrate differences in amp choice rather easily.

x2
 

 

[Somebody007]

So I got a little dot mk iii today with some tubes and I installed everything and even after virtually no burn-in the lush tubey sound is apperent I can turn up the volume as much as I want and the harshness never gets uncomfortable or disturbing. I mean likes has been made abundantly clear differences are not very large, but so far I am quite satisfied with my purchase. 

Thanks again for your help

btw: I guess next is a good dac preferably diy, but can anyone advise anything that ships to europe?

 

[Optimus Praim]

Xonar D2X is a good soundcard no matter what some may say about soundcards being inferior compared to some entry level Dacs...
If i were you i wouldn't invest on a separate DAC but on a good amp..
I recently paired my D2X with an M-stage and the outcome is impressive..
In my opinion you won't experience dramatical changes moving to a dac below 500 bucks.
 

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Quote:

Xonar D2X is a good soundcard no matter what some may say about soundcards being inferior compared to some entry level Dacs...
If i were you i wouldn't invest on a separate DAC but on a good amp..
I recently paired my D2X with an M-stage and the outcome is impressive..
In my opinion you won't experience dramatical changes moving to a dac below 500 bucks.
 

He has a good starter tube amp...I have the Auzen Prelude (X Fi based) PCI SC that was being used as a DAC to the MK III. The combo was pretty good but it lacked refinement in every category worth mentioning...in other words the MKIII/HD650 system had a bottleneck at the source. Nothing can change the presentation to a large extent by swapping out amp after amp when the problem is the source first and foremost. Needless to say that once I relegated the Prelude card to "transport" only status which then fed a half decent (but low cost) outboard DAC did the amp/head phone combination  start to perform at another level of quality.
 
If one does not address source quality then any money spent on the back end of the system will never be fully utilized in terms of actual potential. The old saying "garbage in garbage out" is blunt but very true.
 
An outboard DAC is the last building block of the system chain that is absolutely crucial in terms of realizing all that the MK III/HD650 combination is actually capable of delivering. One the best tweaks for the MK III is to swap out the stock driver tubes (EF95/6AK5 tubes) for some NOS types (like Amperex EF95s, Sylvania 6AK5W black plate, round getter, Mullard large shield CV4015. or Tung Sol 403b). The DAC in addition to driver tube swap will really stand apart from the OP's current system as it now stands.
 
Peete.