Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread

[Drewligarchy]

Xduoo x10t is not a streamer but does dop via it's optical out as it supports 192khz via optical. The output is as clean as it can get.

Interesting. May be worthwhile to use as a battery operated reference. From a convenience and functionality standpoint, I'd like to use something that can stream and ideally connect, with Roon, and be able to run off mains.

 

[Drewligarchy]

@Drewligarchy
Drew,
Chord DACs are 100% immune to jitter.
What you are not considering in your analysis is how the DAVE is acting as an antenna and picks up all the radiated RF noise you are surrounding it with. All those gadgets may seem innocent placed neatly on your audio rack but they send up a flood of radiated digital RF that shows up on the output of the DAVE (or Hugo2, TT2, etc.). Its easy to measure (i do this every day) and then readily establish the corollary that the magical transparency you crave varies as you alter the level of impinging RF.
Try this convincing experiment: get the longest Toslink cable you can find that still works for you - 15' or 20' perhaps. Then exclude the MScaler from your chain (for this test) and physically separate your source chain of components from your DAVE by the max distance and do your best to isolate the power paths. Toslink eliminates the conducted RF path to your DAVE and the greater distance diminishes the radiated RF effect. You will notice that the benefits/changes of your tweaks are greatly lessened ...in fact, if it was possible to have a 100' Toslink cable and the room for separation, you would find that your source chain does not matter at all.
Dan

I thought this as a possibility, Dan. I had an Orbi access point I replaced with a powerful router downstairs for exactly this reason. To compare Apples and Apples, the biggest difference between the Mini setup and the current setup is USB to SPDIF next to M Scaler - and what could potentially account for the difference - the Aries Femto, operating via wifi, about a foot closer to my M Scaler than the mini.

Both are connected via wifi - which is obviously a 2 way transmission and if I'm using MU Mimo it's focusing the beam (I think?). Perhaps the big Aries has stronger antennas?

Anyhow, I have a 10ft KabelDirekt toslink, which surprisingly, works at 192khz with my PC optical output! I'll give it a try.

Last point - is it really 100% immune? I remember Rob mentioning with Galvanic Isolation the USB was now slightly better than optical due to timing (very slightly). He then changed his mind and confirmed Toslink was the reference because USB can't be completely isolated and the RFI from USB, even while galvanically isolate, had a greater impact then any differences between asynchronous USB and toslink.

Still, I would like to use Toslink - and I would like a bit perfect source. The Gustard U12 hasn't proved super reliable in the past - so if the Matrix can do that for me - it will be worth it vs the Aries Mini that I've confirmed does not output bit perfect audio via Spdi (it does via USB).

 

[dmance]

I thought this as a possibility, Dan. I had an Orbi access point I replaced with a powerful router downstairs for exactly this reason. To compare Apples and Apples, the biggest difference between the Mini setup and the current setup is USB to SPDIF next to M Scaler - and what could potentially account for the difference - the Aries Femto, operating via wifi, about a foot closer to my M Scaler than the mini.

Both are connected via wifi - which is obviously a 2 way transmission and if I'm using MU Mimo it's focusing the beam (I think?). Perhaps the big Aries has stronger antennas?

Anyhow, I have a 10ft KabelDirekt toslink, which surprisingly, works at 192khz with my PC optical output! I'll give it a try.

Last point - is it really 100% immune? I remember Rob mentioning with Galvanic Isolation the USB was now slightly better than optical due to timing (very slightly). He then changed his mind and confirmed Toslink was the reference because USB can't be completely isolated and the RFI from USB, even while galvanically isolate, had a greater impact then any differences between asynchronous USB and toslink.

Still, I would like to use Toslink - and I would like a bit perfect source. The Gustard U12 hasn't proved super reliable in the past - so if the Matrix can do that for me - it will be worth it vs the Aries Mini that I've confirmed does not output bit perfect audio via Spdi (it does via USB).

Rob reclocks every input on MScaler and his DACs. His reclocker is not a 1980's style circuit with limited buffering and zero smarts - its a robust engine he's coded in his FPGA with lots of buffering and smarts to accommodate even the most absurdly jittery input. So imagine MScaler doing this level of reclocking on the Toslink input...and then with your 1 meter DBNC link ...your DAVE doing the exact same level of reclocking. What is this? 100% x 100% zero jitter? At some point you have to cave into reality and realize any audible artifacts are being otherwise manifest.

 

[kelly200269]

First - happy holidays all!

I've been using the holiday to further refine my front end, because I just can't keep well enough alone. A few posts back I had spoken a buying a new streamer / server - but decided to hold back - mainly because no matter what I try, I get the best result from Toslink. (I am currently running MScaler > DAVE with WAVE BNC Cables.)

It's really strange about Toslink. Everyone hates it except those who have Chord (and potentially PS Audio) DACs - because they have good jitter rejection. I assume most modern Dacs have good jitter rejection (I have no idea if it's as good as chord, although consistently toslink sounds the best for me now).

With the added resolution from M Scaler, I feel that it's even more important to mitigate RFI interference. Toslink does that best. I'd like to hear USB outputs from an Auralic Aries G2, a Lumin U1, or a Innuous Zenith MkIII to see if they've minimized EMI/RFI so that it's not discernible. I know Innuous says the Toslink receiver generates more noise - but the USB receiver is still a more complex protocol so that has to generate noise as well, no?

Anyhow - what I've decided to do before making a huge investment is a server is to get the absolute best Toslink output I possible can - and see if I can discern any difference.

I have an Auralic Aries Femto and Auralic Aries Mini. I had been using the Mini's toslink, because my particular Femto can't get to 192khz over toslink. The Mini toslink sounds great. But it can't do DOP. This isn't a huge deal in and of itself. I convert DSD to PCM in Roon, and away we go.

But what bothered me is why it can't do DOP. Did Auralic block DOP on the mini, or is it something else. It's something else. The Auralic Aries Mini doesn't send out bit perfect data via SPDIF. I confirmed this by encapsulating a dsd album in PCM with DB Poweramp and attempting to play it back in Roon. This, admittedly, pissed me off. I have all processing off in Lightning DS (the Aries control app), and no DSP in Roon. Yes, it's not the end of the world to not output bit perfect data. But I want to control that - and I want to be able to know if my music is going to my DAC bit perfect or not. I believe this is the case with Aries streamers that have a built in DAC (altair, altair g1) - because it's applying some type of filter to the digital outputs before it gets to the DAC (likely the same filter it applies to it's internal DAC, as it's on at the same time). There is no issue running DOP with the Auralic Aries Femto (via Coax at least, because the optical can't get to 192)

So this led to a rabid search for a Toslink that can run bit perfect at 192khz. In terms of USB to SPDIF converters I currently have a Gustard U12 lying around and a BelCanto Reflink. The Bel Canto Reflink is older, but doesn't have toslink out. It has ST Fiber out, AES, and BNC. BNC works to 192, does DOP - and sounds good - but not as good as Toslink. It also seems like the gain is significantly reduced vs my other sources. Not sure why this is. Interestingly, the Lifatec website has a cable with an ST Fiber connector on one end, and toslink on the other. They say that ST Fiber and Toslink were never intended to work together - but sometime they do! I also read that some people have take an ST Fiber cable and stuck it in a toslink input - and it worked! I ordered a cheap ST fiber cable just to test if M Scaler can lock onto anything. If it does, maybe I'll buy that Lifatec cable.

So last night I listened to Aries Femto USB > Gustard U12 Optical > M Scaler. It had the same warmth / tone of Toslink, but sounded ever so slightly different. One of my favorite albums is Morph the Cat by Donald Fagen - which I know backwards and forwards. I noticed two main differences - mainly in regards to detail. First, I noticed some horn trills that I hadn't previously noticed. I can't imagine missing them before. Secondly, the vocals seems clearer, but not sharper. All of these were quite small differences so could be placebo - or could be because I was sending a bit perfect signal via toslink for the first time!

Next I listened to Beethoven Around the World: Vienna - Op.59 Nos. 1&2. It's a great recording. When listening this time through this chain, it actually sounded worse in some ways. The cellos at the beginning, previously, really had a 3 dimensional characteristic which was flattened somewhat. The violins sounded "wetter" - which is the best way to describe it - because they sounded drier previously.

I have noticed this wetter sound I've typically associated with more RFI, but I don't know how it could be getting in. From a mains standpoint, I moved power supplies for the Aries and Gustard to a different circuit anyway, as they are completely isolated from the M Scaler > Dac > Amp - since their only connection is Toslink.

I don't frequent Audio Science Review frequently, but the Gustard is supposed to be a bit jittery via coax, so I can only imagine toslink is a bit worse. Could it be that there is less jitter on my aries mini, and this overshadows it's outputting a signal that's not bit perfect?

So I've decided to up my toslink game to see if jitter can play any role. I just ordered a Matrix X SPDIF 2. This seems to be the current USB to SPDIF hotness. Raved about on CA, even ASR says it measures great. Most importantly @ray-dude uses it and likes it. If I run Aries Femto USB > X SPDIF 2 - will this give me a great toslink output? Supposed to receive tomorrow so I'll find out.

I know that Chord Dacs are supposed to be 99% immune to jitter - but maybe that 1% is making a difference - or maybe I am just a crazy audiophile. Nonetheless, I'd like to get an output that sounds as good as my Aries Mini toslink, that is bit perfect - so I think it's a worthwhile exercise.

Do you actually enjoy listening to music? Or do you just ‘listen’ to equipment instead?

 

[Drewligarchy]

Do you actually enjoy listening to music? Or do you just ‘listen’ to equipment instead?

Merry Christmas!

 

[musickid]

the matrix is a source of RF in itself. why not a chromecast audio powered by a ifi ipower 5v. i do this with great results as also confirmed by audio science review. easy on the wallet too. sounds better than my imac optical out with a very small RF footprint.

 

[Clive101]

Season Greetings to All.

Please help

Has anyone noticed soundstage difference with Highres stream Qobuz with their Dave Mscaler setup?

My set up is Server to Mscaler to Dave to Amps to speakers.

The speakers are placed correctly as I have a similar sound stage which matches a dealer’s system give or take, same ball park.

What I have noticed is that RB CDs, streamed or ripped from CD same version have the same sound stage, middle, left and right but as soon as I stream highres 24/192 I have mostly left and right with very little centre. I have only tried a one album which is https://play.qobuz.com/album/0060253764832 if you try the different versions CD and 24/192 do you hear a difference?

Midnight Blue (2012 Remaster) by Kenny Burrell

Has anyone else noticed the difference and any ideas why this should happen?

 

[Foxman50]

I have 5 versions of this album and all the high res versions suffer from this to varying degrees, at least on the first few tracks

 

[iamoneagain]

Season Greetings to All.

Please help

Has anyone noticed soundstage difference with Highres stream Qobuz with their Dave Mscaler setup?

My set up is Server to Mscaler to Dave to Amps to speakers.

The speakers are placed correctly as I have a similar sound stage which matches a dealer’s system give or take, same ball park.

What I have noticed is that RB CDs, streamed or ripped from CD same version have the same sound stage, middle, left and right but as soon as I stream highres 24/192 I have mostly left and right with very little centre. I have only tried a one album which is https://play.qobuz.com/album/0060253764832 if you try the different versions CD and 24/192 do you hear a difference?

Midnight Blue (2012 Remaster) by Kenny Burrell

Has anyone else noticed the difference and any ideas why this should happen?

For that album try the 16/44 version. It’s has a completely different mix. The 24/96 and 24/192 versions have everything planned to left and right. Don’t think this is Qobuz’s fault.

Also if you have roon you can easily see all the versions available. Then can test this on other Qobuz albums. Normally the hires mix sounds almost the same as the 16/44 just with improved soundstage and improved range.

 

[Triode User]

For that album try the 16/44 version. It’s has a completely different mix. The 24/96 and 24/192 versions have everything planned to left and right. Don’t think this is Qobuz’s fault.

Also if you have roon you can easily see all the versions available. Then can test this on other Qobuz albums. Normally the hires mix sounds almost the same as the 16/44 just with improved soundstage and improved range.

I’m just listening to the hi res version now. (Track 2) The double bass is just right of centre on my system. Guitar full left and drums full right. Ah, sax just come in full right as well.

edit. Now listening to the cd version (Qobuz) and the guitar is about 2/3 across to left. Drums and sax about 2/3 across to right. Double bass just right of centre.

And now listening to the Bluenote remaster. It still has the spread across the sound stage but the instruments have been given a better balance of volume, especially the double bass. This is my preferred version I think.

 

[Drewligarchy]

the matrix is a source of RF in itself. why not a chromecast audio powered by a ifi ipower 5v. i do this with great results as also confirmed by audio science review. easy on the wallet too. sounds better than my imac optical out with a very small RF footprint.

From an RF perspective, I think it's gotta be incredibly minimal. I received it this morning and it's enclosed in a think aluminum housing - like Dave level thick. It can also be powered via the USB bus which I am doing with my Auralic Aries - with no further USB cleaners in between.

Operation is plug and play and flawless. I listened to a couple of albums and initial impressions are very positive - this is the best toslink source I have. Now clearly differences are minimal because of M Scaler / Dave's jitter rejection - but still I can hear a difference: it's smoother than either my Aries or Aries Mini and it passed the DoP test so is bit perfect. Moon Audio sells it with a pretty decent return policy, and you could potentially run it off your Mac and see if you like it better. If you check out the thread for this device, there are a couple used ones available as people predominantly use it for I2S and have moved on to different DACs or servers. I know it's crazy to claim differences in optical ports due to the jitter rejection of the DAC's but it was immediately noticeable to me. It's not night and day but it's there.

Question for Rob or others:

Because M Scaler converts DSD to PCM internally, is it better to send DSD or to convert to PCM prior? I haven't listened enough to make a judgement. As I'm using toslink I max out at DSD 64 over DOP, and for my DSD 128 albums, Roon apparently can modulate down to DSD 64 without converting to PCM first. Part of me feels like this is silly - should I just convert to PCM beforehand (for both DSD 64 and 128 in Roon)? I only have a couple DXD albums and downsample to 176 or 192 depending on the native sample rate.

 

[Drewligarchy]

Interesting post by Charlie Hansen in my random googling in regards to Toslink and specifically Chord's immunity. Maybe I am crazy:

Optical out (TosLink) provides great isolation from the RFI of the computer. (You will still want to put a power line filter on the computer to keep the RFI from its switching power supply out of the rest of your system.)

The problem with TosLink is that it is S/PDIF, which inherently adds jitter. The faster the rise time of the data link, the less jitter gets added. TosLink is pretty slow and the rise times are slow enough that it can barely handle the data rates for S/PDIF. So there is more jitter added than with a coaxial cable. Therefore TosLink is better than coax in one way and worse in another.

The end result will depend on how well your external DAC rejects jitter. Unfortunately there is no such thing as an S/PDIF DAC that completely rejects jitter, except for the Chord. It has a big buffer and it takes 4 seconds after you hit play before you hear music.

Charles Hansen

 

[dmance]

@Drewligarchy
Hey did you ever do the 20' toslink cable test? My bet is the matrix SPDIf box becomes irrelevant at that distance.
Dan

 

[Drewligarchy]

@Drewligarchy
Hey did you ever do the 20' toslink cable test? My bet is the matrix SPDIf box becomes irrelevant at that distance.
Dan

Not yet! I ordered a 15ft toslink specifically to try it though.

 

[ray-dude]

Not yet! I ordered a 15ft toslink specifically to try it though.

fwiw, at 10’ the XSPDIF had the same impact for me as it did right next to my DAVE. I did not test at any longer distance (yet)