[llamaluv]

Regarding PGGB, which I've seen mentioned in passing on a couple threads on the forum (including this one)...

I only discovered its existence the other day, and it's exactly the kind of upscaling approach I've always wanted to be able to adopt -- upscaling which is done at the file level, rather than "mid-stream" via a dedicated piece of intermediating hardware.

The more time I've listened to PGGB up-converted files over the last couple days, the more I like it. A lot of the same descriptors and phrases used to describe the M-Scaler immediately come to mind -- more organic/analog, greater dimensionality, more natural-sounding, better bass extension, less harsh and more rounded leading edges, more subtle microdetails, etc. Another word that comes to mind for me is "lush", which is interesting and unexpected, and not an adjective that I'd ever associated with the M-Scaler exactly, just to add as a point of contrast...

Additionally, I find its effects -- all of which I like so far -- to be more easily noticeable than that of the M-Scaler. I've always been a little ashamed to admit that -- as much as I like the M-Scaler -- sometimes I struggle to notice the difference when the fourth glowing ball is red versus white (yes I know, I'm a baaad audiophile).

Also, the better the recording, the more noticeable the results. As a sanity check, I put a dozen pairs of test tracks into a shuffled playlist, and was reliably able to differentiate the original 44khz versions from the upscaled 705k versions in a self-administered "blind" listening test.

Anyway, it's still early days yet, but it's such a cool project that I wanted to post some initial impressions, and this thread seems as appropriate a place as any. Unlike the M-Scaler, which is a relatively problem-free "drop-in" solution (wait, did I just say that?!), fully incorporating PGGB into one's "audio-listening workflow" will require a lot of extra setup and legwork. But so far I find it potentially compelling enough to consider making the necessary adjustments.

 

[jarnopp]

Well, MSB, dCS, NAIM, LINN just to as an example, provide steaming inputs and cards in all their DAC products. Not sure why Chord don’t.

Well, your prior statement was that Chord was lagging in streaming. If that’s true, maybe they also realize that and see that bundling a less than reference streamer with their products would not be beneficial. Would you prefer they do that just to provide a bundled product?

 

[Ciggavelli]

Well, MSB, dCS, NAIM, LINN just to as an example, provide steaming inputs and cards in all their DAC products. Not sure why Chord don’t.

Cynical me would say it’s done to make you buy more Chord schiit.

But, it gives people the option to purchase new components when they want to, or can afford. It lets you pick and choose. Also, a DAVE with a streamer and m-scaler built in would probably cost DCS levels. It’s easier to swallow the price when you split it up a bit.

 

[burbster]

Which bnc and lpsu did you end up buying?

Wave stream cables and mcru psu.

 

[koven]

Regarding PGGB, which I've seen mentioned in passing on a couple threads on the forum (including this one)...

I only discovered its existence the other day, and it's exactly the kind of upscaling approach I've always wanted to be able to adopt -- upscaling which is done at the file level, rather than "mid-stream" via a dedicated piece of intermediating hardware.

The more time I've listened to PGGB up-converted files over the last couple days, the more I like it. A lot of the same descriptors and phrases used to describe the M-Scaler immediately come to mind -- more organic/analog, greater dimensionality, more natural-sounding, better bass extension, less harsh and more rounded leading edges, more subtle microdetails, etc. Another word that comes to mind for me is "lush", which is interesting and unexpected, and not an adjective that I'd ever associated with the M-Scaler exactly, just to add as a point of contrast...

Additionally, I find its effects -- all of which I like so far -- to be more easily noticeable than that of the M-Scaler. I've always been a little ashamed to admit that -- as much as I like the M-Scaler -- sometimes I struggle to notice the difference when the fourth glowing ball is red versus white (yes I know, I'm a baaad audiophile).

Also, the better the recording, the more noticeable the results. As a sanity check, I put a dozen pairs of test tracks into a shuffled playlist, and was reliably able to differentiate the original 44khz versions from the upscaled 705k versions in a self-administered "blind" listening test.

Anyway, it's still early days yet, but it's such a cool project that I wanted to post some initial impressions, and this thread seems as appropriate a place as any. Unlike the M-Scaler, which is a relatively problem-free "drop-in" solution (wait, did I just say that?!), fully incorporating PGGB into one's "audio-listening workflow" will require a lot of extra setup and legwork. But so far I find it potentially compelling enough to consider making the necessary adjustments.

I've also been playing w/ a trial recently and echo your impressions. These PGGB files are not subtle IMO, the effect is recognizable quite immediately. It kind of shocked me to hear such magnitude of refinement. The difference is more readily apparent than any ancillary tweaks I've done such as cables and whatnot. I think this type of offline upsampling is an exciting development in digital audio. It seems to be only the beginning for PGGB so I look forward to any further advancements they make. I'm leaning towards purchasing their license to support the cause (and my ears of course) -- however there are some caveats as you alluded, it doesn't work w/ streaming and file size is huge. I don't mind the latter as much, but Roon does not seem to recognize these 32fs files, not sure about 16fs or lower. That complicates things for me because the main reason I use Roon is to seamlessly blend the local and streaming experience. Throwing PGGB into the mix means a split library/player for PGGB vs streaming which is kind of a logistic hassle. Maybe if popularity/requests increase, Roon will provide compatibility.

 

[muski]

Well, MSB, dCS, NAIM, LINN just to as an example, provide steaming inputs and cards in all their DAC products. Not sure why Chord don’t.

Chord does make streamers: the Poly for the Mojo and the 2Go for the Hugo2. And they've just released the 2Yu which turns the 2Go into a generic streamer that could be used with any DAC.

But building a DAC is a very different engineering problem than building a streamer—which is why Chord outsourced the Poly & 2Go to www.disignconsultants.com. While Chord's DAC & scaling products are world class IMO, their streamers definitely are not. As a piece of hardware, the Poly is fine, but its GoFigure software is clunky and awkward. And the 2Go has been a train wreck since day one—while it sounds great with the Hugo2, many have experienced wifi dropouts and playback pops & clicks.

I really wish Chord would go back to the drawing board and create a streamer worthy of DAVE/M Scaler, but for now I prefer the flexibility of choosing my own.

muski

 

[Karnicopia]

I don’t know that these components really fit together or should even go in the same box these guys do a lot of work keeping noise out of the enclosure and signal so putting a RF transmitter/receiver like a streamer in the same enclosure as your DAC (or amp) causes some significant noise issues that the designer may be able to mitigate but it’s not ideal. I personally would rather be able to electronically isolate and physically separate my streamer from my system and this has led to some of the biggest non component upgrades in my system.

Then I think these technologies just advance at very different rates, streamers are updating very quickly where amps and DAC’s are fairly established and don’t change too much these days. They have upgrade cards and firmware updates in these but say something like WiFi x comes in and really blows the doors off, you have to hope the card structure they built years ago can still support it (or hardware if they depend on Firmware) and that they care to keep up with with the changes in network computing and frankly stay in business to keep up with it.

 

[zenlisten]

Chord does make streamers: the Poly for the Mojo and the 2Go for the Hugo2. And they've just released the 2Yu which turns the 2Go into a generic streamer that could be used with any DAC.

But building a DAC is a very different engineering problem than building a streamer—which is why Chord outsourced the Poly & 2Go to www.disignconsultants.com. While Chord's DAC & scaling products are world class IMO, their streamers definitely are not. As a piece of hardware, the Poly is fine, but its GoFigure software is clunky and awkward. And the 2Go has been a train wreck since day one—while it sounds great with the Hugo2, many have experienced wifi dropouts and playback pops & clicks.

I really wish Chord would go back to the drawing board and create a streamer worthy of DAVE/M Scaler, but for now I prefer the flexibility of choosing my own.

I have a Poly and it seems to be working perfectly as a Roon endpoint. Based on this I would buy 2Yu/2Go for myself if they wouldn't be so expensive.

I don’t know that these components really fit together or should even go in the same box these guys do a lot of work keeping noise out of the enclosure and signal so putting a RF transmitter/receiver like a streamer in the same enclosure as your DAC (or amp) causes some significant noise issues that the designer may be able to mitigate but it’s not ideal. I personally would rather be able to electronically isolate and physically separate my streamer from my system and this has led to some of the biggest non component upgrades in my system.

Then I think these technologies just advance at very different rates, streamers are updating very quickly where amps and DAC’s are fairly established and don’t change too much these days. They have upgrade cards and firmware updates in these but say something like WiFi x comes in and really blows the doors off, you have to hope the card structure they built years ago can still support it (or hardware if they depend on Firmware) and that they care to keep up with with the changes in network computing and frankly stay in business to keep up with it.

Yes for both points! It's so much better keeping these things separate.

 

[teknorob23]

I have a Poly and it seems to be working perfectly as a Roon endpoint. Based on this I would buy 2Yu/2Go for myself if they wouldn't be so expensive.


Yes for both points! It's so much better keeping these things separate.

I bought a 2go when they came out mainly to use as roon endpoint with h2. It worked seamlessly, but sq-wise it wasn’t what you’d expect for the price, with allo usb bridge signature + linear psu offering a more detailed and natural presentation.

 

[Progisus]

I've also been playing w/ a trial recently and echo your impressions. These PGGB files are not subtle IMO, the effect is recognizable quite immediately. It kind of shocked me to hear such magnitude of refinement. The difference is more readily apparent than any ancillary tweaks I've done such as cables and whatnot. I think this type of offline upsampling is an exciting development in digital audio. It seems to be only the beginning for PGGB so I look forward to any further advancements they make. I'm leaning towards purchasing their license to support the cause (and my ears of course) -- however there are some caveats as you alluded, it doesn't work w/ streaming and file size is huge. I don't mind the latter as much, but Roon does not seem to recognize these 32fs files, not sure about 16fs or lower. That complicates things for me because the main reason I use Roon is to seamlessly blend the local and streaming experience. Throwing PGGB into the mix means a split library/player for PGGB vs streaming which is kind of a logistic hassle. Maybe if popularity/requests increase, Roon will provide compatibility.

Roon sees 16fs 32b and lower. I’ve found 24b sounds as good as or better than 32b with my tt2 and h2. Although there are separate players some say sound better than roon, I much prefer the library management of roon. My pggb playback: roon core on nuc with 3tb usb drive attached for pggb > hqplayer, none, none, none 24b to dac.

 

[Christer]

Chord does make streamers: the Poly for the Mojo and the 2Go for the Hugo2. And they've just released the 2Yu which turns the 2Go into a generic streamer that could be used with any DAC.

But building a DAC is a very different engineering problem than building a streamer—which is why Chord outsourced the Poly & 2Go to www.disignconsultants.com. While Chord's DAC & scaling products are world class IMO, their streamers definitely are not. As a piece of hardware, the Poly is fine, but its GoFigure software is clunky and awkward. And the 2Go has been a train wreck since day one—while it sounds great with the Hugo2, many have experienced wifi dropouts and playback pops & clicks.

I really wish Chord would go back to the drawing board and create a streamer worthy of DAVE/M Scaler, but for now I prefer the flexibility of choosing my own.

muski

Hmm, if by streamer you are referring to a dedicated" Music-player" option to use directly with a Chord dac then I would be VERY interested if it was fully functional
ON ITS OWN without the need for an iPhone !!!! or laptop and capable of playing ALL bit rates and sample rates currently available AND upgradeable to what could well be the next levels in bits and rates even beyond 32/768.

The need to be connected to the internet to listen to music or having an iPhone to do the job any capable DAP does seems like a clumpsy and NOT very smart option to me.

There are MANY DAPS with a screen and playlist menue that can play stored files from either internal drives or mini SSD card.
But nothing from Chord that seems to come even close to those.
Cheers CC

 

[griff500]

 

[genefruit]

Curious if anyone has split the dual BNC output of the Mscaler to feed two dacs, such as a TT2 and a DAVE, at the same time. If you have, how did you go about setting it up and what were your results?

 

[DJJEZ]

Curious if anyone has split the dual BNC output of the Mscaler to feed two dacs, such as a TT2 and a DAVE, at the same time. If you have, how did you go about setting it up and what were your results?

I'm more interested in why you want both the TT2 and dave together?

 

[teknorob23]

very exciting to see a certain little black box in such exalted company …