[dmance]

@llamaluv
Regarding dither=none. I 'think' Jussi's comments here refer to 16-bits output..which any system can resolve the difference between dither on/off. I know when i run the output of my TT2 to an amplifier to my voxativs

Jussi definitely says dither is required to prevent distortion. I am going to try the NS9. In my opinion HQPlayer sounds imperceptible to my mscaler.

For sure dither is needed at 16-bit outputs (to 16-bit DACs). The excellent Archimago review of HQP (here) performs noise shaping tests on 24->16 bit conversion and dither on/off/option is clearly audible. However, there is a note in the review that 24-bit DACs don't need dither since it is under the ~20-bit analog noise floor. Yet ... NS9 does round out the sibilance and harshness when I use it with HQP to my 24-bit TT2 direct to my Voxativs. So, yes, as you say, we probably always should dither.

 

[Triode User]

Isn’t there an HQPlayer thread to take this conversation?

 

[JM1979]

A LOT BETTER. It is not subtle.

I completely believe you, yet this is also so mind blowing. The MsTT2 sounds sooooo good. I’ve heard a Dave on its own before but never with the MScaler.

why do I feel like a Dave and amp might be in my 2020 things I don’t need to buy but do anyway list.

 

[Progisus]

Isn’t there an HQPlayer thread to take this conversation?

Great fear I sense in you..
Strong in you the rfi is

 

[Tom Blake]

Don't know if you are all aware of the NuPrime CDT-8 Pro CD transport. This unit looks like it was made to partner with the HMS. It is the exact same width and a little shallower to make for a perfect stacking partner. I have gotten out of my Chord gear so no longer need this transport. Thought I would offer it here if anyone is interested. Mine is black finish. PM if interested. Details here...

https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/cdt-8-pro/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

[JM1979]

Great fear I sense in you..
Strong in you the rfi is

HQplayer is not the upscaler you’re looking for.

move along.

 

[muski]

So I guess E.L.P. was not in your horizon as a band? I used to really like their records and of course they did Pictures.

I wasn’t aware of it, but many thanks for this tip! And I read the history of the recording on Wikipedia. Made in the Newcastle town hall in 1971. Very cool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_at_an_Exhibition_(Emerson,_Lake_&_Palmer_album)

Cheers,
muski

 

[Progisus]

HQplayer is not the upscaler you’re looking for.

move along.

Your head-fi mind tricks will not work on me.
Open ear keep will I.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I just realized I had my old Moon Audio Hugo 2 to M-scaler cable still laying around.

https://www.moon-audio.com/black-mini-coax-hugo-2-hugo-m-scaler.html

I have the 3ft version. I no longer have a Hugo 2, so I have no use for this.

If anybody needs this cable, please private message me. I will give a significant discount


Edit: Also, if this is not allowed on the forum, I will delete the post. I'm still new to this forum, so please forgive me

 

[STR-1]

Edit to say that I measured the Poweradd Pilot Pro 2 16v output as being 16.8v and you should never ever connect this voltage to the Mscaler. The 12v output from the battery should be used (which I measured at 12.5v).

A Christmas present to myself was my first ever multimeter, and its first tryout was measuring the voltage output of my three Pilot Pro 2 packs and the Pilot Pro 5 I bought most recently.

I can confirm the over-voltage output of the PP2s first mentioned by @Triode User and repeat his warning not to use at 16V with the M Scaler. The readings at 16V for the three PP2s ranged from 16.57V-16.75V. The PP5 was much better regulated at 16.06V, but you should still not use with M Scaler. In percentage terms, the PP2s were similarly over-delivering at the other voltage settings, while the PP5 stayed almost bang on the mark throughout (9.05V/12.05V/16.06V/20.07V - PP5 does not do 19V).

For those looking for a battery pack to give themselves some mobility with the M Scaler, the PP5 would seem to be the better buy. For not much more money you get about 50% more hours than the PP2 (9.5 compared to 6.5) and, based on the one unit I have, more accurate regulation. It’s not available in the UK but can be bought from the German Amazon site - https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07WKLT87H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1. It doesn't come with a UK plug, but the PP2 charger works just fine if you already have that. I couldn’t reliably tell much difference in sound quality between the two when used with the M Scaler at 12V.

 

[Drewligarchy]

Since 2019 is the year of RFI, let's have some further conversation since it's almost 2020.

I think @Rob Watts previous post was very illuminating when he said the primary issues is a ground loop that runs from M Scaler FPGA > ground plane of DAC > to Power Supply of DAC > to Power Supply of M-Scaler > to M Scaler FPGA.. I believe he said the frequency at issue was 2.5 Ghz.

Then he mentioned you could break the ground loop in a few places. The BNCs. The Power Supply (by using battery and taking it off the mains).

My question is - is this the only significant frequency of noise that causes intermodulation distortion?

@dmance - I hope you don't mind me posting this but I found quite interesting. Noise spectrums for various outputs:

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/blogs/news/measuring-rf-energy

Clearly showing (whether it's audible or not) that M Scaler has noise in the 100hz to 1k frequency spectrum (versus a cd player coax output for instance). It actually looks like 2ghz+ is well sorted, which makes sense given the RFI mitigation techniques Rob implemented with the M Scalers. But what about the other noise?

The reason for asking is I am experiencing fatigue again. Trust me - I would love to just listen to the music. I think the Dave - M Scaler sounds great, but it's been an effort to get rid of any remaining elements of glare.

I have switched sources. I am now running bit perfect toslink as opposed to toslink our of my aries mini (which was not bit perfect). The aries mini was- in some way - degrading the signal. While AB'ing it's less resolving. I would normally attribute this to RF - but I think it's a bitperfect vs non bitperfect source. I have tried the 15rt toslink test and differences remain.

Any help is appreciated.

I would also add - that I think any RFI issues or more pronounced on Dave because it's more resolving and further updates were made to ground plane / BNCs of TT2 I believe. Also I'm listening on headphones. With drivers right next to my ears - clearly RFI sensitivity is increased.

 

[dmance]

@Drewligarchy
Somewhat related ... I have a particular aversion to fragrant flowers. So I can hardly tolerate it when a fresh bouquet happens to be in the house.
It's all I can smell anywhere I'm closeby and I know instantly when they have been finally thrown out.
I'm not saying to chuck out your digital stack but I think the degree of RFI remedy you need has to fully ameliorate your extreme sensitivity.

 

[audio_1]

Since 2019 is the year of RFI, let's have some further conversation since it's almost 2020.

I think @Rob Watts previous post was very illuminating when he said the primary issues is a ground loop that runs from M Scaler FPGA > ground plane of DAC > to Power Supply of DAC > to Power Supply of M-Scaler > to M Scaler FPGA.. I believe he said the frequency at issue was 2.5 Ghz.

Then he mentioned you could break the ground loop in a few places. The BNCs. The Power Supply (by using battery and taking it off the mains).

My question is - is this the only significant frequency of noise that causes intermodulation distortion?

@dmance - I hope you don't mind me posting this but I found quite interesting. Noise spectrums for various outputs:

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/blogs/news/measuring-rf-energy

Clearly showing (whether it's audible or not) that M Scaler has noise in the 100hz to 1k frequency spectrum (versus a cd player coax output for instance). It actually looks like 2ghz+ is well sorted, which makes sense given the RFI mitigation techniques Rob implemented with the M Scalers. But what about the other noise?

The reason for asking is I am experiencing fatigue again. Trust me - I would love to just listen to the music. I think the Dave - M Scaler sounds great, but it's been an effort to get rid of any remaining elements of glare.

I have switched sources. I am now running bit perfect toslink as opposed to toslink our of my aries mini (which was not bit perfect). The aries mini was- in some way - degrading the signal. While AB'ing it's less resolving. I would normally attribute this to RF - but I think it's a bitperfect vs non bitperfect source. I have tried the 15rt toslink test and differences remain.

Any help is appreciated.

I would also add - that I think any RFI issues or more pronounced on Dave because it's more resolving and further updates were made to ground plane / BNCs of TT2 I believe. Also I'm listening on headphones. With drivers right next to my ears - clearly RFI sensitivity is increa

Imho the best way to eliminate the RFI issue completely is the Opto-DX. My Dave and Blu2 are almost too smooth, absolutely no fatigue at all.

 

[Triode User]

Since 2019 is the year of RFI, let's have some further conversation since it's almost 2020.

I think @Rob Watts previous post was very illuminating when he said the primary issues is a ground loop that runs from M Scaler FPGA > ground plane of DAC > to Power Supply of DAC > to Power Supply of M-Scaler > to M Scaler FPGA.. I believe he said the frequency at issue was 2.5 Ghz.

Then he mentioned you could break the ground loop in a few places. The BNCs. The Power Supply (by using battery and taking it off the mains).

My question is - is this the only significant frequency of noise that causes intermodulation distortion?

@dmance - I hope you don't mind me posting this but I found quite interesting. Noise spectrums for various outputs:

https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/blogs/news/measuring-rf-energy

Clearly showing (whether it's audible or not) that M Scaler has noise in the 100hz to 1k frequency spectrum (versus a cd player coax output for instance). It actually looks like 2ghz+ is well sorted, which makes sense given the RFI mitigation techniques Rob implemented with the M Scalers. But what about the other noise?

The reason for asking is I am experiencing fatigue again. Trust me - I would love to just listen to the music. I think the Dave - M Scaler sounds great, but it's been an effort to get rid of any remaining elements of glare.

I have switched sources. I am now running bit perfect toslink as opposed to toslink our of my aries mini (which was not bit perfect). The aries mini was- in some way - degrading the signal. While AB'ing it's less resolving. I would normally attribute this to RF - but I think it's a bitperfect vs non bitperfect source. I have tried the 15rt toslink test and differences remain.

Any help is appreciated.

I would also add - that I think any RFI issues or more pronounced on Dave because it's more resolving and further updates were made to ground plane / BNCs of TT2 I believe. Also I'm listening on headphones. With drivers right next to my ears - clearly RFI sensitivity is increased.

I am sat here now listening to my Blu2 which is 18inches above my Innuos Zenith SE (connected by USB and not optical). The Dave is 18ins or maybe 2ft away from the Blu2. The pictures show how close it all is. The silver boxes near to the speakers are the power amps. (Ignore the silver box on top of the Innous to the left under the table. It is a Passive preamp which is only used for the tube amp next to it. The silver box to the right of the tube amp is a power supply for the tube amp. All the three tube amp components are disconnected at the moment).

I do not have any headphones but my speaker system is very transparent and has served me well in identifying and removing RF noise.

I can honestly say that there is not a hint of fatigue (and I am very sensitive to it). The music is just pure joy with subtle detail and not a hint of glare. And this is with a Blu2 which does not have the additional isolation and filtering that is incorporated in the Mscaler.

So, maybe we need to look at why you get fatigue and I do not. The easiest thing is for me to pop over and see you and have a listen to your system but short of that we can only do it by remote diagnosis.

Have you got any other powered kit of any sort anywhere near your system? Where is the SWPS power supply located for the Aries mini? Is it on the same circuit as the Dave? Do you have a hard drive in the Aries Mini or do you have a disk server elsewhere? Do you have LED lights or similar?

Where is the cable routed between the power supply and the mscaler (the thin DC one)? Does this stay well clear of anything else, especially other cables?

Lastly, are you the sort of person who reads medicine labels to see what possible side effects there are before you take the medicine? My father always read every part of all the labels and 95% of time he got one or more of the stated side effects. Cognitive bias is very powerful.

I will pop you a PM so we can bat this back and forth . . . .

Edit. A few people have contacted me about this issue of proximity of the components and I am more inclined to think that it is less the dac that is vulnerable to stray rf (it is after all in an earthed metal box) but perhaps more the bnc cables going into the dac acting as aerials. So I have just done some measurements with my spectrum analyser and the bnc cables can act this way, some much worse than others. Indeed some were themselves leaking RF and acting as transmitting aerials before any optical separation (again some much worse than others) only for this to be picked up by the final Bnc cables going into the dac. Full length ferrites serve a purpose in this case.

Just to answer another question raised, my Blu2 has a Supra 2.0 usb cable and the Blu2 power cable is just a home made Belden 2.5mm screened cable with the screen earthed at the Blu2 end only because it is easier to do that than to try to do it at the 13a plug end.

 

[mlxx]

A new interview from Rob Watts in four parts, check it out...