[bigshot]

They should teach logic in schools again.

 

[knownothing2]

I try to not be as condescending as some others....when they wonder what kind of "magical" thinking you're pursing, maybe it boils down to a misunderstanding of what electric current is. A USB storage device (even USB 3) has a relatively low power consumption. As the Bluesound's links indicate: if a USB 2 device is used (which usually assumed a separate DC power input), it simply won't be recognized (because it doesn't have enough power to function). Your references are what I've been saying: USB devices are either recognized or not: audio reproduction is bit perfect when it comes to streaming off them if recognized. When it came to real world examples of synchronous streaming with coax: I was merely interjecting that there might be a hundredths of a millisecond off of it starting (something that's imperceptible in the real world). You say "overtaxed server that is conserved via the coax connection".....you've also interchangeably said "underpowered" drives tax the system. But that's not how things work. A DAC is independent of a player outputting coax signal or USB input. I don't know how many times I can continue that an underpowered USB device just won't be recognized by the DAC. With a coax device, it has to function to send a digital stream...and in practical applications we don't see jitter or noise distortion.

When it comes to current, a power supply only needs to provide enough current to which the system draws. These USB systems are fairly minuscule in the scheme of things. Now with laptops, the push is having USB-C interfaces that can accept over 100W for higher performance systems. With these complicated systems, if they don't get enough power, then it means the performance is hampered (which the OS is under powering the GPU and CPU).

Again, thanks. But I am not claiming an effect on the drive. I am suggesting that the switching supply in the Node is producing more noise when supplying the mechanical drives than when supplying the solid state devices and/or affecting the clock signal generated in the server, and those slight errors are conserved in the signal to the external DAC, producing audible differences in the listening chair. Am I making myself clear, because from your replies I think I may not be. I am suggesting this is a one-off situation unlikely to be repeated in other circumstances.

kn

 

[71 dB]

They should teach logic in schools again.

Logic, critical thinking, source criticism, philosophy,... ...I don't even know what they teach in schools these days. How to become a social media influencer?

 

[KinGensai]

Logic, critical thinking, source criticism, philosophy,... ...I don't even know what they teach in schools these days. How to become a social media influencer?

I did not learn western analytical philosophy until undergrad liberal arts coursework as an elective. I think the conventional explanation is that math is supposed to substitute for logic, a weak rationale IMO.

I suspect that analytical philosophy is not taught in public schools for the same reason that Socrates was killed by the Athenians and Freud made a curious U turn when investigating psychopathology in Vienna, the truth and critical reasoning is inconvenient to people who seek power.

 

[knownothing2]

@bigshot says “
An underpowered hard disk drive won't mount. If it won't mount, it can't be accessed by the DAC. Davesrose is right. This isn't a matter of science. Just RTFM.”

Thanks for this answer. It is less relevant to my most recent line of questioning which is related to noise generated inside the server by the over-taxed internal switching power supply, possibly affecting the signal processing inside the Node and transfer to the DAC via coax cable. Clock errors, electrical noise. I would nog rule out in this case added noise injected back into the mains affecting the performance of other components if the power supply in the Node is working at or near it’s specified limits, or even just generating more current than is typical to supply the mechanical drive.

kn

 

[castleofargh]

Thanks for this answer. It is less relevant to my most recent line of questioning which is related to noise generated inside the server by the over-taxed internal switching power supply, possibly affecting the signal processing inside the Node and transfer to the DAC via coax cable. Clock errors, electrical noise. I would nog rule out in this case added noise injected back into the mains affecting the performance of other components if the power supply in the Node is working at or near it’s specified limits, or even just generating more current than is typical to supply the mechanical drive.

kn

You're fishing, not investigating. Where do you expect this to lead? Someone ends up saying, yes, that's very possible to one of your ideas, Then what?
You have ideas and that's fine, it always has to start with ideas. But then, the "scientific" way is to try and disprove those ideas, not to go fishing for just about anything that might agree with your feelings.
You say 2 memory stuff result in a different sound, let's start with that. Can you measure a few things or just record a short passage of music with both and share that? It's unlikely to get you a clear answer about why, but it would give us supporting evidence that something is audibly changing, which, just in case the tens of pages so far about biases and testing protocols haven't made it clear, is not a fact for most of us.
Let's rewind a little and go with how you can convince us that they create an audible difference.

Edit: maybe in a proper thread?

 

[knownothing2]

Come on, none of this makes any sense and isn’t even possible.
1. How did you switch from a flash drive to a HDD without “any thought at all”? Did you decide to make the switch, buy the drive and physically do the switch all while you were in a coma or when you were sleep walking?
2. Again, a flash drive and a HDD look different right? I presume you also know that they operate differently, the HDD uses spinning disks and the flash drive just uses solid state memory chips? You also stated the HDD required a cable and the flash drive just plugged straight in. So how on Earth is it possible that you did not have any “expectations” that they were in fact significantly different? Indeed, if you had no expectations of them being different in anyway at all, what would be the point of switching from one to the other in the first place?

I appreciate you taking the time to provide your input. My answer to this set of questions is through all of my experience on audio forums, I have been told bits are bits, just 1s and 0s, and on and on like that. Furthermore, while I have been using computers since the era of punch cards, I was not tracking the development of external disks over the last decade. A year ago when I set this system up, I could not have told you that a HDD had a mechanical disk and was powered by the USB bus. I have since learned those differences. But yes, the HDD is bigger and has a cable.

In general, it is interesting that everyone on this forum seems to know more about my personality and state of mind than I do with regard to all things audio. Again, I come for the technical advice and get a free lesson in psychology. Such a deal.

kn

 

[Whazzzup]

I appreciate you taking the time to provide your input. My answer to this set of questions is through all of my experience on audio forums, I have been told bits are bits, just 1s and 0s, and on and on like that. Furthermore, while I have been using computers since the era of punch cards, I was not tracking the development of external disks over the last decade. A year ago when I set this system up, I could not have told you that a HDD had a mechanical disk and was powered by the USB bus. I have since learned those differences. But yes, the HDD is bigger and has a cable.

In general, it is interesting that everyone on this forum seems to know more about my personality and state of mind than I do with regard to all things audio. Again, I come for the technical advice and get a free lesson in psychology. Such a deal.

kn

poly sporen is being ignored. A little psych 101 can be dangerous, if it wasn't so funny

 

[bigshot]

Error in the server is the same as error in the drive. If digital is going to fail, it fails big. Big glitches or it doesn’t play at all. You don’t get subtle changes. You are hearing expectation bias.

 

[sander99]

In general, it is interesting that everyone on this forum seems to know more about my personality and state of mind than I do with regard to all things audio. Again, I come for the technical advice and get a free lesson in psychology. Such a deal.

You seem to think that bias influencing perception is a rare thing that only happens on rare occasion to a few people, [Edit: and that we think:] mainly audiophiles, and not to us. That is not the case. It happens all the time, to everyone, also me. It has nothing to do with your personality or your state of mind. The only difference between most regulars in this forum and typical audiophiles is that we are aware of this fact, while many audiophiles either don't know about it, don't believe it, or deny it.

 

[Whazzzup]

You seem to think that bias influencing perception is a rare thing that only happens on rare occasion to a few people, [Edit: and that we think:] mainly audiophiles, and not to us. That is not the case. It happens all the time, to everyone, also me. It has nothing to do with your personality or your state of mind. The only difference between most regulars in this forum and typical audiophiles is that we are aware of this fact, while many audiophiles either don't know about it, don't believe it, or deny it.

expectation bias, cognitive dissonance, purchase dissonance are well established, published, and understood. However the premise that differences between gear or components and not other gear or components throws a confounding variable into the premise. perhaps engineering and other hardware analogue or digital components plays a part. i have given a couple of concrete examples. but sure for the life of me I can't A/B these components blind so, i guess the the easy explanation its all bias, regardless of the permanence of these differences.

 

[knownothing2]

What a great example of my previous paragraph! You raise “a possibility” invented by audiophile marketers 2-3 decades ago, when that’s debunked as impossible or nonsensical you just raise another, “throwing spaghetti against the wall” ad infinitum hoping something will stick, all the while ignoring/dismissing the obvious! EG. Is noise a possibility? Yes, if you ignore the whole point of why digital audio was invented in the first place or if the power supply is faulty. Or, is it possible that noise could affect the clocking of the data? Yes, but so what, unless the DAC is faulty then it cannot affect the output. Or now, can a noisy synchronous coax signal cause some audible effect? Yes, if the DAC or server is faulty/broken, otherwise the effect is too low in level for it even it to be reproducible as sound, let alone be audible.

The whole clocking noise/jitter thing was debunked as audiophile marketing BS decades ago. The audibility of jitter has been known for half a century, the BBC published a paper in 1974 indicating around 200ns - 500ns (nanosecs) as being the typical threshold with music. There has been considerable research since, effectively confirming that. Probably the most comprehensive is the Benjamin and Gannon paper in 1998 (link here). From memory: 50 cheap consumer devices (mostly CD and DVD drives and players) were tested for jitter, obviously all on the market prior to 1998, along with the effects of coax cable with SPDIF (synchronous clocking) and comprehensive blind testing of trained subjects. The absolute threshold of jitter for the most sensitive subject with test signals was 3ns (average was about 10ns), the lowest with a specific music recording was 30ns, but with typical music recordings the BBC’s conclusion of around 200ns - 500ns was confirmed. But the actual measured jitter of these cheap audio devices from ~30 years ago was on average around 0.15ns!

This is interesting and informative but does not really explore at what point an overtaxed switching power supply could produce noise/errors that are non-fatal (I.E., resulting in complete loss of signal) but nevertheless audible. What if the jitter produced in the Node under these conditions were greater than 500ns? What if other noise is transferred to the DAC via the SPDIF connection that is audible? What if the overtaxed switching supply in the Node server is feeding added noise over typical background into the mains and that is affecting other components?

Your conments about testing this alleged outcome systematically are well-taken. Before I go to that trouble (recall in a previous thread I noted I have made some major changes to my system since I recognized this issue), I will search Bluesound Node threads to see if my finding has been replicated by anyone else.

I am learning something in this discussion about how digital music reproduction works that is helpful. I am also gaining plenty of insight into my own biases I didn’t even know I needed to enjoy listening to HiFi. (OK, that’s a lie. I was perfectly aware of potential biases and have always done my best to control for it in gear evaluation and selection, and I find the constant refrain as tiring as y’all do my spaghetti throwing.)

But I do get a sense of unusually energetic defense of the Castle of “science” in this forum that comes off as both condescending and a little bit paranoid. If you’re right, you’re right, and you should be happy in that knowledge. If you’re not right, you might want to be more curious, at least when nobody else is looking.

kn

 

[sander99]

regardless of the permanence of these differences

And I forgot to add to

while many audiophiles either don't know about it, don't believe it, or deny it

, or don't understand it.
For example seeming to think that permanence or repeatability is somehow an indicator against bias, seeming to think bias is always or mostly random.
(Next to many other misconceptions.)

 

[Whazzzup]

And I forgot to add to

, or don't understand it.
For example seeming to think that permanence or repeatability is somehow an indicator against bias, seeming to think bias is always or mostly random.
(Next to many other misconceptions.)

Permanence in non differences and differences are both bias?

 

[knownothing2]

You're fishing, not investigating. Where do you expect this to lead? Someone ends up saying, yes, that's very possible to one of your ideas, Then what?
You have ideas and that's fine, it always has to start with ideas. But then, the "scientific" way is to try and disprove those ideas, not to go fishing for just about anything that might agree with your feelings.
You say 2 memory stuff result in a different sound, let's start with that. Can you measure a few things or just record a short passage of music with both and share that? It's unlikely to get you a clear answer about why, but it would give us supporting evidence that something is audibly changing, which, just in case the tens of pages so far about biases and testing protocols haven't made it clear, is not a fact for most of us.
Let's rewind a little and go with how you can convince us that they create an audible difference.

Edit: maybe in a proper thread?

Yes.

kn