[umvue]

Quote:

What sort of jobs in North Dakota that pay $90k ?

oil drilling job?

 

[KneelJung]

[size=medium]Thank you for your thoughts Elysian, lots of food for thought, and stuff for people to chew on. What I found interesting about that video; and apparently you have seen it before too; is how it managed to distill some very powerful processes that have shaped our economy over the long run; and provide a frame and context for some of our current issues.[/size]
 
[size=medium]IMO the issues are very systemic in nature due to dysfunction in both our economic system and political system. Other systems as well and everything is interdependent, but those two systems in general are the harbinger of most of what ails us.[/size]
 
[size=medium]The thoughts you provided by and attributed to Sarah Palin are IMO very reminiscent of what John Edwards was giving voice to, when he ran for President, and his concept of two America’s. The problem though is both Edwards and Palin are part of the same “political class” that they are supposedly demonizing.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Quote: [/size]

[size=medium]She made three interlocking points. First, that the United States is now governed by a “permanent political class,” drawn from both parties, that is increasingly cut off from the concerns of regular people. Second, that these Republicans and Democrats have allied with big business to mutual advantage to create what she called “corporate crony capitalism.” Third, that the real political divide in the United States may no longer be between friends and foes of Big Government, but between friends and foes of vast, remote, unaccountable institutions (both public and private).[/size]
[size=medium]...[/size]
[size=medium]Do you want to know why nothing ever really gets done?” she said, referring to politicians. “It’s because there’s nothing in it for them. They’ve got a lot of mouths to feed — a lot of corporate lobbyists and a lot of special interests that are counting on them to keep the good times and the money rolling along.” [/size]  
[size=medium]Because her party has agitated for the wholesale deregulation of money in politics and the unshackling of lobbyists, these will be heard in some quarters as sacrilegious words.[/size]
 
[size=medium]Ms. Palin’s third point was more striking still: in contrast to the sweeping paeans to capitalism and the free market delivered by the Republican presidential candidates whose ranks she has yet to join, she sought to make a distinction between good capitalists and bad ones. The good ones, in her telling, are those small businesses that take risks and sink and swim in the churning market; the bad ones are well-connected megacorporations that live off bailouts, dodge taxes and profit terrifically while creating no jobs. [/size]

 
[size=medium]What they are giving voice to though IMO is a powerful truth, but to what end are they giving voice to that truth. Barack Obama gave voice to some powerful truths also, but it doesn’t seem like anything at all has changed.  The two America’s that Edwards talked about, is the same dichotomy that Palin is talking about.  The irony and tragedy of these truth tellers is, none of them get their soap box unless they are in the long run, really champions of the status quo; and champions for the vast, remote, unaccountable institutions that finance their campaigns.[/size]
 
[size=medium]That’s my spin on our political dysfunction. Our economic dysfunction IMO is caused by the folks that make up those vast, remote, unaccountable institutions; the global multi-national corporations, the too big to fails, the owners of capital and theoretical job creators. I think one of the fundamental flaws in the American psyche; the American way of thinking if you will, is this whole notion that if you allow the owners of capital to keep more of their money; they will invest it in productive capacity. I think it’s more likely that the owners of capital invest that money in places with lower labor costs or arcane financial instruments.  Labor costs from the perspective of business represent a tax on a company’s revenues and affects their profitability. The paradox is one side’s labor costs are the other side’s income, and consumption. Hard to participate in a consumer based economy without the where withal to do so.[/size]
 
[size=medium]As Nouriel  Roubini recently suggested capitalism may very well be eating itself; and that’s sort of where that video I linked left off,  and brings us to your question:[/size]
 
 
[size=medium]Quote: [/size]

[size=medium]What now?[/size]
 
[size=medium]What's the best way the US government can get people back to work given our massive deficits, and the huge amount of personal debt for US households?  Should we go for an even bigger stimulus plan?  Should we adopt a two-stage plan which combines a short-term stimulus (can we afford one?) with significant (and painful) long-term budgetary reform?  Is there an even better solution? [/size]

[size=medium] [/size]
[size=medium]I dont know that I have an answer. I do believe as Albert Einstein once said, you cant solve problems at the same level of thinking that created them in the first place. Which means if we are going to be able to solve these problems we need to start listening to each other. Which was a point John Torturo made when he was on Bill Mahers show not too long ago. He was discussing his latest film Passione, about the music of Italy, when he made a really good segue about musicians being able to hear each other to be in harmony, and our current political climate.[/size]
[size=medium] [/size]
[size=medium]With reference to Sarah Palins Two Capitalisms comment here is a very interesting article:[/size]
[size=medium] [/size]
[size=medium]Two Capitalisms by Joel Hirshorn[/size]
 
 
 
[size=medium] [/size]

 

[Todd R]

Quote:

TV says there are many $90K jobs in North Dakota. How come people are not flocking there?

I spent 2 winters there. 
Anyplace where it's so cold you have to plug in your car's block heater every night, or else it won't start in the morning is no place humans were meant to live. 

 

[logwed]

Quote:

TV says there are many $90K jobs in North Dakota. How come people are not flocking there?

My grandpa was telling me that ND has the highest per capita concentration of millionaires of any state, probably old farmers selling their land/oil. There's a lot of money out there, and not a lot of people. It is quite inhospitable, and rather desolate when it comes down to population centers, but the latter will eventually improve as people follow the money.

 

[digitaldissent]

Well my job cut back on raises a little but other than that I feel pretty happy, I bought two cars at 2.9% and a house at 4.50% in the last year. My wife was also laid off but landed a better job and for more money, she was only out of work for two months. I think we really have lucked out, we work in the video game and health care industries. Our investments however are growing very slowly.

 

[bcasey25raptor]

I have studied this economic crisis enough and it only leads me to the unfortunate truth. My friends we are heading towards dark times. We could be nearing the largest economic collapse since the great depression.
 
Take this video for what it's worth,
 

 

[logwed]

I'm glad that a teenager understands the US' problems so well based on a youtube video, thank god that you exist.

 

[bcasey25raptor]

Quote:

I'm glad that a teenager understands the US' problems so well based on a youtube video, thank god that you exist.

I know you are being sarcastic. If you have nothing nice to say or if you have nothing to contribute to this conversation don't say anything at all.
 
Also i didn't just watch that video and jump to that conclusion i did research and read many articles written by economists.

 

[Elysian]

Quote:

[size=medium]That’s my spin on our political dysfunction. Our economic dysfunction IMO is caused by the folks that make up those vast, remote, unaccountable institutions; the global multi-national corporations, the too big to fails, the owners of capital and theoretical job creators. I think one of the fundamental flaws in the American psyche; the American way of thinking if you will, is this whole notion that if you allow the owners of capital to keep more of their money; they will invest it in productive capacity. I think it’s more likely that the owners of capital invest that money in places with lower labor costs or arcane financial instruments.  Labor costs from the perspective of business represent a tax on a company’s revenues and affects their profitability. The paradox is one side’s labor costs are the other side’s income, and consumption. Hard to participate in a consumer based economy without the where withal to do so.[/size]
...
[size=medium]With reference to Sarah Palins Two Capitalisms comment here is a very interesting article:[/size]
[size=medium] [/size]
[size=medium]Two Capitalisms by Joel Hirshorn[/size][size=medium] [/size]

That's a great article, and one I haven't run across before.  I think the country is starting to realize that neither excessive regulation nor unbridled capitalism is the right way to go.  The mortgage industry is one of those places where you have to wonder whether proper scrutiny and regulation would have blunted the worst of it.  Some areas of the economy simply seem to need closer oversight, and it'll be interesting seeing how things shake out over the next several years.  It seems like people are doing more cost-benefit analyses than in the past (such as what President Obama likely did when he decided to wait the full 5 years before recalibrating ozone emissions standards) since we don't have the financial buffer to enact policy and then run the ROI analysis afterwards.  When you have too much government control and micromanagement, I think you can make a clear case that entropy sets into the system.  From a sheer command-and-control model, the US military realizes this, which is why it continues to decentralize control from the Pentagon, and place decision making authority at the platoon, company, and battalion level.  I haven't seen any studies on this, but I think it'd be interesting to see how this extends to optimization of resources in the market.
 
Though, to be blunt, I think policymakers are generally pretty bad at measuring ROI in an objective way, both quantitatively and qualitatively, and our legislators generally shoot from the hip to please their constituents.  Most US legislators studies humanities and law and aren't technocrats, though, so that's to be expected given our roster.
 
Your point cleanly summarizes the issue no one's really figured out yet.  We haven't figured what policy levers we can push or pull, or where the government can put money back into the economy, to garner the best possible return.  As you mentioned, I think most people will agree that, ultimately, we need to raise the spending power of the US consumer.  I'd also add that we need the US consumer to balance their spending, saving, and debt at more responsible ratios.  The two major parties are looking at this as a pretty binary issue, so I'd presume that in 2012, the voters will finish with their 'referendum' and put the Republicans solidly back into power, and then the GOP will have 2-4 years to see if its orthodoxy has any impact on the economy.  I still feel, though, that the best ideas are coming from the outside (such as your reference to some of Edwards' previous contentions, and some of Palin's wiser comments), but due to the unaccountable institutions you mention, even a politically canny operator like Clinton or Romney won't be able to move the goalposts far.
 
Quote:

Also i didn't just watch that video and jump to that conclusion i did research and read many articles written by economists.

 
To expand on bcasey's point, it's a particularly concerning one given how a lot of international signs are pointing towards the global economy entering a doom loop.  The same major macroeconomic concerns in that video are affecting many countries beyond the US.  Even China has a number of structural issues which are becoming more and more apparent, and Germany and France (well, their leaders, anyway) are doing everything they can to manage Greece, Italy, and Spain's risk of endangering the entire EU.  It's hard to create growth when there's very fuel left in the tank, and a lot of the uprisings in the Middle East reflect the grim economic realities those populations are facing.  It's going to be pretty scary when they run out of their natural resources, or when the world finally moves on without them.

 

[Currawong]

Just a note that, due to the arguments it causes, we don't allow political (or, though not related to this thread, just FYI, religious) discussion discussion on Head-Fi. 

 

[bcasey25raptor]

Quote:

Just a note that, due to the arguments it causes, we don't allow political (or, though not related to this thread, just FYI, religious) discussion discussion on Head-Fi. 

Ok we are sorry and if we wish to continue on we will take it to pm's.

 

[Elysian]

Quote:

Just a note that, due to the arguments it causes, we don't allow political (or, though not related to this thread, just FYI, religious) discussion discussion on Head-Fi. 

Is it okay to keep the discussion within the realm of theory and history?

 

[Audio-Omega]

I wish I didn't have the urge to upgrade my disc player.  

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Is it okay to keep the discussion within the realm of theory and history?

Use common sense.

 

[gavinfabl]

The economy has impacted me in many ways. But I worry for my eldest son, he is 15 coming on to 16. What future does he have? No jobs, employers treating staff poorly, redundancies and failures everywhere. And soon after him, my other 2 sons and daughter will be looking at the job market. I am worried. This recession is deep and worldwide and will last 5 years minimum I reckon.