[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr What I would like to see is measurements that give any creadence to the claims being made. Show me the data! I agree that state of the art now may not be what is state of the art tomorrow. But not one post on this thread has refered to any data at all. Show me some Data. Any Data!

I don't have data, at least as far as what I understand you to mean by "data." I thought that was obvious. The question is whether the lack of current data resolves the issue. I don't think it does. I would like to know why you think the lack of current data is conclusive on the issue, if that's what you believe. You seem intent on dodging the question, but perhaps we are miscommunicating.

In any event, I am heading out to lunch now to my favorite Sushi place. Their cut rolls are awesome (although I have no data to prove this).

 

[morphie]

That works, I'll wait for your comparative review then.

 

[geek707]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS I don't have data, at least as far as what I understand you to mean by "data." I thought that was obvious. The question is whether the lack of current data resolves the issue. I don't think it does. I would like to know why you think the lack of current data is conclusive on the issue, if that's what you believe. You seem intent on dodging the question, but perhaps we are miscommunicating.

I suggest quite the the opposite is true. There is hard data around for more than 20 years that shows why speaker cables, and interconnects sound different. In 20 years there have been tremendous advances is data sampling, and yet all anyone can say when I ask someone to show any reference as to why magic power cables work is buy one and try it. Or buy 6 and try them, or maybe burn hundred dollar bills and blow the ash in the direction of my system. Or just buy it it's magic. Don't try to understand why.
I am honestly interested as to why this works. But it is clear no one here as any idea as to why. To each his own I guess..

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr I suggest quite the the opposite is true. There is hard data around for more than 20 years that shows why speaker cables, and interconnects sound different.

This is interesting, because my understanding is that most, if not all, skeptics would say that there is no data showing that a properly constructed interconnect actually can sound different than another properly constructed interconnect. There may be measurable differences between interconnects in terms of capacitance, inductance, etc., but these differences are alleged to be inaudible. Are you in agreement that even though the "data" differences between various interconnects are not supposed to be audible that they are, in fact, audible? Or are you referring to some other specific data that shows that one interconnect can sound different than another?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr I am honestly interested as to why this works. But it is clear no one here as any idea as to why. To each his own I guess...

Maybe we are making some progress. You seem to be conceding now that there is a possibility that there may be differences in the sound of powercords for reasons that we don't undertand or cannot presently measure, whereas previously I understood your position to be that the lack of current data was absolutely conclusive on the issue.

 

[morphie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr I suggest quite the the opposite is true. There is hard data around for more than 20 years that shows why speaker cables, and interconnects sound different. In 20 years there have been tremendous advances is data sampling, and yet all anyone can say when I ask someone to show any reference as to why magic power cables work is buy one and try it. Or buy 6 and try them, or maybe burn hundred dollar bills and blow the ash in the direction of my system. Or just buy it it's magic. Don't try to understand why. I am honestly interested as to why this works. But it is clear no one here as any idea as to why. To each his own I guess..

If you really were interested in this youd have read everything that was said and would realize there are some cable sellers that have a 30 day tryout period after which, if youre not satisfied, they will refund you entirely. You're just arguing for the sake or arguing and being right.

 

[braillediver]

Yeah it’s like picking at a scab- it hurts and you know nothing good will come of it but you just have to scratch that itch.


To the skeptics- Just Yes or No Please?

Do interconnects have a different sonic signature? Do Interconnects sound the same?

Do Op Amps of the same class and specification sound the same?

Do CD Players sound the same?

Do vacuum tubes of the same type sound the same?

Do capacitors sound the same? Black Gate vs. Elma etc?


If I could quantifiably measure the acoustic signature and differences that makes a Raytheon 5751 Windmill getter sound better than a generic Sylvania 5751 I would be a wealthy man since I could then reproduce the tube in quantity and verify the results on a technical level. But I can’t and no one else can.

The Mullards, the Bugle Boys, the Telefunkens all sound different and unique but they all measure the same and they measure the same as new production tubes.

I have never heard of anyone claim that they could identify a vacuum tube by measuring some electrical parameter. Yet the audible signature is different and identifiable.

I have No Doubt that if Svetlana or any other modern tube manufacturer could reproduce the classic tubes they would- but they can’t. New tubes sound good but not the same as the classics. Why? Because there’s an intangible difference that no one can identify or measure.


My point is not everything is measurable but the differences exist- I’ve heard them.


“I suggest quite the opposite is true. There is hard data around for more than 20 years that shows why speaker cables, and interconnects sound different.”

Really? How about a link to this hard data.


Mitch

 

[geek707]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie If you really were interested in this youd have read everything that was said and would realize there are some cable sellers that have a 30 day tryout period after which, if youre not satisfied, they will refund you entirely. You're just arguing for the sake or arguing and being right.

No I keep asking a question that nobody here can answer.
I would like to know why this might work.
All anyone can say is: try it.
I can point to serveral tweeks, that have come and gone over the years that have been what this appears to be, a way of removing money from someone pocket.
Being right? I have been doing nothing but ask that someone put up some facts. Which clearly no one here can do.
To bad.

 

[S_Dedalus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr No I keep asking a question that nobody here can answer. I would like to know why this might work. All anyone can say is: try it. I can point to serveral tweeks, that have come and gone over the years that have been what this appears to be, a way of removing money from someone pocket. Being right? I have been doing nothing but ask that someone put up some facts. Which clearly no one here can do. To bad.

With larger wire and better connections, you allow more current to pass through the cable. With better shielding you reduce the noice introduced by the power cable. The first advantage would help regardless of filtering, while the second would have very little effect without a power conditioner.
Different cable materials will also affect the way the cable transfers the power, as will higher quality wire.
I've never tried better cables, but I do use a cheap power conditioner, and it did improve over a filtered surge protector which also improved over a dirt cheap outlet strip. I'm not sure if a better cable would really help in my system, but if I were using equipment drawing much more current, had a good power conditioner, and had a reference quality source, I bet there would be a difference.

 

[aerius]

I'm still waiting for an answer from the measurement people, seems like they're too busy arguing to answer questions.

Once again:

1. How do you measure soundstage size & depth? What would you use to measure it with?

2. Detail. How are you going to measure it? What kind of graph, chart, or stat are you going to use to say that yes, this system indeed makes a '67 Fender Stratocaster sound like a '67 Strat instead of a '93 model?

3. Groove. What makes music sound alive. Where can one look up groove on a graph, chart, or spec?

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr No I keep asking a question that nobody here can answer. I would like to know why this might work. All anyone can say is: try it. I can point to serveral tweeks, that have come and gone over the years that have been what this appears to be, a way of removing money from someone pocket. Being right? I have been doing nothing but ask that someone put up some facts. Which clearly no one here can do. To bad.

Are you gonna respond to the previous threads (specifically mine and the one by braillediver) are you just going to keep repeating the same nonsense? How about elevating the level of discussion above the type of retorts one gets in the third grade?

 

[morphie]

Do you really think so many people from so many different places with so much age diversity are out for your money? Buddy, to tell you the honest truth, noone here gives a hot damn about your money. We're here to share our experience of listening to quality audio products, we're not manufacturers or sellers of any kind, and in the end wether you buy a power cord or not is of absolutly no importance to me. Get real.

 

[geek707]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Are you gonna respond to the previous threads (specifically mine and the one by braillediver) are you just going to keep repeating the same nonsense? How about elevating the level of discussion above the type of retorts one gets in the third grade?

I have no problems with subtile differences in componets in the signal path, cables, or tubes, or whatever being able to cause differences in sound that some people can hear. I am noth going to give a source to Brailedriver, because one, I agree with him, two, it was 20 years ago in a long dead audio mag.
I agree with your first statement:
Quote:

This is interesting, because my understanding is that most, if not all, skeptics would say that there is no data showing that a properly constructed interconnect actually can sound different than another properly constructed interconnect. There may be measurable differences between interconnects in terms of capacitance, inductance, etc., but these differences are alleged to be inaudible. Are you in agreement that even though the "data" differences between various interconnects are not supposed to be audible that they are, in fact, audible? Or are you referring to some other specific data that shows that one interconnect can sound different than another?

No the study I saw was by a manufacter of speaker cables, and we was able to show differences between cables that should not have made a difference, but clearly did.
This:
Quote:

This is interesting, because my understanding is that most, if not all, skeptics would say that there is no data showing that a properly constructed interconnect actually can sound different than another properly constructed interconnect. There may be measurable differences between interconnects in terms of capacitance, inductance, etc., but these differences are alleged to be inaudible. Are you in agreement that even though the "data" differences between various interconnects are not supposed to be audible that they are, in fact, audible? Or are you referring to some other specific data that shows that one interconnect can sound different than another?

is a cop-out.
I have no trouble with stuff in the signal path. I have no problems with active devices like power conditioners making a difference in an old house or apartment that has poor wiring.
I have problems with magic cables, outside the signal path changing anything in a device that has been designed correctly.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danamr I have no problems with subtile differences in componets in the signal path, cables, or tubes, or whatever being able to cause differences in sound that some people can hear.

We know. But the point is -- again -- that, while you have no problem admitting that components in the signal path can sound different, you cannot point to measurements (other than the one study your refer to regarding speaker cables) that show they should sound different. On the other hand, you keep insisting that you will not accept that power cords can sound different without data showing a difference in measurements. This is completely inconsistent, and you refuse to explain or address your postion. You just keep repeating what you said before, or changing the facts you reference in previous posts (e.g., your previous post also referred to studies or data re interconnects). One can only conclude that you are being deliberately obstinate. Therefore, I'm not going to waste any further time discussing these elementary matters with you. On the other hand, I look forward to conversing with you on the other forums in Head-Fi.

 

[shimage]

Ok everybody, this is stupid. There is so much stupid here that my brains threatening to fall out. If it isn't already painfully obvious that this is getting no where and that both sides are being equally pissy, then you are beyond help. I don't understand the other side of this issue very well, so I won't speak for you all, but to try and help everybody here understand the skeptics (the proper ones, anyway), here goes.

I understand that you (that is, the not-skeptics) like to believe whatever suits you. It seems that most Americans are like that (a study published shortly before the election showed that something like 50% of self-proclaimed Conservatives believed that WMDs had been found in Iraq). I'm not like that. I enjoy learning about new things, so that I can understand them. That's what science is about: understanding. The statement "I hear a difference, despite the fact that all other knowledge would suggest that this is not possible" is, in part, difficult to defend because there is no understanding; there isn't even a hint of where to start looking. [It's not the current, since I've got $10 extension cords at home that can carry 15 A; and it's not the noise, since that's stuff we can filter.] Now if it were something obvious, like, "Rubbing cat fur on a glass rod charges the rod, but I don't get why" is different, since that's easily verifiable and I know where to start: friction. Brains are complicated though. They like to play tricks. Psychologists are very familiar with this and they know how to deal with it, though audiophiles seem to lack this facility.

Chief in the success of science is the idea of peer review. Nothing anyone says is (or at least should be) accepted without review. Things that cannot be reproduced are summarily ignored. Experiments that do not account for systematic errors are ignored. This isn't new. It allows for the correction of errors. So skepticism is healthy.

There is also this issue of plausibility. It's sort of a filter, to sift out all the cruft. I don't know about other disiplines, but in Physics, if you cannot explain why an effect has any right to exist, then you had better have some serious data to back it up. I've stated before that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". That means the evidence has to go above and beyond. No, it can't barely clear the bar. It can't even handily hop over it. It has to destroy the bar. This makes sure that we don't throw away perfectly good science because some shmuck thinks he saw something weird.

Now, I have already argued left and right about what constitutes a good measurement. I will say just one thing more about it. Several years ago when I was still a little green, I was trying to choose a music player. I was torn between Sonique (version 1.8 or so) and Winamp (~ v 2.7). I didn't expect there to be a difference, certainly not an audible one, but it costs nothing to check, right? So I checked, and I heard a difference. I touted in various forums: "I think Sonique sounds better, but I can see why you'd like the sound signature Winamp more. The difference must have been real, because I wasn't expecting it! I mean, that's anti-placebo, isn't it?"

What an idiot. If you don't feel the need to account for placebo, that's fine. But that's Bad Science. In any case, this is how I've been trained. I am naturally skeptical of anything that doesn't make sense. If there is enough data that is sufficiently good, then that would be fine too. I wouldn't need an explanation; I wouldn't even need to take the data myself. I think I'm being very generous here. But I don't see any data. Challenging me to waste my time is a waste of time itself. As in the scientific community, the onus is on the bucker to buck the system. The system isn't going to do it for you. That said, I think that in the future we should all be able to get along just fine thinking exactly as we do right now provided that we agree to disagree. I don't expect you to satisfy me, and you shouldn't expect me to satisfy you. Great, so now we can be friends again, right?

 

[ACAVant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius I'm still waiting for an answer from the measurement people, seems like they're too busy arguing to answer questions. Once again: 1. How do you measure soundstage size & depth? What would you use to measure it with? 2. Detail. How are you going to measure it? What kind of graph, chart, or stat are you going to use to say that yes, this system indeed makes a '67 Fender Stratocaster sound like a '67 Strat instead of a '93 model? 3. Groove. What makes music sound alive. Where can one look up groove on a graph, chart, or spec?

I assume your talking about sound reproduction equipment when measuring these things? If not, this answer won't make any sense. The only measurement I can think of would be a comparison between the recording and the original piece. Perhaps using an oscilloscope as they would to match sound waves produced? You'd be looking for as close a match as possible because there will be some differences in the two signals. If it is a perfect recording and played back flawlessly theoretically they'd match. Variables are introduced by the equipment used in recording and playing back though. Such as power cables

I do believe this would be the only way because the best we can get from our systems is a recording of the original piece.