How much power to headphones really need?
Jul 30, 2022 at 5:07 AM Post #32 of 49
*Castleofargh calls for an auto da fé and starts piling up wood expecting maximum sentencing*
:smiling_imp:

Back to your initial question, imagining all remaining the same, what you’re supposedly doing is one time doing digital attenuation from the computer, and the other time doing the digital attenuation from the DAC. The final output voltage is very close(similar-ish listening level) and the load(headphone) hasn’t changed. So if the volume change on the DAC was only a digital attenuation, the power output would not change from case 1 in the way you initially thought.

It might be in a way similar to what @71 dB suggested. Where the DAC would perhaps change ’something’ like its output impedance when switching below a certain voltage internally. I do not know if it is what happens, but that could change power and perhaps one setting asks for current that the DAC doesn’t have, while the other setting if it has higher impedance, acts as a current limiter and maybe saves the day(while also having worse electrical damping).
Or maybe all is well in term of current(unlikely for most DACs), and you end up noticing just the impedance difference, or....?
Watts certainly knows a lot more about his DAC than we do and might answer you. But the simple fact that he’s selling some devices as DACs and some as DAC/amps while relying on very similar designs, would make me guess that the stuff labeled DAC probably has different priorities for its output design and as a result probably doesn’t have the same ability to properly drive low impedance headphones as is.
 
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Jul 30, 2022 at 5:15 AM Post #33 of 49
He is saying that level setting is achieved in digital domain. (so, no possibility of digital overload), the level is not achieved by analogue means. Doing it this way surely produces a more transparent output. (it allows headroom)
Digital overload is nasty! and since Chord dacs oversample heavily, there is a chance of digital overshoot, if there is no overhead.
A couple of problems with the above:

1. Obviously, the analogue output level must be achieved in the analogue domain. The output of the D/A conversion process has to be created at a nominal voltage level. So in the case of say a 3V output level, the output is amplified in the analogue domain to 3V. If we also want say a 2V output, then we must attenuate that 3V output, either by using some sort of analogue “pad” or in Chord’s case, by attenuating the digital input level.

2. Yes, digital overload is nasty and is very likely to occur when oversampling, due to “inter-sample peaks” (ISPs). But, this is a typical example of a common audiophile marketing strategy: Mention a *potential* problem with some aspect of the reproduction process, then explain how your clever design solves that problem and is therefore superior to other, cheaper, non-audiophile designs. However, this is BS marketing because it fails to mention that this potential problem has not only already been addressed but has in fact been standard practice for many years, even with cheap DACs. In this case, oversampling DACs already have built-in headroom to accommodate ISPs. I’m sure there are some exceptions, probably amongst the earliest, cheaper CD players but for around 30 years or so, pretty much all DACs allow ~3dB or more of headroom before oversampling. In other words, this statement is correct: “there is a chance of digital overshoot, if there is no overhead.” - but it’s irrelevant because there pretty much always IS “overhead”!

Therefore, using more digital attenuation than would already be applied as standard by even cheap DAC chips, “surely” does NOT “produce a more transparent output”!
It is not just clipping, at 0dB digital, the noise shaper goes sideways a bit - I am not an expert, but the graphs say so.
But the graphs do not say so. The graphs indicate some clipping distortion but not that it’s been caused by the “noise-shaper going sideways”, it could be a flaw in the upsampling process, the filter or some other part of the process. However, the level of this distortion isn’t even reproducible by HPs/Speakers, let alone be audible.

A simple demonstration that noise-shaping doesn’t go sideways at 0dB is the SACD format. SACD only has 1bit, to achieve a dynamic range greater than 6dB (approx 120dB) it relies on aggressive noise-shaping. But obviously, being 1bit, with only two quantisation levels (effectively 0dB and -6dB) then the signal is at 0dB about half the time and if your assertion were true, the noise-shaping would therefore be almost constantly “sideways” and causing such high levels of distortion that the SACD format would be useless, but in reality of course there’s no audible sign of this “sideways” distortion.
Needs more digging into.
That’s another fairly common audiophile marketing strategy: “It isn’t really understood” and/or “hasn’t really be researched” or “has only recently been researched but needs more digging into”, etc. This is a blatant marketing lie which is often applied to the (non) issue of jitter but is also quite common in other areas as well. In fact, this has been well “dug into” since at least the early 1990’s.
Using the digital level settings ensures cleaner output in audio band and beyond, OK you may lose a dB or two in SINAD, but as you correctly said before, what does that matter? Once past a certain line, SINAD becomes irrelevant.
Using digital level settings does NOT ensure “cleaner output in the audio band and beyond”, it ensures noisier or far noisier output, depending on the amount of digital attenuation. As explained in my previous post.

BTW, I’m not accusing you of blatant lying or marketing falsehoods, just of repeating them (presumably without realising?).

G
 
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Jul 30, 2022 at 8:13 AM Post #35 of 49
Watts certainly knows a lot more about his DAC than we do and might answer you. But the simple fact that he’s selling some devices as DACs and some as DAC/amps while relying on very similar designs, would make me guess that the stuff labeled DAC probably has different priorities for its output design and as a result probably doesn’t have the same ability to properly drive low impedance headphones as is.

The fact that he sells DAC+amps is also perhaps a good part of the reason why he has never responded to the occasional posts about "direct driving" on the Chord Qutest thread here (even when directly asked a question), and therefore he's unlikely to respond to mine.
 
Jul 30, 2022 at 9:10 AM Post #36 of 49
The fact that he sells DAC+amps is also perhaps a good part of the reason why he has never responded to the occasional posts about "direct driving" on the Chord Qutest thread here (even when directly asked a question), and therefore he's unlikely to respond to mine.

Don't you think he has better things to do instead of going through every single thread in head-fi and responding to random dudes queries ?
 
Jul 30, 2022 at 9:51 AM Post #38 of 49
Actually, he responds to many, many queries from "random dudes" on head-fi, especially direct questions about his products.

You really think that Rob has time to monitor every single thread ? This is a thread not about qutest and why you can't simply pm him ?
 
Jul 30, 2022 at 10:10 AM Post #39 of 49
You really think that Rob has time to monitor every single thread ? This is a thread not about qutest and why you can't simply pm him ?

I don't expect him to monitor every thread, and I don't want to ask him questions about unsupported/unusual uses of his products. I totally understand that he wouldn't respond. I wouldn't either, if I were him. That is why I'm posting on head-fi instead of simply emailing Chord official support.
 
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Jul 30, 2022 at 1:49 PM Post #40 of 49
The fact that he sells DAC+amps is also perhaps a good part of the reason why he has never responded to the occasional posts about "direct driving" on the Chord Qutest thread here (even when directly asked a question), and therefore he's unlikely to respond to mine.
I did a quick search and came up with these:
1659202975039.png


1659203066421.png


Basically, he has answered the question.
The output stage of the Qutest is a simple class A, designed for higher impedance preamps, needing not much current. It will not convert to class AB (like a Hugo2) for lower impedance loads, such as your DCA headphone, to deliver more current.
Qutest should be able to drive higher impedance, fairly efficient headphones, but once the impedance drops to few tens of ohms, it can not deliver the current needed.
Does that answer your question?
 
Jul 30, 2022 at 2:27 PM Post #41 of 49
I did a quick search and came up with these:
1659202975039.png

1659203066421.png

Basically, he has answered the question.
The output stage of the Qutest is a simple class A, designed for higher impedance preamps, needing not much current. It will not convert to class AB (like a Hugo2) for lower impedance loads, such as your DCA headphone, to deliver more current.
Qutest should be able to drive higher impedance, fairly efficient headphones, but once the impedance drops to few tens of ohms, it can not deliver the current needed.
Does that answer your question?
My headphone is an Hifiman Arya Stealth (32ohm-94db sensitivity), not a DCA headphone.

Thanks a lot for looking up the the quotes from Rob Watts: they are informative, but do not really answer my question, for the following reasons:

The first quote says that to use the Qutest with a headphone, one must either use an third-party external amp, or a Hugo 2/TT2/Dave. However I'm currently using a headphone directly out of a Qutest, and it sounds good at 3V. So what he claims can't be true, it's just a use-case he doesn't want to talk about.

As for the second quote, yes, I agree that headphones with higher-impedance but still high-sensitivity would fare better, needing very little current (in fact, I'm considering getting a Focal Utopia - 80ohm-104db sensitivity - for this very reason). But this does not answer why 3V sounds better than 1V on my Aryas, since, as discussed earlier in this thread, the current draw for both cases is the same. If 3V sounds good, 1V should too.
 
Jul 30, 2022 at 4:54 PM Post #42 of 49
My headphone is an Hifiman Arya Stealth (32ohm-94db sensitivity), not a DCA headphone.
I had a couple of paints, I don't know where I pulled DCA from, but planar headphones are similar electrically. They are all low impedance, mostly inefficient, with flat impedance curves, so no sweat.
The first quote says that to use the Qutest with a headphone, one must either use an third-party external amp, or a Hugo 2/TT2/Dave. However I'm currently using a headphone directly out of a Qutest, and it sounds good at 3V. So what he claims can't be true, it's just a use-case he doesn't want to talk about.
This is what I know! RW has this design for headphone amps, which is in class A mode for higher impedance loads, but goes into class AB mode for lower impedance loads, so it can deliver the needed currents.
On Qutest, the class AB mode was not needed, so it stays in class A mode, regardless.
BTW if it sounds good, count your lucky stars, don't dig in further :relaxed:.
Saying what he says is not true, may be mistaken for he is lying, hope you don't mean that. He is an engineer, and technically the output stage of the Qutest is not designed for headphones, but give him credit that it still manages to sound good.
As for the second quote, yes, I agree that headphones with higher-impedance but still high-sensitivity would fare better, needing very little current (in fact, I'm considering getting a Focal Utopia - 80ohm-104db sensitivity - for this very reason). But this does not answer why 3V sounds better than 1V on my Aryas, since, as discussed earlier in this thread, the current draw for both cases is the same. If 3V sounds good, 1V should too.
I don't know, but guessing a few things:
- You could be imagining it or
- Qutest uses digital attenuation for output level. 3V means no attenuation, so no bits are discarded in the dac. But when you lower the volume in player, bits are discarded at software level. The effect can be different depending on your software player, an effect you enjoy as sounding better.
It is a unique situation.
 
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Jul 30, 2022 at 11:57 PM Post #43 of 49
This is what I know! RW has this design for headphone amps, which is in class A mode for higher impedance loads, but goes into class AB mode for lower impedance loads, so it can deliver the needed currents.
On Qutest, the class AB mode was not needed, so it stays in class A mode, regardless.
BTW if it sounds good, count your lucky stars, don't dig in further :relaxed:.
Saying what he says is not true, may be mistaken for he is lying, hope you don't mean that. He is an engineer, and technically the output stage of the Qutest is not designed for headphones, but give him credit that it still manages to sound good.

Haha, yes, I'm lucky that it is indeed working well, despite not being designed for it. And RW certainly deserves credit for that! I certainly don't mean that he's lying or anything like that. I can't fault him for not recommending a use-case the Qutest was never designed for, especially since he sells other products that are designed for headphone use.

- You could be imagining it or

It is certainly possible that it's all placebo! :)
 
Jul 31, 2022 at 5:19 AM Post #44 of 49
Haha, yes, I'm lucky that it is indeed working well, despite not being designe....
It is certainly possible that it's all placebo! :)
Today is CanJam in London, getting ready to attend.
Which reminds me, RW had said he couldn't attend this one, because he would be on a Cruise holiday with family.
Perhaps when he gets back, he might reply and enlighten us both.
 
Jul 31, 2022 at 6:28 AM Post #45 of 49
Saying what he says is not true, may be mistaken for he is lying, hope you don't mean that.
TBH, it’s very difficult to come to any other conclusion, as the only other potential conclusion is that he’s such an misinformed/ignorant engineer it’s amazing any of his DACs even work (which of course they do).

But some like the colouration that external headphone amps create” - But external headphone amps don’t create colouration, with some pathological exceptions.

And of course some headphones need added warmth, then the Qutest would apply.” - Hang on, he went on about how the Qutest’s digital volume control “ensures complete transparency” but now he’s effectively claiming that the Qutest is so far from complete transparency that it’s actually audibly warmer.

The benefit the Hugo 2 has is the analogue noise shaper output” - There’s no such thing as analogue noise shaping, it’s an inherently digital process: “Noise shaping is a technique that reduces the perceived requantization noise level by feeding back the requantisation error around the truncation or rounding operation” (Psychoacoustically Optimal Noise-Shaping - R Wanamaker). Plus, Chord’s own advertising states the noise-shaping is performed by their own custom FPGA, so it must be digital! So apparently, “the benefit the Hugo 2 has” is something that doesn’t exist!

There’s various other examples (conventional amps do not have poor HF feedback for instance) but it would take too long to go through everything he claims/states.

Incidentally, glad the Hugo 2’s amp gain product is only 20gHz, because 32gHz is the frequency microwave ovens work at, and I don’t think that boiling your brain is what audiophiles mean by “added warmth”! Lol.
But when you lower the volume in player, bits are discarded at software level.
Well that depends on how you do it. If you do it within a float environment (say 32 or 64 bit float) then bits are not discarded. If you are discarding (truncating) bits though, then that doesn’t necessarily make any audible difference if you correctly noise-shape dither the process.

G
 

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