[518141]

Still no contest for me - vinyl significantly outperforms digital all the time in terms of believeability/enjoyment of presentation...

...With regards to vinyl vs digital one thing to keep in mind is the analogue nature of the format...

Nostalgia obviously plays a decisive role in vinyl because otherwise it is not to explain to me that one further idealizes this format. In terms of metrology, vinyl is downright outclassed compared to the cd. When you play a vinyl nothing more than crackling and rustling come in. The vinyl typical noise is also so striking because it occurs irregularly. In order to present music as unadulterated as possible, all frequencies of the audible spectrum between 20 Hz and 20 kilohertz should be played equally loud. For digital media, the frequency responses look like they are drawn with the ruler. The differences people believe to hear in comparison can only be described as a placebo or voodoo effect.
The "warm" sound of the vinyl has two main reasons: the reduced treble level and the distortion in the bass range. Vinyl lovers basically behave as esoteric refuse technical progress because it does not fit into their worldview.
The technical possibilities in the digital field are fantastic. Besides HiRes formats, there are other exciting theoretical approaches such as upscaling (Chord Mscaler).

 

[x RELIC x]

While I agree with the above, it's not only the dynamic range that I hear when listening to vinyl that makes me enjoy it more - it's more that vinyl throws a fully open window realistic soundstage in a way that I just don't hear with digital. Instruments sound palpably real - SOLID if you like - in the space they occupy. Digital always sounds like a lesser shadow of that reality. On my scale of enjoyment, vinyl being 100%, the HMS/TT2 combo *has* got me closer than any other kit - let's say 95% there, but there's still *something* in the digital chain causing a problem. I suspect it's in the mixing/mastering stages somewhere that processing is damaging something important. When I digitise vinyl it's just a pure high resolution ADC/DAC process with no such extra processing and so the vinyl is perfectly captured, showing that digital CAN work. Maybe I need an HMS/Dave combo to eek that last few % out of native digital sources.

Crazy thing is that after spending 20 years chasing digital's "Perfect Sound Forever" I got the urge to try some of my old vinyl collection and bought a cheap £200 deck with a built in phono stage. It blew away my digital setup. 20 years of listening lost! That sent me even deeper down the rabbit hole, which is how I ended up with the HMS/TT2 (desperately trying to keep thread on topic!!) which as I said above made the biggest leap forward in digital I've yet heard. Vinyl is crazy expensive these days (you have to chase down all-analogue/first press recordings to get the most benefit) but it's worth it. And combined with digital through the HMS/TT2 my system has never sounded better across all sources.

I agree with some of what you are saying. Realistic soundstage and that solid feeling come from subtleties in the music. Many of these are destroyed in either poor mixing/mastering, or in dynamic compression which kills the natural impact/weight of the notes. It's been coined "wimpy loud sound" (click for link). It's very rare for an album to be mastered so well digitally and a large reason why digital is perceived to sound inferior. I also prefer live simple mic'd performances because they maintain the subtle cues that give a sense of space and placement that are missing completely when doing mixes with multiple recordings in isolation as is often done in music production.

So, when describing gear like the TT2, which is very good at retrieving the subtle detail and transients in the music, it's always good to mention what the music being listened to is otherwise many shortcomings or perceived benefits may well just be the the way the music was mixed/mastered.

Listen to the difference in this video:



This difference in the above example is only made more enjoyable when gear like what Rob has created is used listened with.

 

[Rob Watts]

My obviously biased two cents...

I just came back from a show where we had a Blu 2 Dave with Chord amplification with Dynaudio loudspeakers; plus a vinyl set-up was played extensively - the vinyl cost considerably more than the Blu 2 Dave.

So the first source sounded flat, with an aggressive treble, that hardened up with crescendos, with a soft bloated bass with poor pitch reproduction. It sounded edgy and slightly distorted.

The second source was very spacious, with immense instrument separation, a warm refined treble, a natural sense of flow and large natural timbre variations. Moreover, it was considerably more engaging and emotional than the first source.

Yes you guessed it - the second source was the Blu 2 Dave. I don't get vinyl at all - for me it simply doesn't have the musical benefits that people claim it has.

 

[Ards]

Nostalgia obviously plays a decisive role in vinyl because otherwise it is not to explain to me that one further idealizes this format. In terms of metrology, vinyl is downright outclassed compared to the cd. When you play a vinyl nothing more than crackling and rustling come in. The vinyl typical noise is also so striking because it occurs irregularly. In order to present music as unadulterated as possible, all frequencies of the audible spectrum between 20 Hz and 20 kilohertz should be played equally loud. For digital media, the frequency responses look like they are drawn with the ruler. The differences people believe to hear in comparison can only be described as a placebo or voodoo effect.
The "warm" sound of the vinyl has two main reasons: the reduced treble level and the distortion in the bass range. Vinyl lovers basically behave as esoteric refuse technical progress because it does not fit into their worldview.
The technical possibilities in the digital field are fantastic. Besides HiRes formats, there are other exciting theoretical approaches such as upscaling (Chord Mscaler).

Believe it or not, I have some sympathy with what you say. I understand the arguments against vinyl. I've been on that journey, it's just that I've just reached that place in my life where I trust my ears more than I trust your argument

 

[Ards]

I agree with some of what you are saying. Realistic soundstage and that solid feeling come from subtleties in the music. Many of these are destroyed in either poor mixing/mastering, or in dynamic compression which kills the natural impact/weight of the notes. It's been coined "wimpy loud sound" (click for link). It's very rare for an album to be mastered so well digitally and a large reason why digital is perceived to sound inferior. I also prefer live simple mic'd performances because they maintain the subtle cues that give a sense of space and placement that are missing completely when doing mixes with multiple recordings in isolation as is often done in music production.

So, when describing gear like the TT2, which is very good at retrieving the subtle detail and transients in the music, it's always good to mention what the music being listened to is otherwise many shortcomings or perceived benefits may well just be the the way the music was mixed/mastered.

Listen to the difference in this video:



This difference in the above example is only made more enjoyable when gear like what Rob has created is used listened with.

Agreed, and well [painfully so] aware of the LOUDNESS war. Some of the audiophile digital recordings out there really do sound amazing; really getting close to what I hear with analogue, but still not quite there. Maybe it's something in MY chain that is root of the issue... I mean, when we get to the stage where ethernet switches and cables and power supplies etc etc all make audible differences, then all bets are off. Perhaps this is the key to vinyl's superiority in my system - there's simply a shorter chain from source to sound and less opportunity to degrade it.

 

[kelly200269]

My obviously biased two cents...

I just came back from a show where we had a Blu 2 Dave with Chord amplification with Dynaudio loudspeakers; plus a vinyl set-up was played extensively - the vinyl cost considerably more than the Blu 2 Dave.

So the first source sounded flat, with an aggressive treble, that hardened up with crescendos, with a soft bloated bass with poor pitch reproduction. It sounded edgy and slightly distorted.

The second source was very spacious, with immense instrument separation, a warm refined treble, a natural sense of flow and large natural timbre variations. Moreover, it was considerably more engaging and emotional than the first source.

Yes you guessed it - the second source was the Blu 2 Dave. I don't get vinyl at all - for me it simply doesn't have the musical benefits that people claim it has.

I’m finding exactly the same in my system Rob.
My system is relatively modest, but my Linn LP12 now sounds sub-par to my HMS/TT2. The dynamic range with vinyl just isn’t there compared to TT2, and the pitch inaccuracies with classical piano are especially distracting.
I’m taking my LP12 in for a couple of upgrades (probably Radikal & Keel), so I’m hoping these will help ‘close the gap’. But I’m still expecting vinyl to remain my secondary source in the future.

 

[Ards]

So the first source sounded flat, with an aggressive treble, that hardened up with crescendos, with a soft bloated bass with poor pitch reproduction. It sounded edgy and slightly distorted.

Just to say, my comments are simply in the spirit of discussion...

This is why I'm scratching my head so much over this. I *GET* the criticisms of vinyl (although I dispute the FLAT sound and aggressive treble - something wrong in the system there); bass absolutely *is* compromised; poor pitch is a problem, but largely down to the replay turntable. Noise floor *IS* higher. End of sides have more distortion. Etc. And I *UNDERSTAND* the arguments for digital (as well as the negatives.) I've been exploring them myself as a digital listener since CD first appeared. BUT. BUT. BUT. After forty plus years of listening, and despite all the flaws, when I listen to vinyl replay it's the closest I ever get to a genuine engagement with real music. It sounds like real music. It *feels* like real music. I am *constantly* drawn into the music rather than it being some blah noise in the background... I tend to use digital listening these days as a very convenient (thanks to streaming) audition for finding music I'd like to own on vinyl

Thanks to the HMS/TT2, my digital replay has made *massive* strides forwards in those things I value in music replay to the point where I genuinely enjoy digital as well but I sit here, still scratching my head as to why my vinyl replay still sounds more like music to me than native digital sources do... especially when, as noted, I'm digitising my vinyl as it passes through some declicker hardware so I am actually listening to digital music.

My conclusion is that digital audio is simply broken - there's something either in the delivery of it, eg the impossibility of perfect delivery of PCM over multiple interfaces, causing problems (jitter/noise floor modulation etc) and/or in the critical timed based reconstruction, eg clock jitter, that is causing this. Not to mention issues with filters/aliasing etc. I think the solution is an entirely new method of delivering digital audio from source to speakers that is entirely free from all the issues that digital currently struggles with... maybe THEN we finally get transparent-to-source analogue sound back from digital sources. Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to come up with that solution

 

[kelly200269]

Just to say, my comments are simply in the spirit of discussion...

This is why I'm scratching my head so much over this. I *GET* the criticisms of vinyl (although I dispute the FLAT sound and aggressive treble - something wrong in the system there); bass absolutely *is* compromised; poor pitch is a problem, but largely down to the replay turntable. Noise floor *IS* higher. End of sides have more distortion. Etc. And I *UNDERSTAND* the arguments for digital (as well as the negatives.) I've been exploring them myself as a digital listener since CD first appeared. BUT. BUT. BUT. After forty plus years of listening, and despite all the flaws, when I listen to vinyl replay it's the closest I ever get to a genuine engagement with real music. It sounds like real music. It *feels* like real music. I am *constantly* drawn into the music rather than it being some blah noise in the background... I tend to use digital listening these days as a very convenient (thanks to streaming) audition for finding music I'd like to own on vinyl

Thanks to the HMS/TT2, my digital replay has made *massive* strides forwards in those things I value in music replay to the point where I genuinely enjoy digital as well but I sit here, still scratching my head as to why my vinyl replay still sounds more like music to me than native digital sources do... especially when, as noted, I'm digitising my vinyl as it passes through some declicker hardware so I am actually listening to digital music.

My conclusion is that digital audio is simply broken - there's something either in the delivery of it, eg the impossibility of perfect delivery of PCM over multiple interfaces, causing problems (jitter/noise floor modulation etc) and/or in the critical timed based reconstruction, eg clock jitter, that is causing this. Not to mention issues with filters/aliasing etc. I think the solution is an entirely new method of delivering digital audio from source to speakers that is entirely free from all the issues that digital currently struggles with... maybe THEN we finally get transparent-to-source analogue sound back from digital sources. Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to come up with that solution

The digital vs analogue debate will always be there.
I'm just glad, and feel privileged to have both

 

[Ards]

Can't argue with that!

 

[GreenBow]

My obviously biased two cents...

I just came back from a show where we had a Blu 2 Dave with Chord amplification with Dynaudio loudspeakers; plus a vinyl set-up was played extensively - the vinyl cost considerably more than the Blu 2 Dave.

So the first source sounded flat, with an aggressive treble, that hardened up with crescendos, with a soft bloated bass with poor pitch reproduction. It sounded edgy and slightly distorted.

The second source was very spacious, with immense instrument separation, a warm refined treble, a natural sense of flow and large natural timbre variations. Moreover, it was considerably more engaging and emotional than the first source.

Yes you guessed it - the second source was the Blu 2 Dave. I don't get vinyl at all - for me it simply doesn't have the musical benefits that people claim it has.

DAVE-Blu2 aside, Dynaudio make some lovely speakers. Before I bought some Dynaudio Special Forty, I was using Dynaudio Emit M10. M10 are small speakers, and I liked them a lot. When I finally got around to buying some closer to neutral speaker cable, I was deeply impressed wit the sound. It went from a touch bright with the old cable, to really something with the new cable. Of course it was being driven with TT2 so, it was going to be doing spectacular things at that level.

With the new speaker cable though, I would often find myself thinking how the system would 'sing'. Then not long after in one of the pro-mag reviews of the Naim Nait XS3, I heard them use that expression too. They said the amplifier 'sings'. I am not sure I even heard that expression before for hifi kit. However me coming up with that on my own, shows just how happy a speaker Dynaudio makes. The Special Forty are perfect too, and far more bassy with an extra 40Hz low frequency response.

One of the main qualities of the Dynaudio that I have owned, is they still sound fab at low/very-low volumes.

 

[kelly200269]

Nostalgia obviously plays a decisive role in vinyl because otherwise it is not to explain to me that one further idealizes this format. In terms of metrology, vinyl is downright outclassed compared to the cd. When you play a vinyl nothing more than crackling and rustling come in. The vinyl typical noise is also so striking because it occurs irregularly. In order to present music as unadulterated as possible, all frequencies of the audible spectrum between 20 Hz and 20 kilohertz should be played equally loud. For digital media, the frequency responses look like they are drawn with the ruler. The differences people believe to hear in comparison can only be described as a placebo or voodoo effect.
The "warm" sound of the vinyl has two main reasons: the reduced treble level and the distortion in the bass range. Vinyl lovers basically behave as esoteric refuse technical progress because it does not fit into their worldview.
The technical possibilities in the digital field are fantastic. Besides HiRes formats, there are other exciting theoretical approaches such as upscaling (Chord Mscaler).

As a vinyl lover myself...? I couldn’t agree more! lol

 

[zorilon]

Did anyone encounter this problem?
It is the second bred new unit that stops working in a month. It is very frustrating. I had a Schiit Yggdrasil for 3 years, a second hand Chord Hugo TT and Mojo for two year and had no problem with them. How can this expensive Hugo TT2 be reliable a couple of years, if it is not working after a week of moderate use?

 

[miketlse]

Did anyone encounter this problem?
It is the second bred new unit that stops working in a month. It is very frustrating. I had a Schiit Yggdrasil for 3 years, a second hand Chord Hugo TT and Mojo for two year and had no problem with them. How can this expensive Hugo TT2 be reliable a couple of years, if it is not working after a week of moderate use?

Sorry to hear of your problems with TT2.
If no one here has experienced a similar problem, then your best bet is to email support@chordelectronics.co.uk , and they will be able to propose the best way forward for you.

 

[betula]

Did anyone encounter this problem?
It is the second bred new unit that stops working in a month. It is very frustrating. I had a Schiit Yggdrasil for 3 years, a second hand Chord Hugo TT and Mojo for two year and had no problem with them. How can this expensive Hugo TT2 be reliable a couple of years, if it is not working after a week of moderate use?

That is frustrating. I wonder if it has something to do with speakers connected? Are you experiencing the same issue with only headphones connected?
I am not an expert but it seems like some safety circuitry kicking off.

 

[zorilon]

That is frustrating. I wonder if it has something to do with speakers connected? Are you experiencing the same issue with only headphones connected?
I am not an expert but it seems like some safety circuitry kicking off.

I tried to power the unit without any input or output connected and had the same results. I will contact the dealer tomorrow to see what he can do.