[FallenAngel]

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear and now that I read it again, I'm really giving off the wrong idea, edited out.

 

[tomb]

Hey, Nate - you mean we're not getting paid for all of that work on the MAX? Uh-oh ...

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey, Nate - you mean we're not getting paid for all of that work on the MAX? Uh-oh ...

Whoops, cat's outta the bag now, isn't it!?!

 

[balou]

Tyll, you forgot to mention ppl - the man behind the LaRocco amps, the PPA, the Lisa II & III and others.

Quote:

those that can do some simple designing (knows to lay out componants around op-amps)

I'm hoping that I will soon be in the league of people who designed a working design on their own

(something like a 3 channel cmoy with a bit above average output current and low quiescent current)

 

[fordgtlover]

Thiis is a great discussion. It reminds me a great deal of the debate over commercial versus open source software.

I have two questions for all of you.

Why do AMB, Tangent, Morsel, PPL, Kevin Gilmore, cetoole and all of the others that I haven't yet run across (I'm relatively new), design new amps and then make parts available and provide support and guidance for those of us that couldn't otherwise build DIY amps?

Why do people like tomb and n_maher help in devlopment, build protoypes, offer advice and support to newbies?

My guess is because they love amps, they love diy, they love the community and they love the sense of doing something new. And, to some extent they get a shot at leaving something in this world that might live beyond them.

Commercial enterprises have to make product that will sell in sufficient quantity to cover all expenses including R&D. Commercial enterprises can't afford to release a new amp every 6 months because it devalues their previous products. Commercial enterprises don't release product to compete with themselves. They carefully segment the market and develop product to fit into a defined and understood niche.

AMB on the other hand can release as many amps as he likes because he is not seeking to recoup the cost of his own time. He, and others, design amps that they are interested in.

I remember reading cetoole's first post when he designed the new Millett Hybrid MAX. He said he did it because was bored. The DIY community commented and through efforts of tomb and a few others we now have a new amp that combines some of the best features of previous amps. This isn't revolution it's evolution.

The new Millett Hybrid MAX illustrates this point wonderfully for me. Cetoole took components from the public domain and assembled them into a form that offered benefits. I am buying some boards. Do I need a new amp? Of course not. I already have as many as I can listen to. I will build one for enjoyment. Do I care which commercial amp it is better than - or not as good as - of course not. I do it for fun.

To those individuals who make diy amps possible - a BIG thank you.

 

[amb]

And thank you for the nice words!

I have been DIY-ing hi-fi gear for decades now, and I'm constantly trying to outdo myself to make something better. With the advent of internet forums and "open source" style sharing of the designs and making them projects that a large number of people could build, it allows me to build better gear too. For example, in the distant past I hand-etched my own PCBs. But now, with great CAD software and by making PCBs in quantity, it's possible to have professional-quality 2-layer boards with soldermask, silkscreen and plated through holes at reasonable cost.

Also, making a project buildable by the masses involves real engineering and more discipline which ultimately also leads to a better design. By developing and fine-tuning a design in the forums it gets scrutinized by many people, some of whom are very astute and knowledgeable, also helps improve the design.

So, it goes both ways, I make my projects open, so I could design and build better gear, and many others could build them too (including those who can't design but still love to solder). It's a win-win situation.

 

[bhd812]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Threads like this are dangerous. Oftentimes it strikes me that people are completely ignoring many of the factors that contribute to the price of a commercial product, not the least of which is warranty support after the sale. Sure, 9 times out of 10 a DIY product is probably going to cost less than it's commercial competitor but few, if any DIY'ers are going to offer to replace it if it breaks in two weeks, not to mention two years. And when it comes to fit and finish there are precious few DIY'ers who can hold a candle to the commercial offerings. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you're only comparing things based on sonics it's not a fair comparison. Just my 2¢, Nate

very very true

 

[balou]

Quote:

This isn't revolution it's evolution.

This is exactly what Linus Torvalds said about the Linux kernel

By sharing knowledge, you don't have to reinvent the wheel each time. You can concentrate on making things better, if only very slightly. But if 100 people make a slight improvement, you're going to end up with a very good product.

[rant]
That's also why I despise closed source software and most patents, and to some degree the current practice of capitalism as 'way to go'
[/rant]

 

[fordgtlover]

I want to avoid the open source debate, but it is worth mentioning that Microsoft spends US$7 Billion on R&D and recently added another 5,000 jobs. I think that open source and closed source can live happily together. They each have an appropriate strength and place in a commercial world.

While all of the amp designers mentioned throughout this thread make their respective designs open, people like Ray Samuels and Xin don't. Each of these groups make choices about their approach. Those who pursue these activities for commercial benefit have a specific interest in not disclosing their circuits. While those in the open community publish the designs for the purpose of peer review for the purpose of education and ongoing improvements.

Then of course you have the Pass Labs approach where they manufacture commercial product but publish other circuits for DIY. They do limit the scope of what you can use it for. They only allow personal use. As stated in their agreement, they will hunt you down and prosecute you if they find you using their designs for commercial gain (BTW their disclaimer is one of the funniest I have ever read).

Pass Labs protect their circuits through the patent system and license rights to large commercial enterprises. In return they get money to support further development.

Everyone seems to think that Microsoft is evil because they spend a lot of money on R&D and then defend their rights. Nobody ever argues that Ray Samuels, or any other commercial enterprise, should disclose their circuits. I recall only receently on head-fi it was disclosed that a certain commercial hedaphone amp had actually copied their design from someone else. The copy was expunged from reviews and openly slammed by head-fiers.

I struggle to see how one system is better than the other. The market place dictates that there is room for closed, open and blended business models.

Without commercial R&D who would design the sxey new opamps and capacitors etc, that allow us DIYers to build amps that are better than anything commercially available only a few short years ago. It is often said that the Pimeta was state of the art only a few years ago. These commercial enterprises want return on their R&D dollar. While the individuals and open communities push the boundaries of new designs using the new components paid for by those R&D dollars.

As AMB stated "It's a win-win situation."

 

[oicdn]

See, the time is money thing skews EVERYTHING. Of course if you put your hourly wage on ANYTHING, anything is gonna cost more. Example? Sure, I like riding my bike, but if I had to put my hourly wage on it to find out if I liked one cheaper part more than the higher priced one, the higher end one is cheaper. It doesn't work...and in the end, all your doing is increasing your own knowledge and skills, so can you really chaulk that up to being more expensive??? IMO, you're coming out MUCH MUCH farther ahead than in just your wallet.

You can't do that for everything, it doesn't make sense. But when it comes down to the bottom line, which is the physical dollars spent, the DIY is the cheaper way out.

 

[jesse_w]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oicdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif See, the time is money thing skews EVERYTHING. Of course if you put your hourly wage on ANYTHING, anything is gonna cost more. Example? Sure, I like riding my bike, but if I had to put my hourly wage on it to find out if I liked one cheaper part more than the higher priced one, the higher end one is cheaper. It doesn't work...and in the end, all your doing is increasing your own knowledge and skills, so can you really chaulk that up to being more expensive??? IMO, you're coming out MUCH MUCH farther ahead than in just your wallet. You can't do that for everything, it doesn't make sense. But when it comes down to the bottom line, which is the physical dollars spent, the DIY is the cheaper way out.

Time IS money, especially if you're doing something you don't enjoy. If I DIDN'T enjoy building an amplifier, I would instead spend the hours upon hours WORKING and saving money and I would BUY an expensive amplifier and save myself the trouble--with lots of cash left over. It makes perfect sense, and it is basic economics. If you spend time doing one thing, you can't spend that same time doing something else--so you damn well better spend the time doing something you LIKE, or something thats worth the time to you.

I agree that you're much much farther ahead than your wallet if you build your own amp--but only if you enjoy it. I do. If you don't, and you're just looking to get a nice amp on the cheap, you will end up far behind your wallet. Think about it. DIY is not for everyone, and its not a cheap way to get an amp.

The bottom line is NOT 'physical dollars spent'--that is a fallacy.

jesse

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordgtlover /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do people like tomb and n_maher help in devlopment, build protoypes, offer advice and support to newbies?

The answer for me is simple, love and fun. I love seeing the joy that other people get out of building amps/dacs/whatever and to get to play an active role in that is fun, serious fun. Even when it means packing and shipping hundreds of pcbs and not getting paid for my time.

And since I can't design circuits due to a simple lack of time and energy I choose to participate in the most involved way that I can.

Quote:

To those individuals who make diy amps possible - a BIG thank you.

A big AMEN! to that. Most of us here stand on the shoulders of giants when it comes to the stuff that we build. I think it is key to let the people who so willing give of their time and efforts that we appreciate it. You can never say thank you too much, IMO.

 

[ruZZ.il]

you mean like each individual smile someone gets when they get that little package with a pcb?
thats creating hundreds of happy faces!

......(limited to 30... but you get the idea)

Thank you all that make it happen.