How do you measure sound stage?
Mar 8, 2024 at 9:34 AM Post #436 of 878
You can run into huge problems mixing on cans without speakers. Speakers reveal problems that headphones don’t. Like I said, I worked with a lousy engineer who did everything with headphones, and the sound on the show got all messed up. Unrepairable. It had to go to air messed up. It’s fine for personal stuff I guess, but not for production.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 9:38 AM Post #437 of 878
For what variables are components potentially relevant and below the threshold for human perception? Frequency? Timing? Loudness? Signal/Noise and distortion? Channel separation? Timbre? I think there is a mishmash here of classic bench measures of things like frequency response, thd, and jitter with the aggregate sonic performance of a piece of gear in a system as perceived by a listener in a room or via a pair of headphones. The original Benchmark DAC 1 measured very well, but nearly every reviewer reported that it sounded noticeably different from the Benchmark DAC 2 and DAC 3 variants, even though the designer said the “improvements” should be generally inaudible.
But what is the credibility of someone saying he's hearing differences between anything and anything else? When do you decide the guy has both great ears and listening skills, or that he's a fool, victim of his own defective test method that would still find sound differences from putting a pet rock near a cable?
The intuitive way is to just take the guy who agrees with me and decide that he knows his stuff(because he keeps saying I'm right!!!). I bet that's what most people do, and surely you can see how flawed that rational is when my own views on gear come entirely from sighted and badly controlled experiences.
The only thing strongly suggested here is that we might both tend to fall for the same mistakes and biases(like leaving one DAC with its +2dB over the other one and then talking about how much better the soundstage and bass are on that one).
Be it this or hearing threshold, only a controlled test has the ability to give us a statistically valid answer. Not having it doesn't mean we should take the laziest, least reliable method ever and decide it's now fully conclusive. The correct behavior should simply be not to claim to know with certainty what we do not.
Believing something doesn't make it real. Most people think they are above average drivers. Simple math disagrees.

The closer we are to hearing thresholds, the more likely we are to find people who start "hearing" entirely with their eyes. When sound difference is very clear and consistently noticed, the brain doesn't need any trick. It will still get influenced by extra variables, but the result should be close enough to the correct one about sound.
So now comes the zero-dollar question: is a listener usually capable of telling when a difference is too subtle to trust his brain about it, or when a sighted experience is too messed up to conclude anything about a device's sound? Of course not. If people could be trusted, the entire world wouldn't be using blind testing to get their reliable data on subjective stuff.




You brought up before, the possible influences of unfamiliar setting and stress in a blind test, and of course that is real. But it is in no way comparable to conditions that allow for false positive.
Actually, for something simple with a single task and focus, like a listening test, a little stress is expected to improve performance(not like it increases thresholds, but it will help focus). There's plenty of work on stress and the ability to perform tasks, we always end up with similar curves(goes up, the down). What changes is how complex the task and of course the inherent level of stress(soldiers and surgeons in action probably shouldn't be compared to a guy in a chair being asked to check a letter when he thinks he hears something change).


Obviously, I'm not here saying that people are always wrong and that there are never audible differences between anything. I'm saying that casual listening doesn't allow us to verify when people are terribly wrong or not. What is the value of an answer you cannot trust?
As most mistakes in judgement come from biases working in a systemic way on humans, why would having bigger numbers of casual testimonies improve credibility? They could just as well improve credibility about human biases.

I get the general idea that if we don't do the right thing for reasons, then we just have to fall back on the easier stuff. But we're already doing that too much for everything in the hobby. You get a graph for a pair of headphones, and now that's how that model graphs for the community. That's super dumb. What mic/coupler was used? What compensation, smoothing, placement protocol? Any other pair of the same model almost surely has an audible level of difference with the first pair. Why would a sample of one become the reference for all? Because nobody is going to get 100 pairs and measure them all before giving the results. Well, nobody isn't correct, the manufacturer surely knows better and even has a list of determined tolerances that are verified in a fairly strict process. But the data isn't for us peons.
And obviously that's no better for a guy and his 1 pair claiming that the model in general sounds this and that way. Both generalizing for no legitimate reason and making claims he doesn't have supporting evidence for.

The right answer is simple. Don't brag about stuff we don't know. Dare to say "IDK" when we have no good reason to be sure. That's the right way. We can always keep on sharing our feelings, but at least let's not pretend that our subjective experience of uncontrolled conditions is the very best way to know about sound. Because that will always be complete BS. And anytime an audiophile pretends otherwise, the rest of the world laughs at the hobby and its mindset from 1750 or so.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 10:11 AM Post #439 of 878
The objective measurements and even the manufacturer itself said no audible differences but no, you’re going to ignore all the objective evidence, go with reports from some audiophile reviewers performing sighted tests, who wouldn’t have much to aggrandise themselves with if there were no audible differences and argue that “Many of us have significant training in the scientific method”?!
So why did Benchmark build two subsequent models that cost more than double the original DAC 1 that supposedly measured “perfectly”? Benchmark is held up as an audio products company that values measurements. Maybe it didn’t measure “perfectly” after all, and the improvements made an audible difference. Since you can’t seem to hear audible differences in electronics and refuse to take anyone’s word for it who can, you will never know.

kn
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 10:29 AM Post #440 of 878
So why did Benchmark build two subsequent models that cost more than double the original DAC 1 that supposedly measured “perfectly”? Benchmark is held up as an audio products company that values measurements. Maybe it didn’t measure “perfectly” after all, and the improvements made an audible difference. Since you can’t seem to hear audible differences in electronics and refuse to take anyone’s word for it who can, you will never know. Sad.

And I ag

kn

Sales/Capitalism 101. New products need to be released to keep the company profitable when older models see their sales cycle slowing. Regardless of if the new product is meaningfully "better".

When Benchmark saw sales for the DAC-1 flagging, they introduce the DAC-2 to give customers both something to buy and something to "upgrade" to.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 10:54 AM Post #441 of 878
You can run into huge problems mixing on cans without speakers.
Yes, but I don't mix without speakers!! I use BOTH headphones and speakers in order to come out from the process with a mix that works for both. Years of trying out things combined with my understanding of spatial hearing has led me to realize that in respect of spatiality, it is best to emphasise headphoses (without ignoring speakers of course). When it comes to mixing bass, speakers are emphasise (headphones not ignored) and some other things are 50/50 between headphones and speakers. How is this workflow "mixing without speakers?" :rolling_eyes:

Speakers reveal problems that headphones don’t.
No crap?! Goes the other way around too. Speakers are bad at revealing excessive spatiality on headphones for example. On the other hand, headphones are bad at revealing issues with bass level in the mix and how room acoustics affect it. That's why I use both when I mix.

Like I said, I worked with a lousy engineer who did everything with headphones,
Yes, if you work with headphones only you can get lost with your mix, but I don't do that.

and the sound on the show got all messed up. Unrepairable. It had to go to air messed up. It’s fine for personal stuff I guess, but not for production.
I'm not responsible of someone messing up your show using headphones only.
 
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Mar 8, 2024 at 10:58 AM Post #442 of 878
Timing is vague, I'll assume you mean things like jitter which is measured in μs. Transducers can vary a lot more, but μs and picoseconds are inaudible to humans.
Not just jitter, but the sum of how the digital and analog sections of a DAC perform with other elements in the audio chain to maintain the pace, rhythm and timing of the original performance as perceived by the listener.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pace-rhythm-dynamics-page-2

The full chapter in the link below is behind a paywall, but this summary hints at the concepts involved.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780122135644500147

“Timing” is an important element in accurately reproducing “syncopation” in musical performances, one of the elements in composition and performance that makes music interesting and involving to listeners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 11:08 AM Post #443 of 878
“Timing” is an important element in accurately reproducing “syncopation” in musical performances, one of the elements in composition and performance that makes music interesting and involving to listeners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation
Timing errors caused by digital audio are something like a million times smaller than what is required to reproduce syncopation in music correctly. In other words they are utterly insignificant.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 11:47 AM Post #444 of 878
Not just jitter, but the sum of how the digital and analog sections of a DAC perform with other elements in the audio chain to maintain the pace, rhythm and timing of the original performance as perceived by the listener.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pace-rhythm-dynamics-page-2

The full chapter in the link below is behind a paywall, but this summary hints at the concepts involved.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/B9780122135644500147

“Timing” is an important element in accurately reproducing “syncopation” in musical performances, one of the elements in composition and performance that makes music interesting and involving to listeners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation
And which element specifically are you claiming affects this dimension? The only one I know of are phase misalignments in transducers connected by an improperly tuned crossover network. Some poorer quality hybrid and tribrid IEMs for example don't align the drivers physically or in the network to the scale of milliseconds differential, which can be noticable if it's high enough. The stuff you are talking about (DACs and amps) differ in microseconds.

The audible threshold here is measured in milliseconds, making those differences thousands of times below the required threshold. If it's not, the electronics are defective.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 11:48 AM Post #445 of 878
PRaT is a made up term to describe something vague enough to cover placebo. The timing of digital audio is more than capable of reproducing any pace or rhythm or transients you’d find in music. If there was an error, it would obliterate high frequencies first. But that’s extremely unlikely. If a DAC can reproduce 20kHz (accurate to within two samples), it has sufficient timing accuracy.

Pacing and rhythm are aspects of musicianship and musicality, not sound reproduction and fidelity. This is a good example of what I was talking about earlier- how audiophiles mix the creative and expressive aspects of music making up with the objective fidelity of sound reproduction.
 
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Mar 8, 2024 at 12:02 PM Post #446 of 878
Just a quick kibitz... Since the decibel scale is logarithmic, -70dB is far more than double -35dB.
Yes you are technically correct in regards to the actual amount of kinetic energy being represented, but dB as a concept is itself linear, and I am referring to a comparison between one dB figure vs another.

The measured delta is -75.2dB out of the ES9219 DAC, so I think I am accurate in saying a -36dB threshold is a little less than half that figure.
 
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Mar 8, 2024 at 12:04 PM Post #447 of 878
I usually talk in terms physical sound when I use measurement figures. It’s what we hear when we listen to music on our stereo system.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 1:35 PM Post #448 of 878
So why did Benchmark build two subsequent models that cost more than double the original DAC 1 that supposedly measured “perfectly”? Benchmark is held up as an audio products company that values measurements. Maybe it didn’t measure “perfectly” after all, and the improvements made an audible difference. Since you can’t seem to hear audible differences in electronics and refuse to take anyone’s word for it who can, you will never know.

kn
Exactly.

They'll claim to know what Benchmark does, what all audio manufacturers do in fact, what transients are audible and which aren't, what's "audibly transparent" (whatever the hell that means) who's susceptible to marketing, what you personally can hear and can't...basically there's no end to what they'll claim to know.

Notice, however, with no proof whatsoever. It's all just hot air.

But it makes them feel good to pretend to know unprovable stuff.

As you know, there's a word for it: religion.
 
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Mar 8, 2024 at 2:11 PM Post #449 of 878
So why did Benchmark build two subsequent models that cost more than double the original DAC 1 that supposedly measured “perfectly”? Benchmark is held up as an audio products company that values measurements. Maybe it didn’t measure “perfectly” after all, and the improvements made an audible difference. Since you can’t seem to hear audible differences in electronics and refuse to take anyone’s word for it who can, you will never know.

kn

What are they in business to do - make money.

How do they do that - sell equipment.

How do they best do that - offer their customer base new models.
 
Mar 8, 2024 at 2:14 PM Post #450 of 878
In this particular thread, I think you only have bigshot making big universal claims about (lack of)audibility. And Funky is doing his best to strawman his way into the make believe idea that objectivisits in general claim that everything is the same all the time.
Fair enough. I only use that phraseology as shorthand because it would make every sentence three times as long to add the "so long as it's being used for the purpose intended and is properly engineered and designed the same circuit type and ... (bla bla bla...). But perhaps I should invent a shorthand that covers those cases too.
Oh well, one guy, an entire community, it's the same thing. Just like how if I have one experience of cable affecting sound, the conclusion should be that they all do. Anecdote, universal facts, same same, but different, but the same...
And even then, bigshot never thought that all the devices in the world sounded the same. He's saying that in a general way, like saying humans have 2 arms. There is really nothing to be proud of by mentioning a one arm guy and saying "see, everything you say is BS!".
From my point of view, both are at fault and neither is proving anything. I don't like it because it leads to what we get here, some people who:
1/ think bigshot claims that everything does sound the same without possible exception.
But wouldn't you say his exceptions refer to times when there's a design or use flaw or user error? Are there times when he's admitted that properly functioning and installed...etc... DACs or amps or cables sound different? If so, I'd like to see it, and my apologies. I suspect not however, because of the regularly used phrase, " [X[ is a "solved problem". '
2/ think that because he posts a lot, it is the view of the entire population of the forum. Which bring us back, talking about the apparently really difficult to grasp concept that one and many are not the same amount of people, gear, or opinions.
Very fair critique.
If we wanted to define soundstage with measurements, we could most likely do it
What would the units be? One can't have a meaningful measurement without units.
well if the subjective reference was a fixed group of people and if all their impressions were done blind so that only sound that is being measured causes the impression. Then, for the most part I can already guess the results would agree with psychoacoustic as we have it today. Something based on a binaural system and a brain that cares mostly about FR and time differences between each channel. Under that concept, a DAC usually being nearly dead flat within the audible range and not fooling around with delays between channels, it would be concluded that a DAC doesn't have a role to play. End of story.
But of course, as you well state, that's a guess.

It is because we accept that very many more variables can have some amount of influence on a human experience, that it becomes impossible to make a non-chaotic model.
Exactly.
There are several software programs in use to place instruments wherever you like in a space, define that room fully(size reverb), and output that on however many channels you like. So at least objectively, we do understand, measure, model, simulate, room acoustic and sound localization for humans. But obviously, cables don't even factor in something like that. And if we were to extend a model enough to account for the few times and circumstances when cable swap does have an impact, the poor thing might rank 1800 on the exhaustive list sorted by priority and magnitude of impact.
Totally agree. And the key word is "might".

Your word choice is excellent, imho, because it doesn't claim certainty about things which aren't provable. I'm fully willing to admit that I and perhaps many others who listen for a living would fail all kinds of tests one after the next. But I'm not willing to admit that there is no difference in the sound of DACs as some sort of scientific fact, because 1) I've heard differences (I just put the Hugo2 up against the M-Scaled Dave and in one piece, the snare drum didn't only sound different, it sound like it was a different physical instrument being used in the studio) and 2) because it's by definition not provable.

By and large, it's not the "practical-in-the-real-world" conclusion I disagree with (I fully admit nearly all DACs sound very, very good by the standards of the old tape or LP days. I also admit passing a test would likely be hard (though not impossible, as I just 10 minutes ago showed).

It's the certainty that they know the unknowable that I object to. And my aggravation is amplified when these same people who claim to know unknowable things make the most basic, ridiculous errors. And aggravated even more with the insults they hurl about how people who don't believe their absolutist claims are "audiophools" and so stupid they do anything marketers tell them. If they're going to talk like that about people who have the humility to accept the possibility that we don't know everything about DACs, amps and cables, then they rightfully deserve a few insults thrown back (though I carefully try to critique the argument, not the person. God knows I've made bad arguments in my lifetime too).

To me, the issue is that there's a huge gray area to be dealt with that treating it with such black-and-white certainty disrespects. For example, there's no one in my world of recording engineers who would say that (with exceptions for misdesign/-use) amps sound the same. Every studio of any caliber has multiple mic pres that sound by and large extremely good (quiet, very low distortion), but different so that, for example, singers can get the most effective sound. Another example: almost everyone who has the resources to do so would one track through Neve or API preamps, say, and mix through SSL, instead of the other way around. This is because the preamps sound very different. Another example, a perfectly designed and engineered unbalanced cable that is too long and goes too near a source or EM radiation like an amp or a high current will pick up noise. This exact problem is why balanced electronics were invented.

Anyway, that's the gray area to which I refer that defies the certainty that is regularly expressed here.

And if you're going to permit bigshot and gregorio and others trash innocent people who come here with real questions as just stupid audiophools too weak to stand up to marketers, then I think someone needs to point out when those people say ridiculously wrong things.

If they said, "it may be that the difference you're hearing is due to [X, Y, Z] because testing has shown that it's very hard to hear differences" or pick your respectful, non-absolutist treatment, then it would be a different story.
 
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