HQPlayer Impressions and Settings Rolling Thread
Apr 26, 2024 at 8:13 PM Post #1,186 of 1,365
HqPlayer and DSD vs PCM definitely have an audible effect, even on ESS dacs
tho i think what he trys to say is that HqPlayer has even more of an effect on NOS dacs... since the filter inside HqPlayer is basicly the only one you apply to the signal

tho just because he hears greater differences in filters with NOS dacs doesnt mean NOS dacs are the non plus ultra... but thats just my thinking
 
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Apr 26, 2024 at 10:02 PM Post #1,187 of 1,365
What does the new DAC correction feature actually correct? Can you elaborate on that @jlaako? Is it just making sure it's outputting optimal sample rates for the DAC, is it modifying filtering, modulation, changing DAC bits value to be optimal, or what? There's no good explanation for what it's doing. This page just has a table of DACs and their supported sample rates.

What is it doing for my Spring 3 when I select it?
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 2:26 AM Post #1,188 of 1,365
I hear benefits from HQPlayer with my ESS DAC - so much so that I recently upgraded to HQPlayer 5. If it was a waste for me to spend that money then I want to hear why so I can take that into account next time I need to pay an upgrade free. I can’t see why this wouldn’t be the thread to ask these questions.

IME HQPlayer is helpful also with ESS DACs when you feed them by DSD signal from HQPLayer. On chip modulator is still in action in that case and adds its own sheen into analog output, but differences between HQPlayer filters and modulators may be still easily observable.

ESS chips leave much ultrasonic content at their analog output and therefore they require additional filtering in analog section behing DAC chip. Quality of that analog section matters and that's one of the reasons why one can get different sound out of DACs based on the same DAC chip. To help with filtering of unwanted ultrasonic content, 5th order HQPlayer modulators with earlier roll-off are recommended over 7th order ones.

What I don't recommend is to feed ESS chip based DACs with PCM signal from HQPlayer. Then the on chip 2nd oversampling stage also appears in path and I perceive it as an additional distortion against the DSD case.

I recommend you to borrow or buy & return more DACs and compare your current one with few direct DSD capable ones. That personal experience would bring you better answers than forum discussions. Cyan 2, VMV D2R or Gustard A26 (with firmware update for direct DSD) are my tips for you.
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 3:28 AM Post #1,189 of 1,365
Ok gents. Enough of these non sense arguments.

So I met up with a local diy enthusiast selling his dsc2 dac this evening. He was very generous to let me in and auditioned the dac and he told me he recently upgraded the phono stage in this vinyl setup and hence don’t listen to digital as much, hence the sale.

He offered to demoed his tt vs the dac just for the fun of a comparison on some Korean love song album, (i am not Korean not sure why he demoed some Korean song). He put in the LP and music played and I told him I thought it sounded pretty good, bass was a bit soft, mids and highs were silky smooth and very laid back and relaxed… then after a minute or so, he was like “oops, sorry i forgot to change the input on my preamp that was the dac playing”

He turned the input to his tt, Holy mackerel, the dac actually sounded more like vinyl than the guy's vinyl rig!! Certainly the bass was not as tight and clean as his tt.

I am now home listening to the Green Day Saviors album, it’s like listening to Green Day in LP… dsd512x48, 7EC super 512fs, xtr short mp

Certainly was not what I expected and my ears are still trying to adjust to the new sound. i guess it’s a nice addition to my dac collection, a very unique sounding dac…

Swapped back to the Cyan 2 and played the same Green Day album - what a world of difference!!! it’s like a perfect demonstration of a comparison between digital and analog!!! Very interesting indeed!!!

View attachment IMG_9218.jpeg
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 10:45 AM Post #1,190 of 1,365
Yes, that is pretty unused overall, so it was good choice for the purpose.



Some may be, but many of those are just bugs in AK4191. Or poor documentation from their side (which at least seems to be the case). Now it is just like ESS chips, which have always been like that.



Yeah, partially due to implementation. But I don't think there is technical reason why this new chipset would be any better than AK4490 or AK4493... Not at least until they figure out all the things they've figured out for SCF practical implementation over the past decades. Cirrus Logic is another SCF based DAC chip vendor. While TI/BB and ESS are resistor based. But I wouldn't say that either one is clearly better than the other.



Unfortunately mine got bricked on a firmware update. I shouldn't have attempted that... :rolling_eyes: I can reflash it all day long, but it doesn't wake up anymore.
INDEED! The firmware on the D300 has been a bit of a mess. I kept mine to version 1.0, and use ASIO (no DoP for DSD). It works perfectly. It seems the update to 1.1, which enabled DoP, could make a mess of things.
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 11:49 AM Post #1,191 of 1,365
Thanks, @bogi , for your input.

Considering the moderator's comments in the A26 thread, it seems more fitting to discuss ESS DACs' conversion methodology here in the HQP thread, especially since many utilize HQPlayer to upsample with ESS DACs. @jlaako , please let me know if you think this isn't the right place for this conversation or if you have any corrections regarding our discussion. I'm eager to delve deeper into the workings of ESS DACs with upsampled PCM signals and would appreciate your insights.

Regarding the conversion elements, your points are well-taken. Given that discussion, here's an updated summary of my understanding of how ESS DACs process PCM inputs. @bogi could you highlight any discrepancies?

Big Picture: ESS DACs convert PCM signals into a multi-level bitstream, not directly into DSD. This type of bitstream modulation outputs more than 1-bit per sample and is distinctly different from traditional DSD, which strictly uses a 1-bit format.

Intermediate Format: ESS DACs use advanced Delta-Sigma modulation to convert PCM to a multi-level signal, rather than a simple multi-bit or 1-bit output:

  • Higher Order Modulation: The modulator in ESS DACs is capable of generating a signal with more levels than the typical 1-bit used in traditional DSD, avoiding simple multi-bit digital signal conversion.
  • Multi-Bit Quantization: Unlike simple R-2R DACs, ESS DACs produce a high-frequency PWM signal with multiple levels, offering a more sophisticated output than standard multi-bit or 1-bit DACs.
  • Noise Shaping and Filtering: The multi-level output enables more efficient noise shaping and filtering, pushing noise out of the audible spectrum and significantly lowering distortion while enhancing dynamic range.
DAC Architecture: ESS uses proprietary technology combining their advanced modulator with a current steering DAC design, which differs significantly from a basic "six-bit ladder" approach. This system manages the digital-to-analog conversion with high precision and linearity.

Additionally, could you clarify your reference to the DSC1 in relation to ESS's PCM to DSD conversion process? I'm unsure how it applies here.
Obviously I cannot answer with the expertise of Jussi or Bogi.

However, I have studied chip conversion for over a decade as a dedicated amateur. I have learned so much; enough to be dangerous and understand how little I actually know. That said, I think I have a fair understanding of how the ESS operates in spite of how tight-lipped ESS has been.

Everything you states seems to be right on. I didn't read it in depth, but what I did see, looks correct.

I am going to stick with DSD in; DSD out conversion to keep it simple.

ESS again has been tight-lipped on their method of DSD conversion,
but I DID happen to find a diagram from one of their datasheets that answers a LOT of questions.

This confirms that what you may have heard explained over the years by some really high-end, well respected engineers is not really correct, or at least they were obfuscating. The truth seems to be that the DSD path is not that different from what we have come to know about things like Sony's DSD-Wide, or how Cirrus, AKM and others covert DSD with DSP/Volume Control.

The Digital Signal Path below shows what I have suspected all along. DSD hits a FIR low pass filter, which creates a multi-bit signal. The signal is not 'decimated', and remains at the same rate as DSD input. (Decimation can mean more than one thing to me; in this case I say not decimated because no samples are removed, even if there is some redundancy.) The filter output can be just a few bits wide, but IF the volume control is used to attenuate, the output of the FIR filter is multiplied by a 32bit gain control, creating an even wider sample. Due to bandwidth restraints, we are probably not in a DSD unary code; we will be in binary.

Next up DSD multibit intermediate is sent to the IIR filter that is user selectable at either 47khz, 50khz, 60khz, 70khz for further noise control before it is sent to the Delta-Sigma modulator. ( Not shown in diagram is the sample rate converter for jitter reduction, but this is likely before modulator as well, although I could be incorrect here).

The modulator works as a multi-bit DSM. Considering the DAC itself has 64 unary/thermometer elements per channel, the modulator probably operates at 6 bits (binary).

The 6 bit binary output of the Delta Sigma modulator at whatever oversampled speed is used (x128 or x256) is send to a logic system that converts the 6 bit binary into a 64 level UNARY code. ( note, that in unary code, 64 elements would actually mean 65 levels because all elements 'off' is zero. Likewise, 63 elements would be required for 64 (6-bit) levels) Furthermore, ESS uses here what they call the 'revolver' technique. (similar to DCS 'Ring' DAC). Levels are 'scrambled' since unary code is essentially multiple 1-bit signals that when added together equals the correct amplitude. It doesn't matter which element the logic 'shoot's the level to. The output elements are all equal, and this creates exceptional linearity, avoiding element mismatch.



Now HERE is where we get conversion that is similar to the DSC1 (DSC2 DSC2.5 etc).

DSC1 uses 32 equally matched output elements. Unlike the ESS which receives multi-bit delta sigma with 6 binary bit / 64 individual levels, the DSC1 receives 1 binary bit DSD. It uses shift registers to create 32 1-bit streams. All the same 1-bit stream, but each stream is offset by 1 clock cycle that, along with the output elements, form a FIR filter, which in this case, is a type of very simple moving average filter, a CIC filter. (If you ever see the output of a CIC filter on chart, you will see the null points that give it its comb filter name)

Yes, the DSC 1 design has similarities to the ESS in that both use unary coded 1-bit conversion for the DAC. The ESS however is a true multi-bit signal. The DSC1, along with many other brands who do something almost exactly the same, is really just a 1-bit signal as far as actual information is concerned. But the method of conversion is very, very similar. The 1-bit way is less complex, and there are those who prefer as little complexity and as little DSP as possible. I am not here to say which is better, or if one party is right and the other is wrong. From my PERSONAL perspective, I would use the DSC2 with HQplayer any day. Thankfully I am lucky enough to have one of the very rare in the wild DSC2 converters.





ESS DAC SIGNAL PATH MOST DETAILED.png
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 12:49 PM Post #1,192 of 1,365
INDEED! The firmware on the D300 has been a bit of a mess. I kept mine to version 1.0, and use ASIO (no DoP for DSD). It works perfectly. It seems the update to 1.1, which enabled DoP, could make a mess of things.
Mine D300 is also 1.0 and I am happy with it. It arrived to me as Black Friday order from hifi-express by coincidence with the oldest firmware.

Later in comparison with v1.2 unit we found that 1.0 does support 48k DSD rates but units with newer firmware no more.
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 1:13 PM Post #1,193 of 1,365
Obviously I cannot answer with the expertise of Jussi or Bogi.

However, I have studied chip conversion for over a decade as a dedicated amateur. I have learned so much; enough to be dangerous and understand how little I actually know. That said, I think I have a fair understanding of how the ESS operates in spite of how tight-lipped ESS has been.

Everything you states seems to be right on. I didn't read it in depth, but what I did see, looks correct.

I am going to stick with DSD in; DSD out conversion to keep it simple.

ESS again has been tight-lipped on their method of DSD conversion,
but I DID happen to find a diagram from one of their datasheets that answers a LOT of questions.

This confirms that what you may have heard explained over the years by some really high-end, well respected engineers is not really correct, or at least they were obfuscating. The truth seems to be that the DSD path is not that different from what we have come to know about things like Sony's DSD-Wide, or how Cirrus, AKM and others covert DSD with DSP/Volume Control.

The Digital Signal Path below shows what I have suspected all along. DSD hits a FIR low pass filter, which creates a multi-bit signal. The signal is not 'decimated', and remains at the same rate as DSD input. (Decimation can mean more than one thing to me; in this case I say not decimated because no samples are removed, even if there is some redundancy.) The filter output can be just a few bits wide, but IF the volume control is used to attenuate, the output of the FIR filter is multiplied by a 32bit gain control, creating an even wider sample. Due to bandwidth restraints, we are probably not in a DSD unary code; we will be in binary.

Next up DSD multibit intermediate is sent to the IIR filter that is user selectable at either 47khz, 50khz, 60khz, 70khz for further noise control before it is sent to the Delta-Sigma modulator. ( Not shown in diagram is the sample rate converter for jitter reduction, but this is likely before modulator as well, although I could be incorrect here).

The modulator works as a multi-bit DSM. Considering the DAC itself has 64 unary/thermometer elements per channel, the modulator probably operates at 6 bits (binary).

The 6 bit binary output of the Delta Sigma modulator at whatever oversampled speed is used (x128 or x256) is send to a logic system that converts the 6 bit binary into a 64 level UNARY code. ( note, that in unary code, 64 elements would actually mean 65 levels because all elements 'off' is zero. Likewise, 63 elements would be required for 64 (6-bit) levels) Furthermore, ESS uses here what they call the 'revolver' technique. (similar to DCS 'Ring' DAC). Levels are 'scrambled' since unary code is essentially multiple 1-bit signals that when added together equals the correct amplitude. It doesn't matter which element the logic 'shoot's the level to. The output elements are all equal, and this creates exceptional linearity, avoiding element mismatch.



Now HERE is where we get conversion that is similar to the DSC1 (DSC2 DSC2.5 etc).

DSC1 uses 32 equally matched output elements. Unlike the ESS which receives multi-bit delta sigma with 6 binary bit / 64 individual levels, the DSC1 receives 1 binary bit DSD. It uses shift registers to create 32 1-bit streams. All the same 1-bit stream, but each stream is offset by 1 clock cycle that, along with the output elements, form a FIR filter, which in this case, is a type of very simple moving average filter, a CIC filter. (If you ever see the output of a CIC filter on chart, you will see the null points that give it its comb filter name)

Yes, the DSC 1 design has similarities to the ESS in that both use unary coded 1-bit conversion for the DAC. The ESS however is a true multi-bit signal. The DSC1, along with many other brands who do something almost exactly the same, is really just a 1-bit signal as far as actual information is concerned. But the method of conversion is very, very similar. The 1-bit way is less complex, and there are those who prefer as little complexity and as little DSP as possible. I am not here to say which is better, or if one party is right and the other is wrong. From my PERSONAL perspective, I would use the DSC2 with HQplayer any day. Thankfully I am lucky enough to have one of the very rare in the wild DSC2 converters.





ESS DAC SIGNAL PATH MOST DETAILED.png
Plus 1 re: “I would use the DSC2 with HQplayer any day.”

Just picked up one last night and could not be happier!!!
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 1:19 PM Post #1,194 of 1,365
Obviously I cannot answer with the expertise of Jussi or Bogi.

Please don't overestimate me. I am like you an amateur enthusiast. As I already wrote here I learned much form Jussi's posts and combined it with other sources.

You are right that ESS modulator output is multibit, I remembered 1bit, but it is about array of 64 1bit conversion elements. I needed to look into my older notes...

1714238164858.png


1714238248965.png


https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/r...ils-of-the-sabre-audio-dac-ess-technology-inc
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 1:41 PM Post #1,195 of 1,365
Mine D300 is also 1.0 and I am happy with it. It arrived to me as Black Friday order from hifi-express by coincidence with the oldest firmware.

Later in comparison with v1.2 unit we found that 1.0 does support 48k DSD rates but units with newer firmware no more.
i love my D300. To my ear, it is especially good with vocals. Just seductive.
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 1:43 PM Post #1,196 of 1,365
Plus 1 re: “I would use the DSC2 with HQplayer any day.”

Just picked up one last night and could not be happier!!!
warning...

once you find the filters/modulators you like in HQplayer, the sound is absolutely addictive! It is hard to listen to anything else. The only other DAC I have that may be better is the iDSD PRO. I would have a hard time picking between the two.
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 1:48 PM Post #1,197 of 1,365
warning...

once you find the filters/modulators you like in HQplayer, the sound is absolutely addictive! It is hard to listen to anything else. The only other DAC I have that may be better is the iDSD PRO. I would have a hard time picking between the two.
I also have the ifi pro and a cyan 2. It’s funny with the dsc2, I felt like I bought a TT last night not a dac!!! Everything I listened to last night sounded like i was listening to LPs

😆

It may not be a good thing to me if it is my only dac but this is a great addition to my dacs collection to have a vinyl like sounding dac - a huge contrast with the cyan 2 btw.
 
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Apr 27, 2024 at 1:56 PM Post #1,198 of 1,365
Please don't overestimate me. I am like you an amateur enthusiast. As I already wrote here I learned much form Jussi's posts and combined it with other sources.

You are right that ESS modulator output is multibit, I remembered 1bit, but it is about array of 64 1bit conversion elements. I needed to look into my older notes...

1714238164858.png

1714238248965.png

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/r...ils-of-the-sabre-audio-dac-ess-technology-inc

yeah.

i THINK if the answer is given to most people, it is perfectly fine and much less confusing to say that the ESS hyperstream DAC output is a 1-bit output. (even if it is multiple 1-bit streams)
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 1:59 PM Post #1,199 of 1,365
I also have the ifi pro and a cyan 2. It’s funny with the dsc2, I felt like I bought a TT last night not a dac!!! Everything I listened to last night sounded like i was listening to LPs

😆
YES!!

I was afraid to say it sounds like listening to the very best vinyl playback. I thought I would be ridiculed haha!

But that is exactly what I sense when I listen to my build of the DSC2. It is the most analog sounding DAC I have ever heard.

And it according to Jussi was a 'proof of concept'. By his own admission it could be made better. The sky is the limit to what someone might accomplish with the basic design.
 
Apr 27, 2024 at 2:07 PM Post #1,200 of 1,365
YES!!

I was afraid to say it sounds like listening to the very best vinyl playback. I thought I would be ridiculed haha!

But that is exactly what I sense when I listen to my build of the DSC2. It is the most analog sounding DAC I have ever heard.

And it according to Jussi was a 'proof of concept'. By his own admission it could be made better. The sky is the limit to what someone might accomplish with the basic design.
I think the vinyl sounding signature comes from the transformer output creating distortion
 

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