[chelseafc]

I am looking for some advice from experienced listeners.

Just when I thought I am done tinkering, I tried one more thing
My setup:
Wiim Pro Streamer -> Toslink HMS (Bixpower) -> OPTO-TX (Bixpower) -> OPTO-RX (Bixpower) -> DAVE
I was hoping to replace HMS battery with a good PS to simplify the setup a bit.
When I powered the HMS by iFi Power Elite, I was stunned by the change.
It sounded very different from both the stock PS and Bixpower (which were very close, almost undistinguishable).

Here is my dilemma - I have two distinctly different sounds, which I both like, but I have no idea which one is more "true".
Both of them are void of nasty RF distortions that were mostly eliminated by all the tweaks I've done to my system.

With the stock power supply the vocals (esp male) are weightier, with more bass, but also are larger in space, almost "out of focus" if I use photography analogy.
With iFi Power Elite, the imaging is absolutely insane, every instrument and voice becomes "smaller" in space, there is also incredible sense of height and depth.
Ella Fitzgerald's voice in "Like Someone In Love" was suspended in the air, I could almost draw a sphere around it.
Also, transients are "zingier" with iFi, but not as offensive (to my taste) as with a standalone out of the box DAVE.

I am leaning towards iFi Power Elite, but cannot get my head around the fact that it sounds "better" than an unregulated battery output.

I would appreciate any guidance here.

Forgot to mention, I am using large speakers, not headphones.

 

[HC1205]

I am looking for some advice from experienced listeners.

Just when I thought I am done tinkering, I tried one more thing
My setup:
Wiim Pro Streamer -> Toslink HMS (Bixpower) -> OPTO-TX (Bixpower) -> OPTO-RX (Bixpower) -> DAVE
I was hoping to replace HMS battery with a good PS to simplify the setup a bit.
When I powered the HMS by iFi Power Elite, I was stunned by the change.
It sounded very different from both the stock PS and Bixpower (which were very close, almost undistinguishable).

Here is my dilemma - I have two distinctly different sounds, which I both like, but I have no idea which one is more "true".
Both of them are void of nasty RF distortions that were mostly eliminated by all the tweaks I've done to my system.

With the stock power supply the vocals (esp male) are weightier, with more bass, but also are larger in space, almost "out of focus" if I use photography analogy.
With iFi Power Elite, the imaging is absolutely insane, every instrument and voice becomes "smaller" in space, there is also incredible sense of height and depth.
Ella Fitzgerald's voice in "Like Someone In Love" was suspended in the air, I could almost draw a sphere around it.
Also, transients are "zingier" with iFi, but not as offensive (to my taste) as with a standalone out of the box DAVE.

I am leaning towards iFi Power Elite, but cannot get my head around the fact that it sounds "better" than an unregulated battery output.

I would appreciate any guidance here.

Forgot to mention, I am using large speakers, not headphones.

From my experience after comparing stock and ifi power X for decent time now:
In a stock power supply, the mid-range appears weightier and larger in size, a bit more bass and sub bass quantity.

With the iFi power supply, however, the mid-range becomes smaller yet more delicate and lifelike. Instruments' placement becomes more 3D with leading edges become clearer, as if they were previously covered with a blanket under the stock supply, resulting in an opened-up soundstage.

If you listen vocals carefully, the stock supply masks subtle details and nuances even if it offers better presence of vocals.
In my opinion, the Ifi power supply represents how it should sound, but your mileage may vary.

 

[The Jester]

I’m always mindful of one of Rob’s comments in one of his presentations on careful listening, it’s different but is it “better”, and listen for more variation as sign of real improvement mellow instruments are darker or more mellow while brighter instruments remain similar or brighter, if everything just gets brighter, or more mellow it’s just a change in tonality rather than an improvement in transparency, difficult to judge sometimes …

 

[chelseafc]

From my experience after comparing stock and ifi power X for decent time now:
In a stock power supply, the mid-range appears weightier and larger in size, a bit more bass and sub bass quantity.

With the iFi power supply, however, the mid-range becomes smaller yet more delicate and lifelike. Instruments' placement becomes more 3D with leading edges become clearer, as if they were previously covered with a blanket under the stock supply, resulting in an opened-up soundstage.

If you listen vocals carefully, the stock supply masks subtle details and nuances even if it offers better presence of vocals.
In my opinion, the Ifi power supply represents how it should sound, but your mileage may vary.

This is consistent with my experience.
Trying to rationalize, I don‘t think 3D or better separation, subtle details could be “faked” or created by a poor PS.
On the other hand, the perceived weight or better bass, could be a result of some modulation that PS noise creates on the lower end.
This proves once more that the optical link passes through all kinds of digital noise all the way to the DAC, and not a panacea as many lead to believe.

 

[chelseafc]

I’m always mindful of one of Rob’s comments in one of his presentations on careful listening, it’s different but is it “better”, and listen for more variation as sign of real improvement mellow instruments are darker or more mellow while brighter instruments remain similar or brighter, if everything just gets brighter, or more mellow it’s just a change in tonality rather than an improvement in transparency, difficult to judge sometimes …

Rob’s comments is exactly what threw me off.
Ifi could be perceived initially as a bit brighter, but with careful listening I discover more details and separation.
I will need to better understand his concept of variation to use it as a defining criteria.

 

[HC1205]

This is consistent with my experience.
Trying to rationalize, I don‘t think 3D or better separation, subtle details could be “faked” or created by a poor PS.
On the other hand, the perceived weight or better bass, could be a result of some modulation that PS noise creates on the lower end.
This proves once more that the optical link passes through all kinds of digital noise all the way to the DAC, and not a panacea from everything as many lead to believe.

Increased holographic sound could be the result of increased clarity (not brightness at all, just clarity) that let me hear better instrument placement.

 

[chelseafc]

I’m always mindful of one of Rob’s comments in one of his presentations on careful listening, it’s different but is it “better”, and listen for more variation as sign of real improvement mellow instruments are darker or more mellow while brighter instruments remain similar or brighter, if everything just gets brighter, or more mellow it’s just a change in tonality rather than an improvement in transparency, difficult to judge sometimes …

I’ve been following Rob almost religiously and highly respect his opinion on variety of digital audio topics.
It is puzzling though that he chose a PS for the M Scaler that could be easily surpassed by a $300 switching PS from another vendor.
I would bet that only a small minority of Chord customers would have an issue with paying for a proper PS as part of the package.

 

[Jawed]

This is consistent with my experience.
Trying to rationalize, I don‘t think 3D or better separation, subtle details could be “faked” or created by a poor PS.
On the other hand, the perceived weight or better bass, could be a result of some modulation that PS noise creates on the lower end.
This proves once more that the optical link passes through all kinds of digital noise all the way to the DAC, and not a panacea as many lead to believe.

DAVE and the amplifier you're using to drive your speakers are subject to RF noise via their connection to the mains. One or both of these might be reacting to the presence of the mains connections you are using to power HMS.

In my experience all power cables, AC and DC, benefit from ferrites over their entire length.

You might get a relevant data point by having both the stock HMS power supply and the iFi Elite powered up simultaneously and comparing with only one powered up. Though there is the question of whether they will be "active" when there's no load on them - e.g. if HMS is not running off an SMPS, the SMPS might "go to sleep".

You can do more testing by feeding DAVE directly with TOSLINK from your streamer and at the same time feeding HMS with music (from a different source, e.g. a computer or a TV - TVs often have TOSLINK outputs). In this scenario, you are listening to music from the streamer and DAVE only, with no connection between HMS and DAVE. You can find out whether the SMPS that is powering HMS has an effect in this situation. And you can find out whether the activity of HMS (idle or upsampling) has an effect on the music playback of DAVE + amplifier.

I think variation is the key in discerning taste if you've reached a point where "obvious" RF problems (e.g. intelligibility of lyrics) have been "solved". When a studio album has different masterings across the tracks, or a live album is effectively a compilation from many nights in different auditoria, which setup shows the most variation?

I can't tell from your hardware configuration: are you using one, two or three Bixpower batteries? If only one or two, I would expect the best place for the unregulated output to be powering the OPTO-RX - but I say that as someone who has never investigated the use of stuff from that company.

In general, it's my understanding that a battery should only be used to power a single device - when it powers more than one device it becomes a conduit for noise amongst all of the devices it's being used to power.

 

[chelseafc]

DAVE and the amplifier you're using to drive your speakers are subject to RF noise via their connection to the mains. One or both of these might be reacting to the presence of the mains connections you are using to power HMS.

In my experience all power cables, AC and DC, benefit from ferrites over their entire length.

You might get a relevant data point by having both the stock HMS power supply and the iFi Elite powered up simultaneously and comparing with only one powered up. Though there is the question of whether they will be "active" when there's no load on them - e.g. if HMS is not running off an SMPS, the SMPS might "go to sleep".

You can do more testing by feeding DAVE directly with TOSLINK from your streamer and at the same time feeding HMS with music (from a different source, e.g. a computer or a TV - TVs often have TOSLINK outputs). In this scenario, you are listening to music from the streamer and DAVE only, with no connection between HMS and DAVE. You can find out whether the SMPS that is powering HMS has an effect in this situation. And you can find out whether the activity of HMS (idle or upsampling) has an effect on the music playback of DAVE + amplifier.

I think variation is the key in discerning taste if you've reached a point where "obvious" RF problems (e.g. intelligibility of lyrics) have been "solved". When a studio album has different masterings across the tracks, or a live album is effectively a compilation from many nights in different auditoria, which setup shows the most variation?

I can't tell from your hardware configuration: are you using one, two or three Bixpower batteries? If only one or two, I would expect the best place for the unregulated output to be powering the OPTO-RX - but I say that as someone who has never investigated the use of stuff from that company.

In general, it's my understanding that a battery should only be used to power a single device - when it powers more than one device it becomes a conduit for noise amongst all of the devices it's being used to power.

I am using 3 separate batteries, trying to remove the one that powers the HMS.
I doubt a noise from the mains is at play here, because my HMS is physically removed from the DAVE (15ft away and on a separate power circuit).
I also have ferrites on every power or BNC connection.
My strong suspicion is that the PS noise modulates SPDIF optical signal which causes noise on the receiving side of the link.
While it's been repeatedly stated that the DAVE is immune to SPDIF jitter, a mere presence of a jittery signal at its input could excite unwanted disturbances through parasitic paths (power or ground, for example).

One would think we should not be even talking about such things given the price point of the DAVE, but apparently it has multiple vulnerabilities that has not been mitigated through design.

 

[LeeJB1970]

I am using 3 separate batteries, trying to remove the one that powers the HMS.
I doubt a noise from the mains is at play here, because my HMS is physically removed from the DAVE (15ft away and on a separate power circuit).
I also have ferrites on every power or BNC connection.
My strong suspicion is that the PS noise modulates SPDIF optical signal which causes noise on the receiving side of the link.
While it's been repeatedly stated that the DAVE is immune to SPDIF jitter, a mere presence of a jittery signal at its input could excite unwanted disturbances through parasitic paths (power or ground, for example).

One would think we should not be even talking about such things given the price point of the DAVE, but apparently it has multiple vulnerabilities that has not been mitigated through design.

My understanding is that mains noise is in play if you use any power supply for the MScaler. Just use one of the Bixpower for the MScaler and ensure you use optical input. That is the only way to mitigate noise from the Macaler. You can then dispose of the extra Bixpower and Opto-DX.

 

[chelseafc]

My understanding is that mains noise is in play if you use any power supply for the MScaler. Just use one of the Bixpower for the MScaler and ensure you use optical input. That is the only way to mitigate noise from the Macaler. You can then dispose of the extra Bixpower and Opto-DX.

But without OPTO-DX the HMS's noise will have an unimpeded path to the DAVE, no?

 

[LeeJB1970]

But without OPTO-DX the HMS's noise will have an unimpeded path to the DAVE, no?

Not if you’re using battery and optical in. You won’t even need expensive bnc cables!

 

[chelseafc]

Not if you’re using battery and optical in. You won’t even need expensive bnc cables!

Are you talking about optical in to DAVE?
That would limit you to 192Khz, deeming HMS almost useless.
Am I missing something?

 

[LeeJB1970]

Are you talking about optical in to DAVE?
That would limit you to 192Khz, deeming HMS almost useless.
Am I missing something?

No, optical input for MScaler from your source. If you don’t have toslink then use a ddc. I use the Topping D10 balanced as a ddc.

 

[chelseafc]

No, optical input for MScaler from your source. If you don’t have toslink then use a ddc. I use the Topping D10 balanced as a ddc.

Yes, but then what would prevent the HMS radio station from transmitting straight into the DAVE? Ferrites?
This s what OPTO-DX is for, but as I said earlier, it is not a panacea