Jun 20, 2022 at 2:24 PM Post #15,496 of 19,717
What triode says listen listen and listen. There are no so called measurements of clean power. These power supplies are carefully tuned for audio throughout the years. Print design, how to design you ground areas how to place you component vs what components. I have gotten a crash course in lps for audio. Myself i am an electronics engineer from the 90’ and did alot of audio repair in the days and ic design etc.. orcad ultiboard that kind of stuff but what i learned last few month about clean power and audio is not something i would have figured out myself. Everything matters and all can color sound. The trick is to get it clean and neutral to the used application. Its not just e few regulators, rf filters and a pcb…. A damn lot more to get it correct without adding something.

I have seen tricks and schematics on mattijs his computer last few month on a level i will never reach. He is oem designing lps’s for msb and lumin. Just wow.
 
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Jun 20, 2022 at 2:25 PM Post #15,497 of 19,717
Guess I am asking as I heard positive differences but also some increased brightness ... guessing from RF noise. My wife threw me for a loop after she said "what did you do, something is missing" vs solo Dave lol .... (she is not an audiophile, but made me question what I was hearing lol)
These remarks from my wife keep me also in pace..😂
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 2:25 PM Post #15,498 of 19,717
Guess I am asking as I heard positive differences but also some increased brightness ... guessing from RF noise. My wife threw me for a loop after she said "what did you do, something is missing" vs solo Dave lol .... (she is not an audiophile, but made me question what I was hearing lol)
Well OK then, yes I do prefer solo Dave compared to the Mscaler with its supplied cables. But really they are only intended to be a get you going set of cables and are not envisaged to be a permanent fixture.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 2:34 PM Post #15,499 of 19,717
My wife threw me for a loop after she said "what did you do, something is missing" vs solo Dave lol .... (she is not an audiophile, but made me question what I was hearing lol)

Lol i'm holding my breath for when the new Mscaler comes 🤢 and no 2nd hands available then.. Something in me dont want it to come😄
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 2:36 PM Post #15,500 of 19,717
Hmm so even HMS/Dave/Farad you preferred the Dave/Farad? Part of me thinks this is the way to go as well. Clean up the power. Does Farad power supplies show any graphs on what it is doing to the power? Curious on how much cleaner things get ...
I am sure MVRBE10 preferred Dave/Farad above Dave/Farad/HMS even with Wave Reference BNC cables (as I bought his Wave cables). I listened only very shortly to his system and still I was very afraid his system would lead me to buy Dave + Farad.... Goose bumps when listening, wow.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 2:44 PM Post #15,501 of 19,717
Lol i'm holding my breath for when the new Mscaler comes 🤢 and no 2nd hands available then.. Something in me dont want it to come😄
I'm holding everything on me in preparation of the new MScaler price and then the waiting time to get one. When I see how much I'll probably 'do a big one' and then when I join the waiting list I'll probably be watching many seasons pass by in my garden.
 
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Jun 20, 2022 at 2:50 PM Post #15,502 of 19,717
Just listening to this guys, try it on you system you will here the hall breath around the piano. Never heard it this awsome
 

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Jun 20, 2022 at 3:57 PM Post #15,503 of 19,717
I am sure MVRBE10 preferred Dave/Farad above Dave/Farad/HMS even with Wave Reference BNC cables (as I bought his Wave cables). I listened only very shortly to his system and still I was very afraid his system would lead me to buy Dave + Farad.... Goose bumps when listening, wow.
When I first heard my Dave powered by a Sean Jacobs power supply (a DC3) I also got goose bumps and started listening to solo Dave without the Mscaler because it sounded so good. But then after while the novelty wore off and I put the Mscaler back in the system. Since then the Mscaler has been a permanent fixture in my system despite three different upgrades to my Dave power supply. Yes solo Dave with a good power supply sounds great but in my system it sounds even better with the Mscaler. Mind you, I initially started with a Farad Super3 powering my Mscaler and I was very happy with it for many months but I changed to a Dc3 as soon as I heard the comparison. Since then I have upgraded my Mscaler to a DC4 powering it and after that to an ARC6. So to be fair it is possible that my Mscaler does not sound the same as MVRBE10’s Mscaler. 😜

I was recently asked to lend my ears to evaluate something that Sean Jacobs was thinking of incorporating in the ARC6. As ever the mission has been driven by seeking out true realism rather than artefact generated pseudo realism. A quite telling track I have been using is Rajaz by Camel from the album of the same name. It has an acoustic guitar through most of the track and in truth it sounds great no matter what but by experimenting it becomes apparent that the acoustic guitar notes can be too ‘ultra realsitic’. Fine tuning of the power supply meant that the plucked notes on the guitar lost their sort of twangy splashy texture and one can begin to hear the individual components of the player plucking the guitar strings. It is the same with the drums and when the ‘incessant’ type of sound is got rid of then everything comes into balance and the driving bass guitar takes over the later sections of the track. But there is no way of guessing that all that subtlety is missing until it is revealed. That is what I meant by the track sounding great anyway but its just that one does not realise how superb it can sound until the sound is properly sorted.

Anyway, its all good fun and I love that track from around 1999. Its very interesting to pick up some of the influences that Camel must have have been listening to at the time.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 4:06 PM Post #15,504 of 19,717
agree on most, if i learned one thing the last few weeks is be open for everything, listen to everything and choose what fits your ears, system and wallet. If all falls together we are in heaven with our audio. Next year i asume all will be different and the learning curve is improved. Its what our hobby makes such fun.👍🏻
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 5:08 PM Post #15,505 of 19,717
Well OK then, yes I do prefer solo Dave compared to the Mscaler with its supplied cables. But really they are only intended to be a get you going set of cables and are not envisaged to be a permanent fixture.
What a tragedy, what a a train-wreck, what a complete disaster this thread and this product has become.

Here we have a guy, @Triode User, whose products are openly endorsed by @Rob Watts, who tells people all over the web how he uses @Rob Watts approved listening tests, who says that the M Scaler/DAVE in the state they were designed, with off the shelf cables, is worse sounding than the DAVE by itself. So until @Rob Watts got given his WAVE cables the M Scaler made the DAVE sound worse.

Let that sink in.

@Rob Watts: How can you continue to endorse @Triode User and his products in view of his claim that a standard M Scaler makes a DAVE sound worse? And considering that he has replaced the power supplies in both his DAVE and MScaler with 3rd party ones? Do you really think that anyone with any sense will take your future products seriously? When this product launched there was joy at the musical pleasure it gave and it was expressed on this thread. Now there is just page after page about RF. Very sad.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 5:19 PM Post #15,506 of 19,717
Correct - the M scaler PSU input is regulated down to 5v, and the 5v feeds everything via RF filters and regulators. Also, 16v could cause damage to the unit, so don't run at 16v.

I too have a Krisdonia, so will try it at 9v from 12v on my flight to Chicago (for CanJam) on Friday - and you are correct, smoother and warmer is the better sound, not the pseudo impressive bright sound from RF noise and noise floor modulation.
Hi Rob,

Hope you had a good CanJam. Wondering if you had a chance to try 9v from the Krisdonia? Any perceptible differences?

Also you mentioned before if one uses a power bank this would mitigate most of the RF noise seeping into the M-Scaler which would make ferrited BNC cables not as needed? Wondering on your take. Thanks again.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 6:21 PM Post #15,507 of 19,717
Hi folks, wondering is it normal that the body of M scaler carry some electric? Seems like a ground issue, when I touch it I can feel some electric on it, and if I'm wearing a LCD-5, I can hear the hum when I touch the M scaler, the hum go away when I take off my hand... Wondering is it a quality issue of my unit or a common issue?
My TT2 doesn't have this issue, given they both plugged on the same power outlet
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 6:33 PM Post #15,508 of 19,717
I found a post by Rob where he goes over his M-Scaler presentation and adds some additional comments on this thread. I then closed it for mistake and didn't finish reading it. It was in 2018. I was searching Rob's old messages but haven't found it yet. Wondering if any Headfi sleuth can find this for me. It would be greatly appreciated. Heck, any additional info on the inner workings of the M-Scaler would be useful.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 6:50 PM Post #15,509 of 19,717
Youtube it he gave some readings on how his sincx function works and what his strategy is on finding his best sound reproduction.
 
Jun 20, 2022 at 10:11 PM Post #15,510 of 19,717
Here is my presentation from CanJam:

Slide1.JPG

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So here I am talking about how important timing of transients is to perception - the implication being is if transient timing has errors (transients being too early or too late, then this will degrade lateral imagery, or left to right instrument placement.

Slide3.JPG
This illustrates that the brain relies on transients of bass notes in order to infer the pitch. Again, the implication is if there are timing errors then the brain will be confused and won't be able to perceive bass notes.

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Again psychoacoustic studies have shown that transients are important information for the perception of timbre. Again, the implication is if transients have timing errors, then timbre perception will get degraded.

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So I have talked about the fact that transients are important, and now it's about the specific timing problem that DAC's introduce.

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So this is a simple illustration of the problem of reproducing transients, and why it is conventional interpolation filters create very large timing errors. So we can see here a sine wave tone burst, and the digital data actually loses the initial burst, as it samples it at the start of the transient.

Slide7.JPG

So the top waveform will be the output from the "audiophile" filters - that actually create timing errors, as in this case we have a peak error of full amplitude - so the reconstruction gets the sign right, but nothing else. So in this particular circumstance, the OP is only 1 bit accurate. But the second waveform is perfectly reconstructed - and if we used an ideal sinc function filter (known as a Whittaker-Shannon interpolation filter) then it will perfectly reconstruct it, with no errors, and in particular no transient timing errors.

You may ask if the audiophile filters have such huge problems, then why do people like them? The issue is simple; when you get these huge transient errors, the brain can't make sense of the audio; when it can't make sense of something, it draws a blank, and you can't actually perceive the transients. And when you can't perceive transients properly, then things sound softer - it's the equivalent of making the image go out of focus, as you can no longer perceive sharp details. You can't follow the pitch of the bass, and it sounds big and fat. But of course the image goes big and flat too, as imagery is degraded; and instruments sound similar with poor timbre variations.

Slide8.JPG

So this covers the theoretical ideal - if we use a sinc function filter, it will perfectly reconstruct it, with no transient timing errors.

Slide9.JPG

But to implement an ideal sinc function interpolation filter, we need an infinite amount of processing... Something not possible!

Slide10.JPG

So we can improve on conventional algorithms ability to reconstruct transients correctly - and this led to my WTA interpolation algorithm. It has been optimised to reduce the error, with a finite amount of processing (or taps). Actually, the WTA algorithm has evolved as tap length has increased, and today it is very similar to an ideal sinc function - over half the coefficients are identical to the ideal sinc function. A windowing function is the process that is used to tailor the sinc function from an infinite response into a small finite one, of a size we can actually use.

Slide11.JPG

So this links history, and shows the relationship between sound quality and tap length with the WTA filter.

Slide12.JPG

Some personal history - I have been waiting for this for a long time!

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The importance of 1M taps is that I use identical to sinc coefficients to a 16.6 bit accuracy - this means that since it is the same as an ideal sinc function, and it's only a sinc function that will perfectly reconstruct, then we are guaranteed to reconstruct the bandwidth limited analogue signal to a better than 16 bit accuracy, with all signals, under all conditions. So your 16 bit file is now being perfectly reconstructed - at least to better than 16 bits accuracy and to 705.6 kHz (1.3 uS sample period).

Slide15.JPG

I needed to create a new filter architecture in order to do the M scaler - 528 DSP's operating together, with half a million lines of code. This gives you a flavour of the complexity. Fortunately, I can verify exactly that the filter works perfectly, although it took some months to test and de-bug.

Slide16.JPG

Features of the Hugo M scaler. I added the pass through mode so it was easy to be able to hear the difference.

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So just to summarise. This whole concept is actually very very simple in reality:

1. We know that transients are essential from a perception POV.

2. Only an ideal sinc function interpolation filter will reconstruct the bandwidth limited analogue signal perfectly.

3. All other filters will create differences from the original analogue signal.

4. These differences will make transients come a little early or a little late, creating audible problems. The differences in timing depends upon when it was sampled, the past and future signals; so transients are randomly coming backwards or forwards; it's this constant change in the timing of transients that confuses the brain, as it can't process the audio to extract placement, timbre, pitch and tempo information all things that are essential for musicality.

5. Every time I have doubled the tap length and so increased the accuracy to an ideal sinc function by 1 bit I have noticed improved sound quality, as the transients are being more closely reproduced to the original. And the sound quality changes are consistent with what we know about transients and perception.

6. The M scaler is the same as an ideal sinc function filter to better than 16 bits; this means the bandwidth limited signal is reconstructed to a better than 16 bit accuracy.

To me, the M scaler has made a huge difference to sound quality when assessed objectively; much more importantly it has transformed my own enjoyment of music.

Rob
Cool found the info. Referencing it if anyone wants a refresher.
 

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