[BS5711]

Some people can’t see the wood for the trees.

As has been said, if you can’t acknowledge human biases any further testing is pointless and utterly unscientific. You have to remove the first variable or the rest is for nought.

It fascinates me how so many in the audiophile world think they are above the foibles of the human body. In fact it is probably the majority of them not just some.

Head Fi desperately needs other options instead of just the “like” button, a dislike and a chuckling face options would be a start.

 

[knownothing2]

Sorry, that link also doesn't indicate an audio quality issue. It's just expanding on the issue of drive not being recognized if it doesn't have its external power supply (which would be older USB 2 drives: portable USB 3 drives all can be powered directly off USB). It confirms that if you're running a USB drive that doesn't have adequate power, it would either not be recognized (typical) or may have issues indexing. Drive size also doesn't have any effect with a file's "audio quality". If a link about a media player is talking about drive size, it's typically talking about size limitations depending on file system format. FAT32 being the most universal for a device's OS to be able to read and write...but has partition size and file size limits. FAT32 is limited 2TB disk size (or partition size) and with actual file limitation: it gets into the inability to store large movie files, not a stereo song. ExFAT is considered more universal for various computer OSes (and doesn't have these file limitations). But some Linux based devices won't write to that format.

Right, which is why I said previously:

It is curious to me that the issue manifested in a slight but noticeable difference in the sound quality of the music reproduced when using the different drives, but not in complete or partial failure to retrieve and serve files to the DAC.

As one of the possible reasons for greater noise, less sound quality, I suggested previously that the current draw from the Node on the USB bus for the HDD was higher than for the SSD or the flash drive, and that was affecting the signal from the drive either in the cable or during processing in the Node, or both. The Node utilizes a built-in switching power supply that is probably completely adequate for streaming, supporting a small external flash drive or internal DAC functions. But supporting an external drive with more storage capacity than recommended and utilizing a mechanical drive mechanism am I courting trouble? Does the Node functioning as a server become noisier with external current draw approaching it’s operating limit but below it’s failure point (i.e., the point at which the external drives stops functioning and starts to exhibit the issues described in the link), affecting the quality of the digital signal provided to an external DAC?

kn

 

[bigshot]

Asked and answered. Your listening comparison is the problem. You’ve been told this over and over.

If there was a problem with the drives it wouldn’t be subtle. The drive wouldn’t connect at all or there would be major skipping. Your description of “slight flatness” perfectly describes what bias causes.

 

[knownothing2]

It doesn’t appear to have nothing to do with the hard drives.

OK, let me rephrase that. It doesn’t have anything to with the basic capabilities of the various drives to supply data accurately in general, and in other applications. It has to do with how the Node interacts with different drive designs and their demand for current from the Node, and that is what I hypothesize is contributing to reduced sound quality with certain storage devices. In another application with a more robust power supply and file handling format, this would likely not be an issue, or much of an issue.

kn

 

[bigshot]

Digital audio either works or it doesn’t work at all. There’s no such thing as a slight flatness. It locks in and delivers what it’s supposed to, or it’s a glitchy mess, or it doesn’t play at all. You’re applying outdated concepts from the analog era that don’t apply to digital audio.

I think your problem is that you only think of how things work when you’re trying to justify your theories or arguments. You don’t make an effort to understand the basics of how it works first so your theories might be based on how digital audio actually works.

I’d recommend spending a couple of afternoons just reading Wikipedia or other basic sites on how digital audio works… nyquist theory, sampling, bit depth, that sort of thing. It would help you a lot.

 

[Davesrose]

As one of the possible reasons for greater noise, less sound quality, I suggested previously that the current draw from the Node on the USB bus for the HDD was higher than for the SSD or the flash drive, and that was affecting the signal from the drive either in the cable or during processing in the Node, or both. The Node utilizes a built-in switching power supply that is probably completely adequate for streaming, supporting a small external flash drive or internal DAC functions. But supporting an external drive with more storage capacity than recommended and utilizing a mechanical drive mechanism am I courting trouble? Does the Node functioning as a server become noisier with external current draw approaching it’s operating limit but below it’s failure point (i.e., the point at which the external drives stops functioning and starts to exhibit the issues described in the link), affecting the quality of the digital signal provided to an external DAC?

kn

But you've linked to resources from the manufacurer's website that is in no way related to this theory you have that a drive's capacity, current draw, anything under the sun is "the point at which external drives stops" and can actually effect a digital file's audio quality. You're ignoring the manufacturer's description of USB mode settings just effecting number of files indexed, or not being recognized if it's a USB protocol that needs external power. Go back to my YouTube video: it shows you how any USB or ethernet connection doesn't introduce jitter. Noise is another audiophile rabbit hole: I really shake my head at "audiophiles" who will buy a rebranded D-Link $30 router for a "noise isolated" $1000 one. Noise interference works just as jitter: they're both irrelevant with USB connections--in which data is collected asynchronously. Try to think of this logically: these are devices designed to now transmit GBps of data (can be important data for governments or businesses, or for consumers, large 4K HDR movies with lossless 3D audio). You think a 2 channel song (be it lossy or lossless) is really taxing on a system? Since links you've shown don't follow your instincts, KinGensai's post is basically where this should end now. Show us any measurements that show a true audible difference with USB drives, or it seems you want to go around in circles trying to justify a bias (where you're really leaping beyond logic with the manufacture's documentation of storage format or USB mode that doesn't even mention audio quality).

 

[bigshot]

If you made it easier for people to share info with you, you probably would have learned a lot more by now than you have. There’s no conversation if you don’t listen or make an effort to understand.

The source of the problem is that you didn’t want us to explain how digital audio works, you wanted us to explain how your uninformed theories might be correct. But they aren’t correct and you won’t allow yourself to consider that possibility. Do we’re stuck in an endless loop here.

 

[knownothing2]

Asked and answered. Your listening comparison is the problem. You’ve been told this over and over.

If there was a problem with the drives it wouldn’t be subtle. The drive wouldn’t connect at all or there would be major skipping. Your description of “slight flatness” perfectly describes what bias causes.

With all due respect, I understand and agree with your point that it is not a problem with the drives functioning to their specifications. It is a problem with the Node being asked to function outside it’s designed performance envelope, and for me it manifested in reduced audio performance rather than failure. Another forum member suggested a test to verify if what I experienced is real and repeatable, and that has been discussed.

After this back and forth and looking into the issue a bit more on the Bluesound website, I am just happy that my Node is functioning as a server at all attached to a 2T SSD for file storage, let alone with decent audio quality. This is not recommended by Bluesound, but for me it is working to store and replay all of my digital music. FWIW, that’s about 1.01TB of music stored on disk.

kn

 

[Davesrose]

After this back and forth and looking into the issue a bit more on the Bluesound website, I am just happy that my Node is functioning as a server at all attached to a 2T SSD for file storage, let alone with decent audio quality. This is not recommended by Bluesound, but for me it working to store and replay all if my digital music. FWIW, that’s about 1.01TB of music stored on disk.

kn

I'm not sure if you do understand about drive technology if you're claiming Bluesound says a SSD that's 2TB can't work (and I have yet to see them say anything about types of drives affecting sound quality). People normally advise HDDs because they're cheaper and will be able to write data for many years. Again, the 2TB limit isn't about sound quality-it's the limit of FAT32. From what I read, Node supports FAT32, NTFS, and ext4. If you wanted a larger drive, then format it NTFS or ext4 (they don't have the size limits). People normally get HDDs for this application because they are way cheaper per TB than SSD (which is overkill as a music server).

 

[bigshot]

The problem, if a problem existed, would be playing the file at all because it couldn't access the hard drive. There is no way that the timbre of a digital audio file can be subtly altered. Hard drive or server or DAC- it either plays the way it's supposed to play or it doesn't play at all or it's a glitchy mess.

Your description fits an analog error, but not a digital one. It's more likely that you had your headphones on your head crooked than it is the hard drive.

 

[knownothing2]

The problem, if a problem existed, would be playing the file at all because it couldn't access the hard drive. There is no way that the timbre of a digital audio file can be subtly altered. Hard drive or server or DAC- it either plays the way it's supposed to play or it doesn't play at all or is a glitchy mess.

Your description fits an analog error, but not a digital one. It's more likely that you had your headphones on your head crooked than it is the hard drive.

Maybe so. I am learning on this thread from you and others - even if it doesn’t seem like it.

kn

 

[bigshot]

You're making it very tiresome for us to try to help you.

 

[knownothing2]

Your description fits an analog error, but not a digital one.

This comment is more helpful to me in troubleshooting than you know.

 

[bigshot]

It also perfectly describes perceptual error due to bias.

 

[knownothing2]

But you've linked to resources from the manufacurer's website that is in no way related to this theory you have that a drive's capacity, current draw, anything under the sun is "the point at which external drives stops" and can actually effect a digital file's audio quality. You're ignoring the manufacturer's description of USB mode settings just effecting number of files indexed, or not being recognized if it's a USB protocol that needs external power. Go back to my YouTube video: it shows you how any USB or ethernet connection doesn't introduce jitter. Noise is another audiophile rabbit hole: I really shake my head at "audiophiles" who will buy a rebranded D-Link $30 router for a "noise isolated" $1000 one. Noise interference works just as jitter: they're both irrelevant with USB connections--in which data is collected asynchronously. Try to think of this logically: these are devices designed to now transmit GBps of data (can be important data for governments or businesses, or for consumers, large 4K HDR movies with lossless 3D audio). You think a 2 channel song (be it lossy or lossless) is really taxing on a system? Since links you've shown don't follow your instincts, KinGensai's post is basically where this should end now. Show us any measurements that show a true audible difference with USB drives, or it seems you want to go around in circles trying to justify a bias (where you're really leaping beyond logic with the manufacture's documentation of storage format or USB mode that doesn't even mention audio quality).

I have reread your first sentence of this post countless times and I am still having trouble understanding your point. The Bluesound post on the Node says this about “Identifying Signs of an Underpowered Drive”. Notice these are not an exhaustive list of the signs, but rather examples.

Identifying Signs of an Underpowered Drive​

Indications of an underpowered drive include, but are not restricted to:

• The PLAY/PAUSE button on the player does not turn WHITE, indicating that the storage device is not being indexed.
• The storage device emits repeated clicking sounds but fails to start.
• The storage device does not connect or initiate.

*Typically, underpowered drives have a size exceeding 500GB or 0.5TB.


I did watch the video on jitter you shared. It is interesting, and I can see how jitter is no longer seen as an audible source of an error in modern digital front ends that utilize USB or Ethernet for asynchronous transfer of digital signals. From that and other posts here, I am assuming also that the signal from any of the external drives I used was transferred to the Node server asynchronously, so no timing errors were imparted in that process. Other noise perhaps, but not timing errors. But if the Node power supply is struggling to power an external drive, which is clearly a possibility given the caution above, then isn’t it conceivable it could affect the performance of the Node as a server, and potentially introduce jitter and/or other noise to the signal before it is transferred to the external DAC?

The Node only has one USB port which can function as either an input or an output, and I am using it to accept the signal from the external drive. Given that, the only way to transfer the digital signal to an external DAC is via coax or optical toslink, which as I understand it provides a synchronous signal that includes timing information, good or bad, from the server. Anything that happens to the signal in the Node could affect the signal output via coax, which is what I use in my system.

In the video you shared, the $8 DAC highlighted had passible jitter performance but nevertheless the narrator noted it was very noisy in other ways that could affect performance. Is it possible that the Node is functioning more like the $8 DAC than a $500 server/streamer/DAC when straining to power an external mechanical drive, and that could result in audible differences in performance as I have it configured at the speakers/headphones, all other things being equal? I am just trying to see if I am tracking your logic and that I am making my point clearly. I may be completely wrong here, but if so, I want to fully understand why.

kn